The Definition of "Christian"

[Danlikebooks 6]

I grew up in Cincinnati, where the vast majority of people that I grew up with were Catholic. Cincinnati is an interesting case in Catholicism, the majority of the city is Catholic because of the immense amount of Irish and German immigrants that came here in the 1800's. There are dozens of Catholic High Schools (I went to one) and over a hundred parochial elementary schools for each parish. The arch-diocese of Cincinnati is one of the biggest in the country because of this as well.

When I went to College, a few of my dorm mates were having a discussion about whether Catholics were Christians, and I was surprised to learn that most people do not consider Catholics to be Christians. Growing up in a largely Catholic city, this was news to me. I don't see why we wouldn't be seen as Christians, but whatever people want to believe.

[saltandsauce 0]

Originally posted by: morriswalters

Being an Atheist I find this thread interesting.  However you could speculate that the culture, as seen by outsiders, could certainly be called Christian.  Many of our ethical and moral codes are based off of Christian Philosophy, regardless of the individuals status as a practicing Christian.

quote>

yeah, stuff like monogamy are heavily influenced by Christianity

originally it was very un-Christian to charge interest on loans unless a re-payment was late. the practice of chargin interest was confined to Jewish lenders and was branded "usury" - one of those reasons why Judaism was hated

beware moral-relativism. it's a way of making everything right, even things that are wrong

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

I've said it before and I'll say it again: a Christian is a person who believes Jesus is the Christ and adheres (or claims to adhere) to the tenets set forth in the New Testament, with acknowledgment of the conserved portions of the Old Testament and other holy writings.

Since the Christian faith is so fractured, many of them often do not wish to accept other denomination's POV and claim they are not Christian. This is typical sectarian blather. Christians comprise all forms of Catholicism, all Protestant denominations, the Mormons, and even satanists. Muslims, obviously, are not Christian since they do not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Barbarossaquote>

Ehr Satanism? Dunno, but they dont really believe in Jesus and they certainly dont see him as a messiah. 

Even if they did, it shows the obvious flaw in your argument. You have a group that is pretty much the direct opposite of everything a Christian believes in and still, because of one thing they have in common they can be grouped together. 

Its like saying everyone who is baptized is also Christian. Even if they are Jewish, Muslim, Atheist or whatever. 

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

Been quite a while since this thread was active, so I will reiterate my position:

Christian ::= a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ.

In many of these teachings the old wisdom(?) of the old testament was set aside for the one great commandment:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with the whole mind and whole soul, and thy neighbor for the love of Him.

Followers of this ethic, without blowbacks to the ancient myths, can live an upright and productive life without concerning themselves with the old ethic of punishable transgressionsquote>

maybe we can simplify it even further.

If there are cross's or image of Jesus In your church your Christian.

if theirs a Star of David your Jewish

if your in a mosque your Islamic

if theres a chubby statue your Buddhist

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Catholicism is Christianity. We believe in in the ONE true Catholic Apostolic church. Mormons have no right to say that they are the best Christians and NO ONE has the right to say that Catholics are not Christians. I have read parts of several types of bibles (early modern English, 20th-21st century english, Mexican Spanish, Lutheran) AND I have read parts of the apocraphia.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Page fliper !

Good lord 5 post for it to show up

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

maybe we can simplify it even further.

If there are cross's or image of Jesus In your church your Christian.

if theirs a Star of David your Jewish

if your in a mosque your Islamic

if theres a chubby statue your Buddhist

quote>

Doesn't work for me.  I don't go to church except to attend ceremonies to which I am invited.  Oh, and you left out many-armed Vishnu and friends.

[Something_started 5]

I wrote a lot but hey, I had a lot to say. (: well biblically Mormons and anyone who doesn't believe in the Jesus with the extremely important aspects of Jesus Christ, who is God the Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity, God in human form, the God of the Bible, who haven't confessed that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (1john4:3) and who haven't repented of their sins and now are working in unison with the Holy Spirit to "clean up" their lives and get rid of sin and work out their lives, aren't really Christian because they reject Him the Christ, because they, not only are still in their sins and living in rebellion against Him (either ignorantly or knowingly) and thus condemning themselves. Romans is a great place to start. the bible says in MANY places about how the bible is sharper than a 2 edged sword and the bible is what Satan used to counter Satan's attacks during the temptations that Satan threw at him. see Matthew 4:1-11 its a good place to continue from Romans. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be "condemning" or "intolerant" but truth is the truth and people need to dig deep into the history behind this stuff because if they don't they are open to deception. I'm not exactly sure where I heard this, maybe it was in the bible maybe not, I'm not sure, but this stuck with me so deeply. and what it said was "you can have 99% biblical truth about salvation/Jesus/what God says about sin and judgment, but if you have 1% anti-biblical lies, that 1% could be the part that leads you away from Christ and then into hell. and there are LOADS of people who are going to burn because not only do they not know the truth but because they are deadly deceived into thinking that they are either fine, that God wont judge them, or that there is no sin or that God is not 3 in one. its not a matter of doctrine/theology/ect. its a matter of life and death get on your hands and knees and ask this "deity" people like to call what they believe in to prove himself and if it doesn't than ask the God of Abraham Isaiah and Jacob, the God of Israel, the God of the bible, who actually says that he has unending love for US (even though we constantly rebel) against Him, unlike the other "deities" that people like to imagine. look at the beginning of Islam, look at how JW's started off, look at Mormons look at wicians and notice how the pharaohs and Aztecs got destroyed. notice how they didn't follow the God of the Bible. I'm tired of this "lets be fair and be open to other peoples beliefs"

