China 08'

[TheQuiltedLlama 34]

Originally posted by: tyhz

being the country with the most population in the world could make it difficult for any government to prevent poverty and even if one do reduce poverty in the mojority of the population it would take time.quote>

I don't see why this means Free Media is restricted, why it needs to block Internet Access?

Perhaps china now have a quite sizeable middle-class, but that doesn't magically cancel out the millions who live under poverty and oppression. 

[raja_indy14 8]

although i sympathize with the tibetans and the chinese that are oppressed, i don't think it can be said that the chinese government has no concern for the chinese people - else why industrialize, why not just sit in their palaces whilst the people starve, a la kim jong?  the plight of the tibetans can also be seen, i think, as a natural tendency for massive population pressures to spawn migrations and - often - the subjugation of neighbouring peoples.  for instance european populations expanded massively into the americas during their period of industrialization and population growth; while canada and the US both brutally oppressed native populations in their conquest of the western frontier - these crimes have still not been properly addressed by either country.  it is regrettable, but can westerners really criticize a country for doing precisely what they did in similar circumstances (settling other regions), is it suddenly taboo because it is no longer a western imperative?  from where do they derive their moral authority?

secondly, the communist government is harsh.  it is a party that ruthlessly and jealously guards it's single-party status, and it is constantly paranoid of any threat to it's authority - political, religious or otherwise (and they may have a right to be, the religious Tai-Ping rebellion in the mid-19th century killed 20 million - when instability rocks china millions die).  however it has also guided china through a period of unrivalled economic growth, millions are being lifted out of poverty; you may say that so many more remain poor, but development has never been an instantaneous process, and millions of chinese are seeing real benefits to their standard of living - to say otherwise would be naive.  some suggest that the very control and stability of the communist government has greatly benefited china, i'm not so sure, but i know my own government is hugely inefficient and apparently ineffective and doing anything more than a basic day to day running of the country.

the policies may be harsh, but how does one run a single-party state of 1.4 billion people, 120 million internal migrants, an economy growing at 10% per annum, with arable land and the environment rapidly deteriorating?  what country HAS experienced rapid industrial development with a truly free society?  many european countries began their industrializations under monarchs or dictators, the US may have been 'free' but for a long period of it's early growth there were millions of people enslaved, while suffrage was far from universal.  is it even possible for a major state to make it through the rapid early stages of industrialization - and all the difficulties it creates - with a completely free society?  eventually, with increasing wealth, the growth of a middle class, and education these forms of government are superceded by more democratic and freer societies, which is something that i think must happen to china - the floodgates of capitalism have been opened and the old order will eventually be replaced; whether the communist party fades peacefully away or in a spasm of violence is what we should worry about.

on the environment and work environment/wages i can only say that this is a country in the early throes of rapid industrialization, can we realistically expect that people will be earning US$5/hour off the bat?  or that expensive, environment saving technologies will be implemented at the outset?  look at 19th century London, the killer fogs and the appalling working conditions - it seems a natural stage of development.  the chinese gov'ts single priority is the creation of jobs and the continuing growth of the econo

[thesimbug 0]

i dont feel that blaming beijing for "neglecting" the majority of its still poor people is a quite just opinion. they raise millions of their people too from poverty to a much better living standard in mere two decades (1980-2000). its a revolution! a revolution for the most populous nation of 1,5 billion people from the extremely impoverished state in 1980! that some parts of the nation progress first then some other parts progress later is something which is quite natural n logical. beijing, without discounting its still authoritarian trait, deserves an appreciation for this one achievement i think. n as long as i read in the newspapers, beijing is seriously changing its concentration from developing the golden coast (beijing, shanghai, canton, shenzhen, etc) to developing the backward inland region (a region which we even dont ever hear the name of the cities) n the still poor lower class. the annual budget is increasingly allocated for the inland region n the lower class development.

but i think its interesting to raise some note that while we discuss the torch relay halting here, our own nations are massively buying chinese invading products n our own capitalists are going to china to produce their goods. 70% of goods sold in walmart, where we go to buy things, are "made in china". n what policy can we advocate to our own central governments to stop our own capitalists from being attracted to the very cheap, but educated n obedient laborers millions in china? we ourselves feed the red malevolent dragon, feed it fat. it is with this real economic power does beijing capture its opportunities including the olympics. n it is with such real economic power too does, im sorry, let me go a bit frontal, the country of some of you, the us, neglect the un threat of veto from france, russia, n beijing (plus disagreement from germany) n the worldwide waves of protest when it invades iraq, killing thousands of innocent civilians there, with unclear, unacceptable, n finally found deceptive reasons without being able to recover iraqs condition back to security. we may halt the symbolic torch relay for some days, but what alternative policy can we propose or what real steps can we ourselves do in the economic front to halt the red dragon abusing the culturally "genocided" tibetans in a longer time? torch relay halting is a good subject to discuss, but some talk on real economic stuffs may give us some deeper understanding.

