Fidel Castro Resigns!

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Duke87 prin¢iple$. quote>

Exactly.

Originally posted by: NMUSpidey Heck, there isn't even any more central planning!quote>

Oh yes there is, they'll be starting with Universal Healthcare since the capitalist model didn't work.

[patriots_1228 51]

Cubans live so long cause of the cigars.

krbe-idk bout the chinese, but i'd rather my sky not be piss yellow than have universal healthcare

[Frankie_Grove 32]

We did have an embargo on China. Bill Clinton lifted it (the EU weapons embargo is still there through).

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: Boggy1 To those saying why people are fleeing Cuba...Cuba's economy is in a very sorry state right now. They are still being forced to drive 1950s cars, they are using 30 year old computers, there is barely enough food to go around, etcetera etcetera. So of course you would want to leave. But why has all this happened to Cuba? The US embargo. It's the US's fault.

I never said Cuba was sucessful, it just has been one of the most successful communists states in the world. As mentioned, its health and education system far outperforms the USA and most of the rest of the world.quote>

It's not because of the US embargo.  When Castro took control of the country, at first, he allowed anyone to leave who wanted to leave.  Over time, so many people left that he had to shut that off.

Originally posted by: krbe

Originally posted by: Voar Tok

Originally posted by: Boggy1 Maybe I'm going to be lynched for saying this, but I'm kinda sorry to see him go. Sure, his human rights policy hasn't been all that good, but Cuba is one of the most sucessful communist states on the planet. They have some of the best healthcare and education in the entire world. The United State's ridiculous and disgusting stance on Cuba and communism in general is appaling. The trade embargo is making lives for the Cubans far far worse, they are still using 1960s technology for day to day things for instance. Maybe if the USA would grow up and not start trying to force regime changes on everything just because it would be good for their own interests, then Cuba might really start to prosper.quote>

Last I checked, among other things, the Bay of Pigs was not near Europe.

Granted, that's not exactly an issue anymore, but it kind of made sense at the time.  Frankly, seeing as how Fidel Castro was in power when that happened, and it can be pretty well argued that the Cuban missile crisis was a result of that, it made sense to keep the thing in place till Castro was gone.  Now that it's gone, we'll see how it goes.quote>

Who needs Cuba when you have the Soviet Union/Russia on your doorsteps? ANd remember, even equipping Osama with some nice guns and pocket money made sense in Washington in the good ol' days.quote>

I didn't have time to go into all of that, but that was part of what I wanted to say when I had more time - like now.

Castro takes over the country, makes everything Communist, and Cubans start to flee.  America is in a idealogical war with the Soviet Union at this point - communist lifestyle versus capitalist lifestyle.  No one needs to tell either side at this point what the stakes are.  At some point in all of this, Castro obviously allies himself with the Soviet Union, which freaks the US out because everyone knows that the Soviet Union doesn't like the US (comments coming from Khrushchev at some point in this time frame about crushing the US go to prove that).  The Soviet Union puts missiles capable of nuking the US mainland, and suddenly, we're at the brink of a nuclear holocaust.

I'm not going to say that the government had it's head screwed on about everything at the time (like giving weapons to Osama - sort of bit us in the ass later).  But at the time, the embargo made perfect sense, and militarily speaking, was a critical part of protecting the US mainland.

Originally posted by: Boggy1 Cuba's economy is in a very sorry state because of the US embargo. They can't trade with the US at all; a huge defecit when it comes to the economy. They never

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Voar Tok OK, and that's our fault how?  Any country has the right to trade, or not trade, with whoever they want.quote>

 

Some embargos are obvious. Like not selling weapons to a regime you don't like, such as Cuba or the Soviet Union. That are matters of state security. However others are just plain silly, like the general embargo on Cuba 45 years later. Why can't the individual merchant decide for himself wether he will trade with a country? It's not like the Cuban defense systems are any weaker becuase HP may not sell computers to them; they'll always be able to buy them from Spain or Poland. And it's the software that matters; which is why those outside the United States never ever should buy software that relies on encryption from the US.

The US had no problems when companies invested in South Africa and contributed to the suppression of the blacks. Why is it then so important not to allow American citizens to trade with Cubans. Remember; it's usually the subjects of a state that trades, rarely the state itself.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: krbe

The US had no problems when companies invested in South Africa and contributed to the suppression of the blacks.  quote>

Just for the record:  Many of us boycotted companies who did business in South Africa until apartheid was removed.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: NMUSpidey

EDIT:  Also, Patriots, one of the things about health care systems is that they are a single factor of many that go into longevity.  Cuba may have an impressive longevity, but a health care system is merely a single factor.  Others are as important, or more important.  It is impossible to look at a country's health care system and point to it and say, "See?  That's why they are living so long!" quote>

 

I'd say a lack of fast food, coupled with a lower-wealth diet of fresh fruits and vegetables has a lot to do with it (They also like very strong coffee, shown to help prevent liver and colon cancer. Now why would I mention that? LOL!).