"why?" you may ask... I'll explain;

there cannot be dual realities. there is one reality. there is not a different reality for each person. yes each person perceives the one reality different, yes that is because we have been exposed to different things and different circumstances which cause us to think differently than the person sitting next to us. take an LCD T.V. for example I'm sitting at the side of the table of the T.V. I'm on the right. the color is distorted because of my angel. but just because I perceive the colors as metallic black with silver auras evolving on the screen, doesn't make it the real information that is going to the T.V. in other words what is going into the T.V. is pure black and pure white dots occasionally showing up on the screen. but I see it as slightly silver and the black isn't as black as I think of it to be. and the white dots don't seem as glamorous as they really appear on the main information. and now I take you back to the dual realities situation. just because anti-christians (anyone who is not for Christ. see Matthew 12:30) like to explain away that screen they see they don't realize that they are looking at it from the angle that inverts the screen. the information is still going into the screen as black backgrounds with occasional black dots. well the black background is the wicked sins and world and they perceive the good as bad and the bad as good and every thing is all flip flopped and messed up. why? because they don't know the source code. they don't know the coding, the real information flowing through the cables into the T.V. they don't line up on the narrow (Matthew 7:13-14) view range to see the T.V. like it should be. so everything is backwards. they don't understand how God could have possibly existed in the first place, they perceived evil as good and good as evil. which is why they cant understand the need for a savior to purge their sin away from them. see if you tell them that their experience watching the movie is going to be the best when the colors are inverted than your lying because the best thing for them is to watch the movie in that narrow spot in the centre smack dab in front of the screen. heh? the Bible is backed by history. I'm tellin you. I wouldn't risk getting banned from this site if this wasn't this important. I want to encourage you to pray to see who and what God is all about. regardless of what background you come from. God is a God of free will, He wants you to love him by choice not by force. When Christ came down he lived a perfect life, he never made any mistakes. he did everything in love. he did everything perfectly with compassion and holiness and humility. see it's a crazy thought to think that the Lord who created everything is willing to serve inferior wicked humans, as we are, but he is and he does and he loves each and every one of you who read this that much. see your wondering why I'm not just giving a bleh basic 3 paragraph defining why I believe what I believe and why I think such and such is going to happen in such a such way. its because I don't look at life as religion, I look at it as heaven or hell, truth or lie, yes or no. its one or the other its not you choose this I choose this hey that guy over there in 2nd street has another view and were all right! its not like that. there is ONE reality, there is One God, who has three minds, its difficult to understand, I've been studying the trinity on and off for 6months and its beyond me. it doesn't mean that it's a lie or fake, it just means that its too much for my tiny little inferior human mind to comprehend. and see that is where a lot of people like to formulate ideas about what they think.

