Georgia and Russia basically at war

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[belfastuniguy 18]

US forces to deliver Georgia aid

Mr Bush says the US stands by Georgia's 'democratically elected government'

President George W Bush has said the US will use military aircraft and naval forces to deliver aid to Georgia following its conflict with Russia.

Speaking in Washington, he expressed concern about reports of continuing Russian action in Georgia, and urged Russia to respect a ceasefire accord.

Mr Bush hinted that Russia could be jeopardising its international ties.

The first US C-17 military aircraft has landed in Tbilisi carrying medical and other supplies.

The Kremlin said the US must choose between partnership with Moscow, or with the Georgian leadership.

"At some time it will be necessary to choose between supporting this virtual project and [a] real partnership on questions which actually require collective action," said Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.

The BBC's Caroline Wyatt, in Moscow, says the Kremlin's reaction suggests they have been bitterly stung by Mr Bush's comments.

But she says Mr Lavrov spoke in the knowledge that the US is unlikely to back up its verbal support for Georgia with any more concrete action.

See map of the region

The crisis erupted late on 7 August when Georgian forces bombarded South Ossetia to restore Tbilisi's control over the region, where the majority of people hold Russian passports.

Russia quickly became involved, bombing targets in Georgia and sending in troops. Some 100,000 people are estimated to have been displaced by the conflict.

Russia must keep its word and act to end this crisis President George W Bush US sends aid, but rethinks policy In pictures: Tskhinvali in ruins Key statements on Georgia

A French-brokered ceasefire has been in place between Russia and Georgia since Tuesday, but each side has accused the other of breaking the accord.

Mr Bush said Russia's actions had "raised serious questions about its intentions in Georgia and the region".

"To begin to repair the damage to its relations with the United States, Europe and other nations, and to begin restoring its place in the world, Russia must keep its word and act to end this crisis."

He said he had ordered a series of steps to demonstrate "solidarity with the Georgian people", including sending Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to Tbilisi later this week, and launching a "vigorous and ongoing" humanitarian mission.

A C-17 aircraft with humanitarian supplies was already on its way to Georgia, Mr Bush said, and in the following days military aircraft and naval forces would deliver humanitarian and medical supplies.

The BBC's Natalia Antelava, in Tbilisi, says Mr Bush's speech was the first piece of good news the Georgian government had received for days.

But she said Tbilisi's schools and nurseries were crammed with refugees, many of whom were angry with their leaders for dragging them into a conflict with Russia.

'Dismantling artillery'

Following Mr Bush's statement, Ms Rice, who will hold talks in France before heading to Tbilisi, also had tough words, saying Russia had "seriously overreached" itself.

Russian and Georgian forces have been seen on the main Gori-Tbilisi road

She told a news conference: "This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia where Russia can threaten a neighbour, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it. Things have changed."

Mr Lavrov responded robustly to US criticism of Russia's continuing military action, admitting that his troops were still inside Georgia near both Gori and the town of Senaki, near the other secessionist region of Abkhazia.

He said Russian peacekeepers were dismantling a "huge amount of armaments, ammunition and explosives" that had been left unattended.

"This arsenal has to be defused of course so that it cannot pose any threat to civilians," he said.

'Massacres on our doorstep'

France, which currently holds the EU presidency, has been spearheading diplomatic efforts to solve the crisis.

President Nicolas Sarkozy visited both Tbilisi and Moscow on Tuesday, and succeeded in getting both sides to agree to the principles of a peace plan.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev had announced a halt to military action shortly before meeting Mr Sarkozy.

EU foreign ministers have been discussing the peace plan, and have agreed to send a group of monitors or peacekeepers to Georgia to monitor the ceasefire - but they want the UN to back the proposal first.