Pollution is likely lower due to the fact that they aren't overrun with cars like the rest of the civilized world. Plus, they seem to be excellent swimmers! 

[ilikehotdogsalot 311]

Originally posted by: Boggy1 To those saying why people are fleeing Cuba...Cuba's economy is in a very sorry state right now. They are still being forced to drive 1950s cars, they are using 30 year old computers, there is barely enough food to go around, etcetera etcetera. So of course you would want to leave. But why has all this happened to Cuba? The US embargo. It's the US's fault.

I never said Cuba was sucessful, it just has been one of the most successful communists states in the world. As mentioned, its health and education system far outperforms the USA and most of the rest of the world.quote>

It's the US's fault because they don't have computers or cars? Are we the only country in the world who makes computers or cars? The US doesn't even make many cars anymore, let alone computers. Cuba has a few European branded cars running around Havana, the only reason people are still using cars from the 50's is because of lack of money to go out and buy a car, aswell as lack of them which makes cars very expensive. By the way, Cuba's buddy with most Latin American countries nearby, especially Chavez, so why would they need our help? I don't know much about Cuba's economic relation with China, but you'd be thinking they'd be good traders since they share the same communist view, eh? Most people swim to Florida in order to get a job and send money to their families so they can feed themselves, I don't think they're very concerned about buying that new Toyota, let alone begin to try and find one. It's not the U.S's fault Cuba chose the path they did. . .

I do think the U.S needs to grow some..er...and begin making relations with Cuba. It's only 90 miles away, but since we seem to have a boss who doesn't seem to like doing anything productive, maybe next year. Doubt it'll do anything though, since Cuban government hates the United States, but it wouldn't hurt to try.

Is that a Peugeot I see?

[crazyyaya 4]

The secret US government plan to remove Castro through a fifty process of old age has succeeded!

[joe2102001 19]

Just as soon as the diabolical plan to increase global warming, takes affect and the hurricanes level the island things will be change..........

But I agree its time to lift the ban.  It only hurts the civilians of the country who have no say.

And as for them being the most successful communist country, well thats kind of like winning the gold medal in the special olympics, sure you won, but your still retarded.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: ilikehotdogsalot

Originally posted by: Boggy1 To those saying why people are fleeing Cuba...Cuba's economy is in a very sorry state right now. They are still being forced to drive 1950s cars, they are using 30 year old computers, there is barely enough food to go around, etcetera etcetera. So of course you would want to leave. But why has all this happened to Cuba? The US embargo. It's the US's fault.

I never said Cuba was sucessful, it just has been one of the most successful communists states in the world. As mentioned, its health and education system far outperforms the USA and most of the rest of the world.quote>

It's the US's fault because they don't have computers or cars? Are we the only country in the world who makes computers or cars? The US doesn't even make many cars anymore, let alone computers. Cuba has a few European branded cars running around Havana, the only reason people are still using cars from the 50's is because of lack of money to go out and buy a car, aswell as lack of them which makes cars very expensive. By the way, Cuba's buddy with most Latin American countries nearby, especially Chavez, so why would they need our help? I don't know much about Cuba's economic relation with China, but you'd be thinking they'd be good traders since they share the same communist view, eh? Most people swim to Florida in order to get a job and send money to their families so they can feed themselves, I don't think they're very concerned about buying that new Toyota, let alone begin to try and find one. It's not the U.S's fault Cuba chose the path they did. . .

I do think the U.S needs to grow some..er...and begin making relations with Cuba. It's only 90 miles away, but since we seem to have a boss who doesn't seem to like doing anything productive, maybe next year. Doubt it'll do anything though, since Cuban government hates the United States, but it wouldn't hurt to try.quote>

It's not directly the US' fault that they miss much; but when it comes to eceonomy we began tearing down the walls in the mid-1700s, and have continued to this day--and as I've state before, the size and proximity of other economies is what matters. The division of labour makes the Cuban population, and American merchants, vulnerable to the American government's intereference (where's the free market?).

The embargo isn't against the Cuban leadership; it's against the Cuban population. The leadership will always find ways to get around such walls, but the subjects of the states, both Cuba and the US, cannot. And yes, it is partly the US' fault that Cuba went the way it did; you backed an idiot without any popular support while those who fighted against just had more stamina.