see the average person, and I'll admit I'm guilty of this as a lot of other things, will give up on trying to learn what he can about a certain topic relating to God because its either to complex or because of some reason related to its complexity. and they either write off their own (un-educated, un-informed) guess about what they THINK that subject is about, but they didn't do their homework and see what there really was on that particular thing. see you need to understand that it is impossible to fully understand God. He is. and once you really understand how powerful the statement of "He just is" is, you will realize that He is the unexplainable. you could be standing in heaven a hundred times a thousand times a million times a billion trillion gazillion "years" from now with so much understanding of God that if you were to try and split up that understanding into sections and hand out each person that has ever lived on the earth that info they couldn't comprehend the slightest of just the introductory of the first few chapters you would have written about the Lord God almighty. and to top it off you wouldn't have even BEGAN understanding what God is really all about and who he is and the capabilities of His might and wonder and how much his LOVE for YOU really is! and even then by the time you could finally come back to your senses after that long in the ecstasy of the Lord that if he was to really pour out all of his love and glory on you than you would explode and die because of its effect on you. and that is why religion is bad. its because it's some dudes guess on what he thinks God is all about and it's his ay of trying to "impress" God and "work for God" or cook the Lord some dish He didn't order. all he wants is for you to be able to rest at His feet and just be glad and thankful that he died and went to hell and conquered death and got out of hell and sent the keys of Hades elsewhere, and obedience will come naturally. the knowledge of what sin is and how it messes you up will come naturally. you will see things differently, you will hear differently. blind eyes will be opened, deaf ears will hear. there is power in resting in the Lords thrown-room. there is power in just knowing that you don't have to suffer for something you did do and your God suffered for you! let me tell you for those of you who do make it to heaven, in just 400 "years" YOUR glory, the glory God gave YOU, will be soooooo great that if the heaven you were to appear here right in front of you you would bow down and attempt to worship yourself, and that is just YOUR glory, which is practically nothing compared to the Lords. but for those of you who end up going to hell, if you were to see yourselves as the monster, that is full of shame, you are there, here, you would freak out and be scarred for the rest of forever.

you wanna know why people don't know Christ like they should? why they aren't willing to sacrifice their own lives, why they aren't willing to give up porn and having sex with so many different people that they loose count, you wanna know why they aren't willing to give up all of their counterfeit feel good doses? its because they don't know the true love of God. its because they don't know the true gospel of who HE is! its because they don't know how vile and wicked and rebellious they really are. but did you not hear about the girl who was a prostitute and spend a year's amount of money to buy this expensive perfume just so she could cry and wash Jesus' feet with it? did you not pay attention to the line where Jesus said "she loved much because she was forgiven much"? she loved God A LOT because God forgave her A LOT! and you wonder why I'm hitting you so hard on this hell thing and Jesus being the only way, well its because you don't love much because you don't know that you sin a lot because you don't know that God died for your sins because you sin a lot because you don't know that He is real because you don't know what he is about because you don't know you don't know you don't know. well I tell you what, for every single person that reads this article, whether you believe me or not, God will show up in your lives, he WILL show you that he is who he says he is and I know that because I know that God wouldn't have convinced you to read this dauntingly long article for nothing. the Bible says that His word WILL NOT RETURN VOID. I'm tellin ya, get ready for some change in your life. get ready for somethin big. cuz things are gonna happen. The bible also says that the power between life and death is in the tongue and I just speak over every individual that reads this and I say that God will move in your life and if you don't know him than you will have so many chances and God will show you more and more and more and more and more and more about who he really is. but I'm also gonna tell you that you are not promised tomorrow. you are not guaranteed another day. your not even guaranteed the next 5 minutes. so I do say don't wait too long to make your decision. get alone, pray. you don't have to go too far to find the Lord cuz he is right there with you.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Something_started

there cannot be dual realities. there is one reality. there is not a different reality for each person. quote>

Reminds me of the old story about the blind men and the elephant.   Can any of us really know the whole picture?

As the saying goes:  God it too big to fit into one religion.

---

Looking at your statement another way:  assuming that there is only one reality (a questionable assumption but let's go with it for now), the vast majority of us do not experience all of it.  We each experience only part of reality.   In many cases, the parts we experience do not overlap very much.

Take a gross example:  I am a reasonably typical middle class suburban American.  If I need food, I go to the grocery store and buy it.  If I need water, I turn on the faucet.  If I don't want to be outside, I go into my nice condo where I can adjust the heating or air conditioning to suit my comfort level.  If I am tired, I go to my nice cozy bed and sleep.  For me, that is reality.

Now compare that to, for instance, the people in Slumdog Millionaire.  Not the main characters and their fictional story, the actual living people who can be seen in the background.   That was not a movie set.  That was an actual neighborhood.  Those are real people who are literally living in rubble.  Their walls, ceilings, and floors are made of scrap metal, cardboard, and tarps.  If there is clean water available, I didn't see it.  Sanitation is minimal.  For them, that is reality.

Am I experiencing the same reality they are?  No, clearly not.  The fact that we are in the same physical time/space continuum whatever doesn't matter.  Their reality is different from mine.

---

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: Something_started

Look at wicians and notice how the pharaohs and Aztecs got destroyed. notice how they didn't follow the God of the Bible. I'm tired of this "lets be fair and be open to other peoples beliefs" quote>

Whats wrong with Wiccans? They are still around. I know a few, really nice people. 