[tyhz 0]

wise words

&

TheQuiltedLlama:

Please read the WHOLE post

[thesimbug 0]

belfastuniguy previously says:

China as a super-power is debatable. Several factors are needed to become a superpower and be classed as one, china is far from super-power status. Lets all remember despite the shiny new buildings and middle class an unbelievable amount of people life on basically nothing in china, what farmland it does have has been polluted, turning to desert or being developed upon....as well as countless other things...China is not as close as some seem to think to becoming a super-power. 

------------------------------------

thesimbug says:

at least super power economically, belfastuniguy.

n about the rich-poor disparity, thats today in 2008. mere 25 years distance from its extreme poverty state in 1980, its not only normal, its still a revolution. we should not think that those beijing leaders will stop building n stay idle for the next decades. their communist party faces existential threat from the massively growing middle class if they stop innovating. from newspapers we can read that beijing is seriously changing its agenda from developing the coastal region to developing the inland region n the lower class. in the next 2 to 3 decades, when china becomes the biggest economy in the world taking over the us, china will be in a very different face i think in term of regional n social equality. if in mere 25 years (1980-2005) it can start from an extremely poor condition n take over france, italy, n the uk, n become the 4th biggest economy in the world, china deserves a chance to show its another transformation for the next 2 to 3 decades. thatll be quite speedy too i think.

[harlem123 0]

@ the simbug i agree what you said and many of the informations you gave are totally right

But is this a reason why we have no right to critizise China. For sure it was totally wrong what the USA and GB did in the Iraq, but we get Informations about this in the media and because of this in many countries who helped in the Iraq War there was a change of gouverment (Spain,Poland perhaps in the States). The Problem here in China is that the people can`t change their gouverment and the people get absolut no informations by the media so they could critizise their gouverment. It is just totaly propaganda nothing more. And Tibet is a occupied country which is not free. The Iraq will be free in a few years.

[tyhz 0]

There are progress in china, but the country is still not ready to present it self in an event such as the olympics. Too many things about china are still debatable and from way the officials had dealt with the Tibet riot, it shows that they are inexperienced and in some case, foolish. I don't see how 08 olympics is going to make china shine, but it could be a good heads up for the 2010 Expo.

[TRNSTN 0]

thesimbug

You make some really great points, yes every country has the right to development but do the means justify the ends? I've read plenty of stories about impoverishment, and inequality within China. Yet the Communist manifesto that the Chinese Communists believe themselves to uphold, is all bout equality and being able to provide for everyone, including basic education and healthcare, welfare. That simply is not the case. Yes, it's a well known fact, American capitalism is one of the biggest exploiters of this cheap, almost unregulated labour across the Pacific, but why have the Chinese allowed such forces and massive exploitation of their own people to happen? Is progress for only 10~20% of the population really worth it while the rest of the country starves to death? How can there be Chinese billionaires and "rich" owners within a Communist country, that always ceases to amaze me. America has done it's part well, been a big bad bully with a mighty military, and have the free market as it's guidebook to lruning the world, they've lived up to thier capitalists intentions and they're suceeding. But, will the PRC, supposedly founded on principles of Marx and Lenin, allow that to happen? Looks like it to me, so pretty much China is lying to itself and its people.

If you look carefully, history is happening all the time, and China has not been absent, they've seen what unchecked development and capitalism do. The mistakes are there and the solutions are debateable but also there. The world has experienced poverty, injustice and social inequality for decades, hell centuries. Yet, China still continues to makes the same mistakes? Where's the pride in that? Just to get to where the West is in terms of economic status, is it worth repeating the same mistakes? I say China needs to stand up for itself and really take a good look at the values it once upheld. Right now it just looks like a wanna-be America...

[tyhz 0]

TRSTN

It might seem foolish for the government to allow such exploition to flurish, but if you look back in history when both the soviet and the chinese realize the need of reformation, they each chose a different path. Soviet tries to do a political reform, but failed miserablely after 2 decades, where as the chinese is still going strong. Progress for part of the population is much easier than say make everyone rich, how do you make your people rich when no one can afford to spend money?

[Haljackey 17,302]

This Just in.