"The European Union cannot be indifferent to this war, these massacres on our doorstep," said French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said the UN was ready to facilitate international talks and contribute to possible peacekeeping arrangements in the region.quote>

[Fresh Prince of Wmbg 44]

First of all I think the Russian goverment is as much to blame for steping over the line by  invading a smaller country like that.( I think the Kremlin wants its former repulbics back) Then again, Geogria has a corrupt predisdent, who apressed the Russian minority and happens to be best buds with bush. ( Don't beilive me? See this video on youtube starting from 12:44 

EDIT-I belive that both nations are at fault and disgraces themselves probably at the worst time.( anyone remember that the Olympics are on?) This should be a time where should put away our difference and unite under sports.( Come on people ! Can you be nice to each other for once every 4 years?)

[belfastuniguy 18]

Come on people ! Can you be nice to each other for once every 4 years?quote>

Please....you talking about mankind...lets not get too optimistic.

[dabadon5 295]

At least things are getting better !

[Callbat 8]

Please....you talking about mankind...lets not get too optimistic.quote>

Indeed, one thing that will always prevail about humanity is our ability to put personal interests before those of your fellow humans, which, isn't necessarily bad (it would be rather dumb, after all not to look out for one's self) , although it has always been the basic reason for conflict amongst humans.

Of course this could just end up turning into another sensationalist media spectacle.

Let's hope they take it seriously and it doesn't.

[fukuda 351]

A big part of Southern Ossetians own russian papers and passports. The Georgian army bombarded not only russian citizens, but also people that they also claim being their own.

Ts'Khinvali (ossetian capital) is completely destroyed, even the scools and hospitals were bombarded by georgian troops. Unlike Gori, where only some buildings are destroyed. Russia did mainly strategic strikes and avoided causing heavy georgian casualties, they could have bombed the totally defenceless georgian truck lines waiting near the frontline and cut all the reinforcement lines. They didn't. Unlike georgian troops, who wiped out of the map sth ossetia.

Not to tell that Mr. Saakashvili's declaration of war against Russia was a crazy action, nice blind nationalist showoff. I hope russians will teach him how to behave.

But well, russians are evil and georgians good...

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[pnorrell 4]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Lastly, from what I have seen in the news today, Russia is saying the Georgian territorial integrity no longer exists (aka, Russia will take what it wants, regardless of demographics).

quote>

Don't forget that there are about 450,000 internally-displaced persons in Georgia from the previous conflicts of the 90's. These are ethnic Georgians who were driven out of Abkhazia and Ossetia by these same separatists who now claim a "democratic right to self determination." Sure - run out all the people who don't agree and then hold a vote!

There can be no discussion of "the aspirations" of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as long as the Georgian population that was driven out of those regions is not allowed back and not given a voice.

[fukuda 351]

The best part is that it's being sold in the media as a russian attack, when it was a georgian agression. I don't like Russian actions, but I don't support Georgia. And I hardly see how I would accept saakashvili's actions on their own (they claim so) civilians or any other country's ones, there's no excuse, you can't go wiping hospitals and civilians.

Despite the agreements on peaceful regulation of the situation in the zone of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict and contrary to the UN Charter, Georgia's armed forces illegally invaded the territory of South Ossetia on August 8, 2008. Using aviation and heavy artillery, the armed forces of Georgia attempted to seize South Ossetia, exterminating its civilians. Georgia has thus committed genocide of the South Ossetian nation, destroyed the city of Tskhinvali and other settlements, which resulted in a humanitarian catastrophe in South Ossetiaquote>

"In addition, Georgia attacked the military contingent of the armed forces of the Russian Federation, which was deployed in the region in accordance with international agreements to normalize the situation in the area of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict. This is classified as an act of aggression as per Resolution of the UN General Assembly of December 14, 1974," quote>

(Medvedev)

Originally posted by: pnorrell

Don't forget that there are about 450,000 internally-displaced persons in Georgia from the previous conflicts of the 90's. These are ethnic Georgians who were driven out of Abkhazia and Ossetia by these same separatists who now claim a "democratic right to self determination." Sure - run out all the people who don't agree and then hold a vote!quote>

 

Like Kosovo! Serbs were also driven out (violently) of Kosovo.