And yes, that last sentence. Just brilliant how in one sentence you discard the idea of lets be fair and open to anyone and instead return to the dark ages where we burn everyone who doesnt agree. How in one sentence you want to turn back the clock 600 years. Just brilliant. 

there cannot be dual realities. there is one reality. there is not a different reality for each person. yes each person perceives the one reality different, yes that is because we have been exposed to different things and different circumstances which cause us to think differently than the person sitting next to us. take an LCD T.V. for example I'm sitting at the side of the table of the T.V. I'm on the right. the color is distorted because of my angel. but just because I perceive the colors as metallic black with silver auras evolving on the screen, doesn't make it the real information that is going to the T.V. in other words what is going into the T.V. is pure black and pure white dots occasionally showing up on the screen. but I see it as slightly silver and the black isn't as black as I think of it to be. and the white dots don't seem as glamorous as they really appear on the main information. and now I take you back to the dual realities situation. just because anti-christians (anyone who is not for Christ. see Matthew 12:30) like to explain away that screen they see they don't realize that they are looking at it from the angle that inverts the screen. the information is still going into the screen as black backgrounds with occasional black dots. well the black background is the wicked sins and world and they perceive the good as bad and the bad as good and every thing is all flip flopped and messed up. why? because they don't know the source code. they don't know the coding, the real information flowing through the cables into the T.V. they don't line up on the narrow (Matthew 7:13-14) view range to see the T.V. like it should be. so everything is backwards. they don't understand how God could have possibly existed in the first place, they perceived evil as good and good as evil. which is why they cant understand the need for a savior to purge their sin away from them. see if you tell them that their experience watching the movie is going to be the best when the colors are inverted than your lying because the best thing for them is to watch the movie in that narrow spot in the centre smack dab in front of the screen. heh? the Bible is backed by history. I'm tellin you. I wouldn't risk getting banned from this site if this wasn't this important. I want to encourage you to pray to see who and what God is all about. regardless of what background you come from. God is a God of free will, He wants you to love him by choice not by force. When Christ came down he lived a perfect life, he never made any mistakes. he did everything in love. he did everything perfectly with compassion and holiness and humility. see it's a crazy thought to think that the Lord who created everything is willing to serve inferior wicked humans, as we are, but he is and he does and he loves each and every one of you who read this that much. see your wondering why I'm not just giving a bleh basic 3 paragraph defining why I believe what I believe and why I think such and such is going to happen in such a such way. its because I don't look at life as religion, I look at it as heaven or hell, truth or lie, yes or no. its one or the other its not you choose this I choose this hey that guy over there in 2nd street has another view and were all right! its not like that. there is ONE reality, there is One God, who has three minds, its difficult to understand, I've been studying the trinity on and off for 6months and its beyond me. it doesn't mean that it's a lie or fake, it just means that its too much for my tiny little inferior human mind to comprehend. and see that is where a lot of people like to formulate ideas about what they think.quote>

Notice the line in bold. Also another brilliant sentence. Just AMAZING! A God of free will! A God that points a gun at your head and says 'its your choice, believe in me or dont. But if you dont, youre going to a place where your soul will be tormented forever. But dont worry, I love your regardless!'. What an amazing choice! Just like that bank robber. He loves me, I know it, and he gives me a choice; give him the money or get your brain splattered all over the place. Its just spiritual robbery. We worship a spiritual bank robber. 

And a God of love. Well, you wouldnt say that by reading this post, seeing the obvious intolerance for people who dont believe in God.

And as for you not understanding the trinity thing. Its not because its beyond you or something. Its because it just makes absolutely no sense. 

see the average person, and I'll admit I'm guilty of this as a lot of other things, will give up on trying to learn what he can about a certain topic relating to God because its either to complex or because of some reason related to its complexity. and they either write off their own (un-educated, un-informed) guess about what they THINK that subject is about, but they didn't do their homework and see what there really was on that particular thing. see you need to understand that it is impossible to fully understand God. He is. and once you really understand how powerful the statement of "He just is" is, you will realize that He is the unexplainable. you could be standing in heaven a hundred times a thousand times a million times a billion trillion gazillion "years" from now with so much understanding of God that if you were to try and split up that understanding into sections and hand out each person that has ever lived on the earth that info they couldn't comprehend the slightest of just the introductory of the first few chapters you would have written about the Lord God almighty. and to top it off you wouldn't have even BEGAN understanding what God is really all about and who he is and the capabilities of His might and wonder and how much his LOVE for YOU really is! and even then by the time you could finally come back to your senses after that long in the ecstasy of the Lord that if he was to really pour out all of his love and glory on you than you would explode and die because of its effect on you. and that is why religion is bad. its because it's some dudes guess on what he thinks God is all about and it's his ay of trying to "impress" God and "work for God" or cook the Lord some dish He didn't order. all he wants is for you to be able to rest at His feet and just be glad and thankful that he died and went to hell and conquered death and got out of hell and sent the keys of Hades elsewhere, and obedience will come naturally. the knowledge of what sin is and how it messes you up will come naturally. you will see things differently, you will hear differently. blind eyes will be opened, deaf ears will hear. there is power in resting in the Lords thrown-room. there is power in just knowing that you don't have to suffer for something you did do and your God suffered for you! let me tell you for those of you who do make it to heaven, in just 400 "years" YOUR glory, the glory God gave YOU, will be soooooo great that if the heaven you were to appear here right in front of you you would bow down and attempt to worship yourself, and that is just YOUR glory, which is practically nothing compared to the Lords. but for those of you who end up going to hell, if you were to see yourselves as the monster, that is full of shame, you are there, here, you would freak out and be scarred for the rest of forever. quote>