China Reacts To the London Protest:

">

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ttSzWIFmIY&feature=related

China's CCTV makes it look like a walk in the park, trying to conceal the violence as the torch travels around the world.

This is embarising to both China and the IOC.

[yoshikoroyimara 5]

That is one the main reasons why this Olympics should go down...China just doesn't live up to the truth...it just lies, lies, and lies...constantly lies...even in the English channel in China (of course)...or their newspapers (learn Chinese to understand the lies)...so lets have a liar run the Games...in fact, let's have the liar broadcast solely the whole event...wouldn't that make it better? the opening ceremony would look so flawless...so perfect...I'm am not saying that Chinese people as a whole are liars...just the stupid government...

[Callbat 8]

woah haljackey how did you embed that?

[patriots_1228 51]

harlem-the fact that you said THE iraq makes you no better than Mrs. South Carolina

im too lazy for quotes, but whoever mentioned how we oppressed natives, hear this:

without any international intervention, the US admitted it was wrong, and now celebrates natives. They are in our government, our schools,etc, as american as me or any other person. However, do you think that 200 years from now, if no countries intervened, Tibet would be free? Would Tibetians be part of the chinese government, school system, etc?

I think not.

[tyhz 0]

patriots_1228

nice try, though I thought you would like to know that there are 55 different ethnic group(equivilant to natives)in China.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: tyhz patriots_1228

nice try, though I thought you would like to know that there are 55 different ethnic group(equivilant to natives)in China.quote>

I'm missing your point.  I don't know exactly how many native American tribes there are/were but I do know it it was at least several dozen.

According to some estimates, the number of Natives here when the Europeans landed was over 1 million.   Most of them, at least on the east coast, were killed by diseases like smallpox.   The awful policies of the government back then killed many of the rest.  Fortunately, as patriots said, we have changed our evil ways in that regard.

Originally posted by: patriots_1228

harlem-the fact that you said THE iraq makes you no better than Mrs. South Carolina

quote>

Let's not harass people whose first language is not English.  This is an international site.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: harlem123 @ the simbug i agree what you said and many of the informations you gave are totally right

But is this a reason why we have no right to critizise China. For sure it was totally wrong what the USA and GB did in the Iraq, but we get Informations about this in the media and because of this in many countries who helped in the Iraq War there was a change of gouverment (Spain,Poland perhaps in the States). The Problem here in China is that the people can`t change their gouverment and the people get absolut no informations by the media so they could critizise their gouverment. It is just totaly propaganda nothing more. And Tibet is a occupied country which is not free. The Iraq will be free in a few years.quote>

Will the government lock access to Simtropolis if they discover this post?

[belfastuniguy 18]

on the environment and work environment/wages i can only say that this is a country in the early throes of rapid industrialization, can we realistically expect that people will be earning US$5/hour off the bat? or that expensive, environment saving technologies will be implemented at the outset? look at 19th century London, the killer fogs and the appalling working conditions - it seems a natural stage of developmentquote>

Firstly that arguement is flawed when the United Kingdom industrialised it did so as a result or remarkable innovation and invention for the era. In the 19th Century green technology did not exist. China does have the ability today to industrialise and make use of environmentally friendly technology and not built thousands of heavily polluting power stations so yes they can develop while at the same time protect the environment.

The fact remains that the Chinese government has allowed cheap and dirty industry to flourish and not enforce strict environment controls that we have in Europe and the United States to a lesser extend. We have learned from our past in terms of damaging industry and the Chinese have failed to take those lessons on board and as such their main rivers are nearly dead, their farmland had acid rain falling onto it or its turning to desert and its air is some of the most polluted in the world. That is not progress in my view.

at least super power economically, belfastuniguy.

n about the rich-poor disparity, thats today in 2008. mere 25 years distance from its extreme poverty state in 1980, its not only normal, its still a revolution. we should not think that those beijing leaders will stop building n stay idle for the next decades. their communist party faces existential threat from the massively growing middle class if they stop innovating. from newspapers we can read that beijing is seriously changing its agenda from developing the coastal region to developing the inland region n the lower class. in the next 2 to 3 decades, when china becomes the biggest economy in the world taking over the us, china will be in a very different face i think in term of regional n social equality. if in mere 25 years (1980-2000) it can start from an extremely poor condition n take over france, italy, n the uk, n become the 4th biggest economy in the world, china deserves a chance to show its another transformation for the next 2 to 3 decades. thatll be quite speedy too i think.quote>

Superpower status is not just determined by economic progress. GDP measurement itself is a flawed tool to determine the economic health of a country and its power. Other issues must be looked at including, average income, inflation, life expectancy, health, education, political and civil freedoms, environment and other social aspects.