So, Kosovo can be "self-determined" and Ossetia can't? Why?

Even if this russian action was prepared since long ago, there is no excuse for georgian actions on Ossetia.

[pnorrell 4]

I don't mean to say that Saakashvili was right to attack and I'm sure there were South Ossetian civilians killed, which is tragic, but let's just wait until we have something more than Russian government statements and sensational Russian press accounts before we make any judgment about just how many hospitals and schools were destroyed and how many mothers and children were killed by the Georgians. I speak Russian and have been watching Russian TV throughout this crisis and I have yet to see any proof of atrocities. On the contrary, Human Rights Watch has been able to confirm only 44 dead in Tskhinvali.

As for Kosovo, I don't agree that Kosovo should have been granted independence. The last time I was posting in these forums it was about Kosovan independence and my main reason for being against it is that it gives Russia an excuse to back South Ossetia, Transnistria and Abkhazia. I think it was a terrible mistake by the west and we will have a very difficult time preventing Russia from recognizing or simply annexing these territories now.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[pnorrell 4]

That's a tough one... While I agree wholeheartedly that issuing passports en-masse to people in the separatist enclaves is a major contributor to the instability and also a thinly-veiled excuse for Russia to intervene militarily to protect "its citizens," the people who live there did not have Georgian citizenship or passports. South Ossetia began fighting for independence before Georgia even became independent itself, so there was no point when they could have become Georgian citizens. By the time Abkhazia broke away a few years later, they would have formally been Georgian citizens, but few would have had passports since they were rare in Soviet times and weren't needed after the collapse of the Soviet Union to travel within the CIS.

So... in effect they were "stateless persons," unable to travel outside the country because their travel documents were not issued by a recognized national government. Georgia would have happily issued passports to any who wanted and were physically able to apply for and receive them but nobody in the separatist areas wanted a document identifying them as a citizen of Georgia. That's how they should have stayed. If a group engages in ethnic cleansing and violently breaks away from the legitimate government of the country, resulting in the establishment of an unrecognized, illegal and effectively criminal no man's land, then there would have to be "inconveniences" for the population as a result. However, this is where Russia stepped in to provide passports and citizenship to them (and anyone who lived in the former Soviet Union who wanted it).

[Shingure 56]

I as well noted that something was going to happen in a neighboring former Soviet state after Kosovo's independence was recognized by everyone else except Russia. I think Russia is trying to win back it's territories though the means of confusing the people of these territories and taking them over one at a time. Plus Georgia isn't that large compared to Russia. Take a look. They can basically swallow Georgia nearly whole if they wanted to. I think that there is an alterior motive to this power struggle that is going on here.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: fukuda  Like Kosovo! Serbs were also driven out (violently) of Kosovo.

So, Kosovo can be "self-determined" and Ossetia can't? Why?

quote>

Which, toghether with Saakashvili's "initative", is a pure gift to S Ossetian separatists and the Russian bear. The West, and least of all the US, have nothing to say in this matter, thanks to their hot headed response to Kosovian independece.

Though it should be noted that Kosovo self determination means "Kosovo", while S Ossetia self determination means "Russia".

[Simtastico 0]

hmm, this is not an easy subject to discuss and there have probably been bad things done by both georgian and russian military.. that's what happens in a war. It is impossible to tell who is right or wrong. Whatever really, al I hope for now is that this will end in a good way.. I like to watch my olympics in peace!!!

[Yeah_Right 2]

Originally posted by: Shingure I as well noted that something was going to happen in a neighboring former Soviet state after Kosovo's independence was recognized by everyone else except Russia. I think Russia is trying to win back it's territories though the means of confusing the people of these territories and taking them over one at a time. Plus Georgia isn't that large compared to Russia. Take a look. They can basically swallow Georgia nearly whole if they wanted to. I think that there is an alterior motive to this power struggle that is going on here.quote>

you are wrong.

We (russians) are defending our peacekeeper boys in Georgia.

Georgian soldiers bombed rebels, while our peacekeeping forces were there, and got killed.