Yes, he loves me so much that even if I dont believe in him (or choose not too) because of perfectly valid reasons (perfectly valid for flawed humans) he will torture me forever. Oh, but of course. That is just because I dont understand the way he shows his love for me. Just like last time some fundies tried to talk me into their church, he let it rain because I said no. Ahh of course. Still, I would very much appreciate it if he showed his love in more human ways. You know, the kind of way we actually understand and like. 

you wanna know why people don't know Christ like they should? why they aren't willing to sacrifice their own lives, why they aren't willing to give up porn and having sex with so many different people that they loose count, you wanna know why they aren't willing to give up all of their counterfeit feel good doses? its because they don't know the true love of God. its because they don't know the true gospel of who HE is! its because they don't know how vile and wicked and rebellious they really are. but did you not hear about the girl who was a prostitute and spend a year's amount of money to buy this expensive perfume just so she could cry and wash Jesus' feet with it? did you not pay attention to the line where Jesus said "she loved much because she was forgiven much"? she loved God A LOT because God forgave her A LOT! and you wonder why I'm hitting you so hard on this hell thing and Jesus being the only way, well its because you don't love much because you don't know that you sin a lot because you don't know that God died for your sins because you sin a lot because you don't know that He is real because you don't know what he is about because you don't know you don't know you don't know. well I tell you what, for every single person that reads this article, whether you believe me or not, God will show up in your lives, he WILL show you that he is who he says he is and I know that because I know that God wouldn't have convinced you to read this dauntingly long article for nothing. the Bible says that His word WILL NOT RETURN VOID. I'm tellin ya, get ready for some change in your life. get ready for somethin big. cuz things are gonna happen. The bible also says that the power between life and death is in the tongue and I just speak over every individual that reads this and I say that God will move in your life and if you don't know him than you will have so many chances and God will show you more and more and more and more and more and more about who he really is. but I'm also gonna tell you that you are not promised tomorrow. you are not guaranteed another day. your not even guaranteed the next 5 minutes. so I do say don't wait too long to make your decision. get alone, pray. you don't have to go too far to find the Lord cuz he is right there with you.

quote>

You know, Ive tried all that. Ive tried very hard. But yet, praying to God never feels like any real love like Ive also experienced, nor did it ever come close to an orgasm. To me it sounds like you are just deluding yourself, which is fine, your choice. But I would very much appreciate it if you didnt try to 'save' my immortal soul with the annoying preaching. 

Also, to any moderators. Im truly sorry if this post broke any rules. Its just that I get this compelling urge to respond to fundies every time they post their preaching. 

[saltandsauce 0]

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

You know, Ive tried all that. Ive tried very hard. But yet, praying to God never feels like any real love like Ive also experienced, nor did it ever come close to an orgasm. To me it sounds like you are just deluding yourself, which is fine, your choice. But I would very much appreciate it if you didnt try to 'save' my immortal soul with the annoying preaching.

quote>

there are plenty of people with mothers and fathers and siblings and the closest they've gotten to love is that praying bull--- that you've been hating

no faith that's wirth its salt is all cinematic like hollywood where you pray and a deep echoey voice gives you exact guidence.

what did you expect? a nice big hug from God?

also, it sounds like your definition of love is eros which is pretty narrow for a lot of people.

you get parental love, friendship love, the sheer delight in another's company. what about these types of love?

btw i don't care about your "immortal soul" anymore than anyone else on the internet.

living a "moral" life isn't supposed to be easy you know, all that stuff like fidelity, trust, hardship (this is different depending on Catholic or Protestant doctrine), desire and laziness are all the hard choices if your going to be "moral" it's not supposed to be easy.