And you'll see the Cubans would be more than eager to normalise (economic) ties; the business depends on it, and if the new leadership are interested in keeping the state and make it prosper somehow, some dollars will be dealry appreciated.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: krbe  It's not like the Cuban defense systems are any weaker becuase HP may not sell computers to them; they'll always be able to buy them from Spain or Poland.quote>

And therein lies the problem. The US embargo is useless because it's unilateral. Had most of the developed world joined us in that endeavor, it would likely have been successful long ago. After all, they wouldn't have the option of saying "fine, we'll go buy stuff from this other country instead; you go shove it" if no other country will sell it to them.

The US had no problems when companies invested in South Africa and contributed to the suppression of the blacks. Why is it then so important not to allow American citizens to trade with Cubans. Remember; it's usually the subjects of a state that trades, rarely the state itself.quote>

I'm not 100% sure about this, but weren't there a lot of people who wanted to put economic sanctions on South Africa? And weren't they prohibited from partaking in the olympics for a bit there?

 You'll have to excuse my less than complete knowledge on the subject; it was a tad before my time and the schools in my town tended not to ever really mention any history past WWII save for the civil rights movement (and boy did they cover that topic to death). What I know is what I've picked up from various other sources along the way.

....actually, come to think of it, it does seem rather odd that despite every February getting devoted entirely to black history, South Africa never got covered except for the occasional slight mention. I guess it just wasn't really considered important since it wasn't our history (how typically American an attitude). Well, that and people tend to have a hard time looking at things they remember happening as "history". Hence why anything more recent than 40-50 years or so is not likely to get taught much.

Not really related: "embargo" spelled backwards is "o grab me"....

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Duke87

You'll have to excuse my less than complete knowledge on the subject; it was a tad before my time and the schools in my town tended not to ever really mention any history past WWII save for the civil rights movement (and boy did they cover that topic to death). What I know is what I've picked up from various other sources along the way.quote>

Well, that is some progress.  When I was in school, they tended not to mention any history past WWI.  It drove my WWII-era parents crazy.

We did talk about the civil rights movement but that was current events, not history. 

I think it was a bad idea to reduce the time spent on history when they increased the math and science during the post-Sputnick freak-out.  Couldn't we have gotten rid of Romeo and Juliet instead?

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Duke87

And therein lies the problem. The US embargo is useless because it's unilateral. Had most of the developed world joined us in that endeavor, it would likely have been successful long ago. After all, they wouldn't have the option of saying "fine, we'll go buy stuff from this other country instead; you go shove it" if no other country will sell it to them. quote>

But back in the day when the embargo would have meant anything they would have gotten some backing from the Soviets and Chinese anyway, so that would have been impossible. Kim Jong-Il himself has done very well while his country has fallen to pieces, so it would probably have failed even with support from the rest of the world.

The US had no problems when companies invested in South Africa and contributed to the suppression of the blacks. Why is it then so important not to allow American citizens to trade with Cubans. Remember; it's usually the subjects of a state that trades, rarely the state itself.quote>

I'm not 100% sure about this, but weren't there a lot of people who wanted to put economic sanctions on South Africa? And weren't they prohibited from partaking in the olympics for a bit there?quote>

Yes, many wanted, but at least in the US this was up to the discretion of the individual merchant (EDIT The US imposed some sanctions on SA in 1986, against Reagan's veto). Hell, I know people who have seen the police go and beat up the kaffers on a Durban beach like this:

 You'll have to excuse my less than complete knowledge on the subject; it was a tad before my time and the schools in my town tended not to ever really mention any history past WWII save for the civil rights movement (and boy did they cover that topic to death). What I know is what I've picked up from various other sources along the way.

....actually, come to think of it, it does seem rather odd that despite every February getting devoted entirely to black history, South Africa never got covered except for the occasional slight mention. I guess it just wasn't really considered important since it wasn't our history (how typically American an attitude). Well, that and people tend to have a hard time looking at things they remember happening as "history". Hence why anything more recent than 40-50 years or so is not likely to get taught much.

Not really related: "embargo" spelled backwards is "o grab me"....quote>

 

I only remembered it because some South Africans are suing American corporations for their actions during the apartheid regime.

If you want to learn more black history relative to SA, you can comfort yourself with the fact that blacks were allowed to sell their internal passport (necessary to work and be in white neighbourhoods) for an unlimited supply of beer in their township. And that the SAA (national airline of SA) LHR-Johannesburg trip lasted several hours longer than other airlines, because the rest of Africa denied it access to their airspace.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: Duke87

You'll have to excuse my less than complete knowledge on the subject; it was a tad before my time and the schools in my town tended not to ever really mention any history past WWII save for the civil rights movement (and boy did they cover that topic to death). What I know is what I've picked up from various other sources along the way.quote>

Well, that is some progress.  When I was in school, they tended not to mention any history past WWI.  It drove my WWII-era parents crazy.