The rebels were not even a direct threat to the Georgian govt., and Georgia knew that we had citizens and peacekeepers there....

[Yeah_Right 2]

p.s

please cite where u get information from ^^

please don't believe what youtube or wikipedia says.

sorry for wrong english lol

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Yeah_Right p.s

please cite where u get information from ^^

please don't believe what youtube or wikipedia says.

sorry for wrong english lolquote>

Better believe Pravda then? I think people are having a hard time understanding why your "peace"keepers had to be defended so many places inside Georgian-controlled areas, like Poti. I've still not seen the Georgians feeling a need for defending their boys in Moscow and important ports.

And just to add to Sergei Ivanov's comments (Russian vice-PM), who compared the Russian reaction with that of the US and NATO after 9/11: It's total rubbish. He, and the rest of the administration, knows that it's a risky business handing out citizenship to foreigners living within a sovereign country's border.

---

For those who think it's not worthwhile seeing the Russian response to the conflict, there are several interesting reports:

Georgia used "mercenaries", among them Baltic troops (which aren't that happy about Russian due to their pas occupation), and Pravada also tells us that they've found African-American bodies (probably the US mercenaries they're telling us about in the title).

http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/conflicts/15-08-2008/106111-georgia_ossetia-0

When Georgia attacks separatists within their own borders, they're criminals, and Russian bombing the rest of the country are quite a-ok, according to Prime Minister Putin. Russia plays a positive and stabilising role in the Caucasus by ensuring that the numerous republics are weak in several spots.

http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/conflicts/09-08-2008/106048-putin_georgia-0

And we're all invited to "Speak the truth and shame the devil on Pravda.ru forum".

http://engforum.pravda.ru/

If you want a less aggressive tone from your Russian newspaper, there are the English language Moscow Times ( http://www.themoscowtimes.com/ ) or St. Petersburg Times ( http://www.sptimesrussia.com/ ).

If anyone have dug up other sources (including Georgian!), please bring them in.

[pnorrell 4]

Excellent finds, krbe. I had been wondering how I could illustrate to the rest of the world the absurdity of the Russian media coverage. With that kind of insane propaganda, how can we believe anything Russia has to say about this conflict?

[belfastuniguy 18]

Bush condemns 'bullying' Russia

President Bush: "Russia must respect the freedom of its neighbours"

US President George W Bush has accused Russia of "bullying and intimidation" in its military actions inside Georgia.

Mr Bush demanded that Moscow respect Georgia's territorial integrity and withdraw the troops it sent in a week ago - or risk international isolation.

The crisis began when Georgia attacked the breakaway region of South Ossetia, sparking Russian intervention.

Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili said he had signed a ceasefire deal - but that it was not a final settlement.

The six-point ceasefire agreement was brokered by France, and was presented by the US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, in Tbilisi.

See map of the region

It includes a pledge to pull all troops back to their pre-conflict positions, and a plan to begin international talks about the future status of South Ossetia and a second breakaway region, Abkhazia.

PEACE PLAN No more use of force Stop all military actions for good Free access to humanitarian aid Georgian troops return to their places of permanent deployment Russian troops to return to pre-conflict positions International talks about future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia

In a joint news conference with Ms Rice following nearly five hours of talks, Mr Saakashvili said he would never accept any part of his country being occupied.

He also criticised the West for not granting his country Nato membership earlier this year, saying that it could have helped prevent the current conflict.

Mr Rice said that Russia had to accept Georgia's sovereignty and territorial integrity, and demanded a withdrawal of all Russia military from Georgia "at once".

But as the pair spoke, there were reports of Russian anti-personnel carriers moving closer towards the Georgian capital, setting up a new checkpoint about 35km (22 miles) outside Tbilisi.

Earlier, the Russian President, Dmitry Medvedev, demanded that Georgia sign the deal immediately - but said only Russia could guarantee peace in the region.

'Guarantor' of security

In a statement at the White House, Mr Bush said he would keep in close contact with Ms Rice.

"Bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st Century," Mr Bush said.

Mr Medvedev said the EU-brokered peace deal was key to solving the conflict

"Only Russia can decide whether it will now put itself back on the path of responsible nations or continue to pursue a policy that promises only confrontation and isolation."

Three days after the ceasefire came into effect, Russian troops remain deep inside Georgian territory.

Meanwhile, after talks with President Medvedev in the Black Sea resort of Sochi, German Chancellor Angela Merkel described the Russian response as "disproportionate".

But Mr Medvedev said Russia was the "guarantor" of the interests and lives of those in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

He said they trusted Russian troops, and that this had to be taken into account.

'Peacekeeping mandate'

Mr Medvedev said he did not want to damage relations with other countries but that Russia had to fulfil its peacekeeping mandate, and that it would respond in the same way to any future attack.

He added that a new deal to base part of a US missile defence system on Polish soil was aimed at the Russian federation.

Washington - which says the timing is not linked to the Georgian crisis - insists that the shield is to protect against "rogue states" such as Iran.

Russia in control and on move Eyewitness: Gori's combustible mix In pictures: Georgia tension Day-by-day: Georgia-Russia crisis Russia angry at US missile deal

But, says the BBC's Jonathan Beale in Washington, the US is now likely to be less worried about Russian objections and more anxious to send signals to European allies like Poland that it is prepared to guarantee their protection.

Moscow's troops continue to operate deep inside the Caucasus republic.

The BBC's Richard Galpin, in the Georgian port of Poti, says Russian forces have taken control of the naval dockyard - with the apparent intent to destroy or remove Georgian military and naval equipment.

Russian forces still control Gori, which lies some 15km (10 miles) from South Ossetia and on a key route to Tbilisi, and there is also a major contingent near the town of Senaki, our correspondent says.

At a news conference, the Russian army earlier said it had seized a large depot of American-made arms near Senaki.

The crisis began when Georgia attacked South Ossetia on 7 August, sparking Russian retaliation. Scores of people have died in the fighting.quote>

 

From The Times

August 15, 2008

Russia accused of dropping cluster bombs on Georgian civilians

(Zurab Kurtsikidze/EPA)

The number of civilian casualties in Gori is unknown

Nico Hines

Russian military aircraft have deployed controversial and indiscriminately deadly cluster bombs on civilian areas of Georgia according to an international rights group.

Human Rights Watch, which is based in New York, said today that it has obtained evidence proving that the weapons, which were banned by more than 100 countries in May, have killed at least 11 people so far during the conflict in the Caucasus.

Cluster bomb systems scatter small “bomblets” across a wide area and can prove deadly to civilians - particularly children - who pick up munitions which have failed to detonate on impact. The bombs effectively leave behind a trail of landmines.

Human Rights Watch said Russian aircraft dropped RBK-250 cluster bombs, each containing 30 PTAB 2.5M submunitions or bomblets, on the town of Ruisi in the Kareli district of Georgia on August 12, 2008 killing three civilians and wounding five others.

The organisation claims that on the same day a cluster strike in the centre of Gori killed at least eight civilians and injured dozens. The Dutch journalist Stan Storimans was among the dead.

It would be the first known use of cluster bombs since Israeli planes used the weapons against Hezbollah in Lebanon two years ago.

At a summit in Ireland earlier this year an agreement was reached to ban the use of the weapon by 107 countries. Russia, along with the US, China, Israel, India and Pakistan, refused to attend the convention, which expanded the limits imposed by the Arms Trade Treaty and landmine ban.

Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of Russia’s General Staff, denied today that the weapons had been used in Georgia: “We never use cluster bombs. There is no need to do so.”

Human Rights Watch researchers said they had carried out numerous interviews and examined photos of craters and video footage of the August 12 attack on Gori.

They claim to have seen a photograph of nose cone of an RBK-250 bomb in Gori and video of more than two dozen simultaneous explosions at the time of the attack. Craters in Gori were also consistent with a cluster strike.