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: saltandsauce

there are plenty of people with mothers and fathers and siblings and the closest they've gotten to love is that praying bull--- that you've been hating

no faith that's wirth its salt is all cinematic like hollywood where you pray and a deep echoey voice gives you exact guidence.

 what did you expect? a nice big hug from God?quote>

Oh that sounds like a dysfunctional family if the closest thing to love they get is the love from a dude way up in the sky

And of course I never expected a hand coming from the sky to shake hands or anything. But I also never got the feeling there was something, anything up there that somehow 'loved' or 'liked' or even 'cared' about me. Yet that are usually the things people who believe tell you what God and Jesus are doing. Jesus loves me. Jesus cares about me. God cares about me. Well I havent noticed a thing. 

Sure, I might be blind, and that bird pooping in my drink was a sign of God telling he loves me. But sorry, if God cares so much about me, he should do a little more to convince me. 

also, it sounds like your definition of love is eros which is pretty narrow for a lot of people.

 you get parental love, friendship love, the sheer delight in another's company. what about these types of love?quote>

Of course I know those kinds of love as well. I included them in the term 'love' when I said I never felt any love coming from God. 

 

btw i don't care about your "immortal soul" anymore than anyone else on the internet.quote>

Good, but you werent preaching. You werent condemning everyone who dont exactly believe what you believe to eternal damnation. 

 

living a "moral" life isn't supposed to be easy you know, all that stuff like fidelity, trust, hardship (this is different depending on Catholic or Protestant doctrine), desire and laziness are all the hard choices if your going to be "moral" it's not supposed to be easy.quote>

Ehm, how did we come to this part? I never talked about being moral and stuff....

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Ocram's Razr 964]

The Church of Latter Day Saints is pseudo-Christian. I have a Mormon friend and I never pretend that this is not true. The Roman Catholic Church has "corruption" but its policy, doctrine, and holy book have changed very little since Christianity was founded.

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

There is no flaw in my argument.  Explain the concept of the Anti-Christ without having recourse to the Christ.  The official Church of Satan (based here in San Francisco - or, at least, they were, not sure about the last few years) has NEVER denied the divinity of Christ.  They simply do not accept the tenets outlined by the faith and choose to follow Lucifer's rejection of it.  They are still eveloped within the Christian faith.  Look at it this way, even followers of Santeria are still Christian (and just might "hex" you to say otherwise).quote>

Hmm, Satanism isnt about the Anti Christ. They worship Satan as a source of wisdom and power. One of their core tenets is that they accept God (for without God there would be no Satan) but I never heard them talk about Christ. 

Or it is about lust and the search for more of it. Depends on if youre talking about modern Satanism or Old Satanism. 

But meh, I think its pretty fractured and half of the people who call themselves Satanist dont have the faintest idea what they are talking about. 

That aside, their believes, rituals, etc are so different that its just flawed to call them Christians. You dont call Christians Jews because they essentially accept and believe in the same God now do you? That is the same reasoning. 

 

No, that is faulty reasoning.  Go baptize a Muslim and then ask him if he is a Christian.  Obviously, he won't, since Jesus was just a prophet to them.  As a baptized atheist (you don't capitalize atheist, btw), I can tell you in no uncertain terms that I am not a Christian, only raised in a Christian family.

 Barbarossaquote>

According to (Catholic) believes youre technically a Christian once your baptized. 

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

And when I die and the Mormons come along to baptize my grave, they would say the same thing.  What is your point?  to defend organized religion's Number War?quote>

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but they don't baptize your grave, technically, they baptize you via proxy so your spirit can leave the waiting room and move on to the other rooms in heaven.  (I probably missed some terminology in there.)

This is why Mormons are into genealogy.  Their goal is to baptize everyone who has ever lived.

They consider death to be irrelevant when it comes to receiving the sacraments.   A friend of mine discovered that, when his grandfather got married, he first married his deceased fiancee, then married his current wife.   My friend thought that was very romantic.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

The Church of Latter Day Saints is yet another Christian sect.  Whatever you may think of them, you should not make any judgements until you have read the Book of Mormon and a Pearl of Great Price.

I have the same problems with the Angel Moroni and the Plates of Nephi that I have with the Burning Bush and Moses.  More mythology, no physical proof, so its all a matter of faith.  As far as I can understand, the Book of Mormon is merely more old testatment.

I admire the Mormons for their dedication.  Any I have known have been fine, upright citizens.

[spudnik 0]

Hi, actual Mormon here. First off, this may seem a little nit-picky but in the context of this thread I think its important - the official name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I think in a discussion of definitions of christian, it seems a little suspect when you drop the "Jesus Christ" from the name (especially when you are arguing that we aren't christian). I don't mind references to "LDS" or "Mormon" (because people widely recognize those terms) but "Church of Latter Day Saints" can be confusing as to who you are referring to.

Second, to clear up any confusion - we do believe in the Bible. We use the King James version. Our Sunday School course for this entire year is the Old Testament. I went to BYU and took religion courses in the Old and New Testament as well (they were actually required to graduate).