China may have a large GDP but that does not make it more economically powerful that the USA, UK or other European nations.

Remember that should 'western' nations go into economic recession then China will suffer a great deal. Its economic success has and still is dependant on the economic stability and consumer demand in the developed nations.

although i sympathize with the tibetans and the chinese that are oppressed, i don't think it can be said that the chinese government has no concern for the chinese people - else why industrializequote>

To keep the Chinese people in poverty does have a benefit for the government. As we have seen greater economic freedom and a growing middle class is proving problematic for the Chinese government. Protests have erupted in opposition to the building of polluting factories and even in Shanghai in opposition to the further expansion of the Maglev line. The more rich the Chinese people get the more they will dema

[patriots_1228 51]

Originally posted by: tyhz patriots_1228

nice try, though I thought you would like to know that there are 55 different ethnic group(equivilant to natives)in China.quote>

 

give me an hour and a textbook and i could name 55 tribes native to america. Pretty much everywhere has tons of native tribes, but, still, thats very irrelevant to what i was saying?

[tyhz 0]

May be I wasn't making my point here, but when I say ethnic groups I meant groups with completely different culture, history and language, not tribes. If you want to count tribes there would be hundreds. If you say that the tibet is not going to be free than what of the other 54. And since they are not free, they had 50 years to protest, but they do it now, why? Isn't the protest more of a political statement than a peace staement?

[belfastuniguy 18]

May be I wasn't making my point here, but when I say ethnic groups I meant groups with completely different culture, history and language, not tribes. If you want to count tribes there would be hundreds. If you say that the tibet is not going to be free than what of the other 54. And since they are not free, they had 50 years to protest, but they do it now, why? Isn't the protest more of a political statement than a peace staement?quote>

It would seem that you fail to see the problems that forcing all those diverse groups to live under one authority does. It creates the breeding ground for protest and potential violence.

Tibet has always been calling for autonomy since it lost it. The Olympics have allowed the people of Tibet and those that support it to have their voice heard.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: tyhz

May be I wasn't making my point here, but when I say ethnic groups I meant groups with completely different culture, history and language, not tribes. quote>

I'm still confused.  Many tribes have a different culture, history, and language.   What is the distinction between an ethnic group and a tribe?

Many part of the confusion here lies in the fact that most Americans (myself included) are not 100% anything.  Most of us have a mixed ethnic background.

[tyhz 0]

It would seem that you fail to see the problems that forcing all those diverse groups to live under one authority does. It creates the breeding ground for protest and potential violence.

Tibet has always been calling for autonomy since it lost it. The Olympics have allowed the people of Tibet and those that support it to have their voice heard.quote>

 

You've got a point, but isn't having diverse groups under one authority a problem for many nations? 

[patriots_1228 51]

no. Its what makes a nation go. Without the irish, german, all the african americans (they never bothered to record or at least make a big deal of the specific tribe/country they came from, so we just know they were slaves), british, polish, etc. immigrants, the US would not be here. Had we been all british, we would not be here. And so on.

having Diverse groups under one authority is only a problem when one group has all the power. now you could use the US as an example, but you would be failing to realize that whites can be broken up into several different backgrounds.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Exactly Patriots.

countless diverse groups can co-exist without problems if the culture of those groups is respected and no-one group is given all or most of the authority or power. This has shown to cause problems across the world whether it be in the Balkans, Northern Ireland, China, Australia and so on.

Once people understand that everyone is equal and respects their rights then the country will be stable and without major conflict. Issues in the future may seek to test that stability, but in general it can be solved through dialogue and better understanding.

[harlem123 0]

But you can

[tyhz 0]

patriots_1228,

belfastuniguy:

thank you for the explaination, though it's unfortunate that China will not likely reach total stability. The dominent Han people has been in dominence for centuries, and no ethnic group is large enough to challenge it.

[patriots_1228 51]

I'd die before letting Mexico occupy us. Viva Le Resistance!

[sakarr 1]

Originally posted by: patriots_1228 I'd die before letting Mexico occupy us. Viva Le Resistance!

quote>

 

ahahaha

im with you in that!

[harlem123 0]

Originally posted by: patriots_1228 I'd die before letting Mexico occupy us. Viva Le Resistance!

quote>

That is what i mean perhaps you can now understand the Tibetians.

[belfastuniguy 18]

The people of Tibet do not want to break away from China, they simply want autonomy and ad end to the repressive policies of the Chinese government. Mexico invading the USA is a completely different situation.