Doctors at the two main hospitals in Tbilisi have described injuries to civilians hurt in the attack on Gori that they believed were consistent with cluster bombs.

Keti Javakhishvili, 25, suffered massive trauma to her liver, stomach, and intestines, as well as hemorrhagic shock. Two other victims sustained fragment wounds to their legs and abdominal regions. All the wounds were consistent with those caused by submunitions from cluster bombs.

Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch said: “Cluster bombs are indiscriminate killers that most nations have agreed to outlaw.

“Russia’s use of this weapon is not only deadly to civilians, but also an insult to international efforts to avoid a global humanitarian disaster of the kind caused by landmines.”quote>

From The Times

August 15, 2008

US accuses Russia of campaign of scorched earth in Georgia

US raises the stakes with missile shield pact to defend Poland

Russian troops destroyed four coast-guard vessels and radar facilities in the Black Sea port of Poti

Tony Halpin in Tbilisi and Tom Baldwin in Washington

Missile shield deal adds to tension | Video: Journalists attacked in Ossetia | Kremlin paints US as villain

The United States accused Russia yesterday of waging a campaign to cripple Georgia’s ability to defend itself in the future.

As American military transport aircraft landed in Tbilisi to strong complaints from Moscow, the Russian Army undertook search-and-destroy missions on Georgian soil, defying the ceasefire agreement brokered by President Sarkozy of France.

Tanks and soldiers continued to occupy Gori despite promising to leave by yesterday. A Georgian military base in the city was destroyed and the Georgian Ambassador to the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe accused the Russians of laying mines before a withdrawal.

he Pentagon vented its anger with Moscow by cancelling two joint naval exercises involving Russian ships. In a clear sign that the Georgia crisis was escalating into a broader superpower conflict, the US reached agreement with Poland last night over the controversial missile defence shield.

Under the deal, the US will beef up Polish defences with Patriot rockets and place ten missile defence interceptors in Poland. Donald Tusk, the Polish Prime Minister, said that the US had pledged to come to the aid of his country if it came under attack.

In Georgia, Russian troops destroyed four coastguard vessels and radar facilities in the Black Sea port of Poti, which is critical to the country’s economy, and scoured forests and fields outside the city for Georgian military equipment.

The US said that Russia was deliberately sabotaging airfields and military bases to weaken Georgia’s military. In turn, the deputy head of Russia’s General Staff raised doubts about the aid delivered to Tbilisi on board C17 transports of the US Air Force.

“American military transport aviation say they are delivering a certain humanitarian cargo to Tbilisi airport, though they said we had bombed the airport two days ago,” Colonel-General Anatoli Nogovitsyn told reporters in Moscow.

“Let’s ask them: will they invite you to check whether it is humanitarian or not? What is in it in reality? It is of major concern to Russians.”

He said that Russian peacekeepers were conducting intelligence operations in Poti, adding: “If it is inside the peacekeeping zone of responsibility, then it is legitimate for intelligence, information and special groups to be there.”

Two US C17 transport aircraft landed in Tbilisi, from the US airbase in Ramstein, Germany, bringing children’s cots, sleeping bags, blankets and medical supplies for refugees displaced by the conflict, the United States said.

Air force crew were delivering the aid, but distribution was being managed by the United States Agency for International Development and the Georgian Health Ministry. Robert Gates, the US Defence Secretary, said that more supplies were expected to arrive “in the days ahead by both air and sea”.

The Pentagon is understood to have redeployed military spy satellites to monitor Russian activities and intentions in Georgia. One US official said: “When the Russians come across an abandoned Georgian military installation, they are not leaving them as is.”

Mr Gates ruled out any US military intervention in Georgia but warned Moscow that relations would be “adversely affected” for years unless its “aggressive posture and actions” came to an end. He said that he had been assured by Anatoli Serdyukov, his Russian counterpart, that Russia had “no intention of going into Georgia” and that the US had based its initial response on “what we were being told – particularly by the Russians”.