Third, you basically have baptism for the dead correct. It is done by proxy in dedicated temples. God requires certain ordinances to be performed in order for one to progress. However, not everyone gets to receive the necessary ordinances in this life so God has made it possible for them to receive it in the next. However, I know lots of people have problems with baptisms for the dead. Just so you know, for recently deceased (by that I believe its actually several generations) its required that you receive the permission of living relatives. Also, those we do perform ordinances for are not listed on any membership records. We simply record what ordinance work has been done so it isn't duplicated. Finally, God has given us all free agency (free choice, free will, whatever you want to call it) and that is not taken away after we die. It is still up to the spirit of the deceased to decide if they want to accept the ordinance we performed in their behalf.

Finally, I appreciate the plug for actually reading the Book of Mormon before dismissing/pass judgment. It seems most people I have met object to the mere existence of it, rather than its actual content. Its the most literal (and most repeated) case I have ever encountered of judging a book by its cover.

I appreciate honest questions and curiosity and will do my best to answer them or at least direct anyone to resources that may be helpful. There's a lot of misinformation and simple lack of knowledge about what I believe and its great to be able to help foster new understanding.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Thank you for clearing that up. I have read tiny little snippets of the Book of Mormon and from what little I read and also from the fact that a supplemental book is deemed necessary, I took that as heresy. I read that many Mormons believe that the book of Mormon is more important than the Holy Bible (which might not be the official belief of the church) so I took that as a sign of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as not being entirely Christian. I might just pick up the Book of Mormon (in addition to the Torah (in which the Holy Bible is derived) and the Koran (for similarities between the religions)).

I will stop judging Mormons until I have read about as much of the Book of Mormon as I have read any version of the Bible (which is more if you include hearing the little snippets in the Liturgy).

EDIT: I have been told by Mormons and Evangelicals that Catholics are not Christians so naturally my comeback was, "We have always been more Chrstian than you will ever be!" with extra fire in my words when talking to those that minimize the true, superior, value of the Holy Bible over other "holy" books.

I have also believed that a Mormon can be a Christian as easily (and no easier) than a Wiccan, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. The only way for any of them to be both would be if they practice both religions. There are examples of people practicing more than one religion at the same time so it is not all that far-fetched.

[catty-cb 4,412]

Originally posted by: spudnik

Third, you basically have baptism for the dead correct. It is done by proxy in dedicated temples. God requires certain ordinances to be performed in order for one to progress. However, not everyone gets to receive the necessary ordinances in this life so God has made it possible for them to receive it in the next. However, I know lots of people have problems with baptisms for the dead. Just so you know, for recently deceased (by that I believe its actually several generations) its required that you receive the permission of living relatives. Also, those we do perform ordinances for are not listed on any membership records. We simply record what ordinance work has been done so it isn't duplicated. Finally, God has given us all free agency (free choice, free will, whatever you want to call it) and that is not taken away after we die. It is still up to the spirit of the deceased to decide if they want to accept the ordinance we performed in their behalf..quote>

Having made the choice while alive as to what I believe in and what religion I follow, I would prefer not to have to do it again when I'm dead.

[spudnik 0]

Neither the Bible or the Book of Mormon can be considered "more important." I think we emphasize the Book of Mormon more because it is new scripture (relatively speaking) and people are less familiar with it (that includes Mormons too). However, I can't imagine my religion functioning or even existing without the Bible. Its essential in teaching us about God and about the life and teachings of Christ. The Book of Mormon and Bible are complementary and work together to create a stronger witness of Jesus Christ.

I'm kind of confused about Mormonism and christian being different religions though. From my point of view, practicing my religion is practicing Christianity. I'm not choosing to be one or the other (or both) because they are the same to me.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: spudnik

I'm kind of confused about Mormonism and christian being different religions though. From my point of view, practicing my religion is practicing Christianity. I'm not choosing to be one or the other (or both) because they are the same to me.quote>

The bible was created by a political committee at the Council of Nicea in 325.  The book of Mormon contains additional text.

Some people believe that the political committee managed to identity all there was to say on the subject.  They seem to believe that the additional text, which most of them haven't read, somehow manages to induce its readers to consider the bible to be invalid.  or something like that.

I don't get it myself.   Practicing Mormons' priorities are God, family, and work.  in that order.  They don't smoke, drink, or use drugs.   They find it morally wrong to receive welfare payments.  But, since they read an additional book, they are supposedly not christian in some people's eyes. 

[morriswalters 16]

Something to think about.  www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/28/AR2010052801856.html

[joshriddle 29]

Now, let me tell yall something about Christianity. People try to get into heaven by "works", saying that they go to church, or pray, or are kind to people, but man CANNOT get into heaven that way. And on second hand, man can't get into heaven alone. Only God can get you into heaven. Even if you are a believer, excellent, a good start, but still, you have to either willingly ask for forgiveness from your sins or God may just choose you, it could happen when you least expect it. And when you are born again, (not physically, but spiritully) you are a brand new person almost. You wont live for the world, but you will live for God alone. And of course, we all will still sin, but the conviction from the Holy Spirit will lead us to repent from our sin and once God forgives you, it is like it is gone. He knows of it no more. So guys you see, let us recap todays Bible study (JK)

1: No man can get into Heaven alone

2: Jusk ask, and you will be forgiven

3: Once spiritually born again, God puts his Holy Spirit in you to guide you, and you have to listen.

May God bless you all

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Works is not the only part of getting into heaven, faith is just as important. Neither is much more important than the other but everyone's good works must outweigh their sins in addition to having true faith. Even you Protestants believe that "Those whose faith is small but true are saved from damnation."

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: Ilikeseattle

Works is not the only part of getting into heaven, faith is just as important. Neither is much more important than the other but everyone's good works must outweigh their sins in addition to having true faith. Even you Protestants believe that "Those whose faith is small but true are saved from damnation."quote>

That would entirely depend on what protestant group youre asking. There are some groups that some people are predestined to go to heaven and others to hell and there is nothing that can change that. 

 Besides, religious gays. Ask any fundie and they will likely tell you gays go straight to hell, no matter how good they are and how much they believe. Just like people who run abortion clinics. Apparently, God hates gays. 

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

I find that concept odd.

I was always under the impression that nothing can separate man from his salvation (if he actually desires/ accepts it). I also thought that all sin is sin (if you consider homosexuality to be a sin), and no sin has any more weight than any other (one may ask forgiveness for literally anything). No man dies sinless, so how is that in particular any worse then perhaps cursing in your last breath or a malicious thought crossing your mind? Maybe I'm delusional. Maybe its just crazy fundamentalists (it doesn't seem to matter what religion they are, its usually bad news).

Hmm... didn't think I'd actually bring myself to comment here. Perhaps there is hope for the lurker after all.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

Originally posted by: Ilikeseattle

Works is not the only part of getting into heaven, faith is just as important. Neither is much more important than the other but everyone's good works must outweigh their sins in addition to having true faith. Even you Protestants believe that "Those whose faith is small but true are saved from damnation."quote>

That would entirely depend on what protestant group youre asking. There are some groups that some people are predestined to go to heaven and others to hell and there is nothing that can change that. 

 Besides, religious gays. Ask any fundie and they will likely tell you gays go straight to hell, no matter how good they are and how much they believe. Just like people who run abortion clinics. Apparently, God hates gays. 

quote>

That is why I am suspicious of Protestants. Lutherans are the only other Christian group that I fully agree with (episcopal is ok but I do not like some of their policies).

EDIT: Sexuality is a spectrum with women being the most flexible while men are usually 90%-99% straight or gay. According to scientific studies, even women who considered themselves straight or gay found themselves attracted to people outside their orientation; this almost never happened with men. The study also showed that there were more women who considered themselves bisexual. The scientists theorize that the reason is because women are more mental and emotional about their relationships and men are more physical and basic about theirs. That means that most lesbians can at least keep up a roose and marry men and be relatively content. In Japan, there is great prejudice against singles and homosexuality so many homosexual men marry homosexual women while secretly seeing their lovers; these homosexuals actually receive less prejudice than straight singles.

This means that people can go against their nature if they wanted to and "stop sinning" by pretending to be heterosexual and that this is easier for women.

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: SimHoTToDDy

I find that concept odd.

I was always under the impression that nothing can separate man from his salvation (if he actually desires/ accepts it). I also thought that all sin is sin (if you consider homosexuality to be a sin), and no sin has any more weight than any other (one may ask forgiveness for literally anything). No man dies sinless, so how is that in particular any worse then perhaps cursing in your last breath or a malicious thought crossing your mind? Maybe I'm delusional. Maybe its just crazy fundamentalists (it doesn't seem to matter what religion they are, its usually bad news).

Hmm... didn't think I'd actually bring myself to comment here. Perhaps there is hope for the lurker after all.quote>

Yeah, but say you steal something, you can be sorry, ask for forgiveness and never do it again. Gay people tend to remain gay since its not (unlike what a lot of fundies tend to believe) a choice. If youre gay, youre gay, just like when youre straight, youre straight. So, these gay people keep on sinning with their gay ways straight to hell. At least, thats what these fundies tend to think.