President Medvedev of Russia met the separatist leaders of South Ossetia and Abkhazia in the Kremlin yesterday as Sergei Lavrov, his Foreign Minister, declared that the world could “forget about” Georgia’s territorial integrity.

Mr Lavrov said that it would be impossible to persuade the two breakaway regions to rejoin Georgia and Mr Medvedev went farther, giving a clear sign that the Kremlin was preparing to incorporate both into Russia. He told the separatist leaders that Russia would support any decision taken by the two regions about their future. “We won’t just support this solution but will guarantee it, both in the Caucasus and the world as a whole.”

At the UN, Russia made clear that it would oppose a resolution affirming the territorial integrity of Georgia. Vitaly Churkin, Russia’s UN representative, said: “Territorial integrity has become a very thorny issue.”

Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, who is planning to visit Tbilisi today, repeated her demand for Russia to withdraw its troops from Georgian territory. “The Russian President has said that their military operations have halted. We would hope that he is true to his word and that their operations will halt,” she said.

Tensions rose sharply between Russia and another of its neighbours after Serhiy Kirchenko, the Ukrainian chief of staff, said that he would “do everything” to carry out an order restricting the movements of the Russian Black Sea Fleet. Ukraine, like Georgia, is seeking membership of Nato.

President Yushchenko of Ukraine signed a decree requiring the fleet, based in the Crimean port of Sevas-topol, to give 72 hours’ notice of any ship movements. But General Nogovitsyn in Moscow said that the restrictions would be ignored. “We have one general commander for the Black Sea Fleet,” he said. “It is the President of Russia and all commands from outside are illegitimate to us.”quote>

[belfastuniguy 18]

George Bush squares up to Vladimir Putin over Georgia

Tom Baldwin in Washington

In full: George Bush's statement | Journalist in brush with death | Ethnic violence warning | Text of the ceasefire agreement

President Bush dispatched US military hardware to the heart of the Caucasus yesterday and warned Russia that it could be frozen out of international bodies as punishment for its aggression in Georgia.

In his toughest criticism of Russia since becoming President, Mr Bush accused it of breaching the provisional ceasefire agreed with Georgia only 24 hours earlier.

He cited intelligence showing that Russian troops had again taken the town of Gori and could threaten the capital, Tbilisi. He insisted that Moscow respect the former Soviet republic’s territorial integrity. There were also reports of Russian-backed militia in South Ossetia looting ethnic Georgian villages and killing inhabitants.

“To begin to repair the damage to its relations with the United States, Europe and other nations, and to begin restoring its place in the world, Russia must keep its word and act to end this crisis,” Mr Bush said.

The US is in talks with allies about whether to suspend Russia’s membership of the G8 club of industrialised nations. There is a growing clamour to block Russia’s membership of the World Trade Organisation and to rescind an invitation for it to join the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development.

Mr Bush’s statement, delivered in stern tones outside the White House, was stronger than his cautious comments last week, which reflected the State Department’s unhappiness with Georgia’s use of force against pro-Russian separatist rebels in South Ossetia.

Although direct military intervention is not being considered, Pentagon sources have hinted that a limited number of troops could be deployed to support what Mr Bush described as a vigorous and continuing humanitarian mission headed by the US military.

The first US air force transport aircraft arrived last night, and the navy was heading to the Black Sea – which is controlled by Russian warships – to deliver humanitarian and medical supplies direct to Georgian ports. “We expect Russia to honour its commitment to let in all forms of humanitarian assistance,” Mr Bush said.

President Saakashvili of Georgia seized on the announcement to say that Tbilisi airport and Poti port would be placed under US military control, a claim the Pentagon swiftly denied.

Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, flew to France last night to meet President Sarkozy before heading to Tbilisi. Sergei Lavrov, her Russian counterpart, said that the US must choose between supporting the Georgian leadership and maintaining a partnership with Russia on international issues. Dr Rice said: “This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia, where Russia can threaten its neighbours, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it. Things have changed.”

The Georgian President had accused the US of squandering its support among former Soviet republics. Diplomats say that they have little leverage against a Kremlin in which the strings are still being pulled by Vladimir Putin, the former President. The most likely sanctions are those that would damage Russia’s prestige.

Mr Bush said: “Russia has sought to integrate into the diplomatic, political, economic and security structures of the 21st century. Now Russia is putting its aspirations at risk by taking actions in Georgia that are inconsistent with the principles of those institutions.”

David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, said that the EU should reassess plans for a partnership agreement with Russia. For the time being, measures being taken have been limited to a US boycott of a Nato meeting with a Russian delegation and the likely cancellation of a joint naval exercise.quote>

[Craig91 12]

George Bush s hardly one to criticize anybody about invading a sovereign country.

[Micah 16]

How about a sovereign democratic nation?

[belfastuniguy 18]

George Bush s hardly one to criticize anybody about invading a sovereign country.quote>

True, but that's not the point really.

Troops are in Iraq with the permission of the Iraqi government. There are some differences here.

I DO NOT want this to turn into an Iraq Debate, we have other threads for that, make those points and any future points there.

[Micah 16]

Shouldn't the title of this thread be changed?

[torontotransit 2]

right, so the US is OK to recognize Kosovo, which ILLEGALY declared independence, but when russia does the same thing for ossetia and abkhazia, its an invasion Booo hoo hoo. After all the US had no citizens in Kosovo, and Russia does. And while on the subject of Kosovo, your HOLY CNN and FOX network obviously told you about Serbian soldiers ethinic cleansing of albanians. Riight, but nobody ever mentions the GENOCIDES against Serbian people in all periods of history. And what about all the mass graves in croatia which all turned out to have serbian people inside. And ever heard of hundreds of thousand of bosnian CITIZENS deported or killed because they had Serbian background. And all the houses and serbians towns that the albanians scorched, and all the people they killed of serbian origin, and then thayre rewarded with a country. Yeah sooooo fair. Why do you think that kosovo was a part of serbia in the FIRST PLACE??? SERBIANS LIVED THERE!!!!!!! And why is there now only Albanians??? Because serbian people MAGICALLY disapeared??? I dont think soo!!! I realizze this is WAAY of topic, but it really makes me mad when people start *****ing about russia doing illegal things, when the US is WAAAYYYY worse!!! You`re probably thinking this guy doesnt know anything, he needs to watch more CNN!! I was born in serbia and lived there until i was ten, and when NATO bombed Belgrade, my cousins lost their home!! and all this WHY??? So that Freaking albanians can expand their territory. Macedonia is already screwed by recognizing Kosovo. Albanians have a province there too, and id say macedonia is next when it comes to Albanian seperatism. Then Montenegro, and then Greece would be next!! And voila: Greater Albania. And why do you know none of this, because you americans blindly believe all you TV networks

[pnorrell 4]

Off topic, indeed - but I sympathize with your point. You've got it a little wrong though. CNN definitely reported the exodus of Serbian refugees from Kosovo and there was a great deal of concern in the west that "ethnic cleansing" would take place under their watch, at the hands of a group they were trying to protect. The reason the enclaves of Serbians in Kosovo remained was due to the intervention and protection of western troops.

As for the public perception of what's right and wrong where the Serbs are concerned, I'm afraid after the Serbs' own violent actions in Slovenia, then Croatia, then Bosnia, then in Kosovo, the Serbs are automatically seen as the bad guys. That may or may not be fair, but it is not CNN to blame for it, but the Serbs themselves. It's hard for observers in the west to believe that every other ethnic group in the former Yugoslavia is evil and violent and only the Serbs are good and kind, when the Serbs are involved in bloody ethnic conflict after conflict. On the contrary, it looks like the Serbs are racist monsters...

[Yeah_Right 2]

Georgia are thinking of russian citizens and russian passport holders in georgia as seperatists.

that is why georgia bomb russians.

so we defend them, to make sure georgia stop killing russian people in georgia.

[Yeah_Right 2]

ntq, you are right, it does not look very good at all.