We did talk about the civil rights movement but that was current events, not history. 

I think it was a bad idea to reduce the time spent on history when they increased the math and science during the post-Sputnik freak-out.  Couldn't we have gotten rid of Romeo and Juliet instead?quote>

 

In the CPS (Chicago public schools) we spent more time on MLK than the Revolution and Civil War combined. World Wars 1 and 2 went entirely unmentioned. 

But give up Shakespeare? Never! My only gripe about literature and english classes was that they concentrated on politics far too much for a class that had nothing to do with politics. PC was de riguer, at the behest of leftist administrators. I had to discover Carl Sandburg and Rudyard Kipling on my own.  Your tax dollars at work!

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

But give up Shakespeare? Never!  quote>

History classes might help us understand this planet we live on.

Shakespeare is going to do what?   Why do we hand our teenagers a story about teenagers in love who wind up killing themselves?   How is this helping anything?

I'm not saying eliminate all literature classes.  Having some literature classes would be good.  I'm just saying we are sacrificing more important classes for the sake of keeping the volume of literature that is in there.

[confused04 14]

I'm just getting kinda fed up with the whole "Cuba's healthcare system is teh roxxor and pwns teh wurld!"

A) Cuba was reported to have a much lower infant mortality rate.

Fact: Cuba was also reported to have a much much much higher abortion rate for "high risk", determined by the state of course, pregnancies. I.e. lets abort them and claim that they don't die at birth. Many of these abortions are not voluntary.

B) Cuba's healthcare is cheap, reliable, accessible and successful. Its focus on preventative medicine and removal of corporate greed makes it superior.

Fact: Cuba's healthcare system is WORSE in terms of corporate greed than the US. Their ENTIRE health care system is built on bringing tourists in to prop the economy up. There are two types of hospitals, those for the tourists and those for general public and they are NOT the same, nor anywhere near the same. Those accessible by the general public often lack ANY records (hmm... wonder why), lack supplies, are more importantly, are not sanitary. Cuba has a reason to lie if its health care system is trying to pander to the tourists. They claim to be capable of assisting in ailments that they cannot.

Cuba's health care system is not a bastion of communist pride. Just like the cake in Portal, its a lie.

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: NMUSpideyBZZZZZZZZZZZZZT WRONG.  Cuba's economy is in a sorry state because they chose to employ communism, a form of economic central planning that has the distinction of being a gigantic failure every single place it has been tried.  There are no exceptions. quote>

Communism is control by the people, not by the state. What all 'Communist' states have had is simply a 'State Controlled' Socialist system where the Government contols all forms of production and distributes wealth evenly. And other than the USSR and those under its influence, what other Socialist states have been a 'gigantic failure'? Not all states have the same system... China has a mixed system, as does Vietnam, both have some the fastest growing economies on earth. The USSR was doing pretty well for itself up untill the arrival of Gorbachev. The whole reason the USSR collapsed was because Gorbachev tried to make the country a little more Democratic by giving the people Freedom of Speech, freedom of press and granting independance to the sattelite states... he may have even worked up to implementing a form of Multiparty system. But, all this change lead to anger amoungst the hardliners and his eventual coup and resignation. If Cuba was to adopt a system similar to that of China or Vietnam, things would soon change rapidly.

Originally posted by: confused04Cuba's health care system is not a bastion of communist pride. Just like the cake in Portal, its a lie.quote>

The US Health care system isn't exactly the worlds benchmark either...

[confused04 14]

I'm definitely not saying the U.S.'s health care system is something we should be proud of, but its still better than Cuba's. Most of the US's health care problems are not based upon the system itself, but on life style choices.

[justintime 8]

Last time i checked, Cargo Ships aren't allowed to enter U.S. ports for about, say half a year...

Originally posted by: Wikipedia any non-U.S. company that "knowingly traffics in property in Cuba confiscated without compensation from a U.S. person" can be subjected to litigation and that company's leadership can be barred from entry into the United States. Sanctions may also be applied to non-U.S. companies trading with Cuba. This restriction also applies to maritime shipping, as ships docking at Cuban ports are not allowed to dock at U.S. ports for six months.quote>

[WaiSech 0]

Power goes from one dying leader to another. Just like it was back in the good old Soviet Union...

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: confused04 I'm definitely not saying the U.S.'s health care system is something we should be proud of, but its still better than Cuba's. Most of the US's health care problems are not based upon the system itself, but on life style choices.quote>

Well of course it is, considering Cuba is an under developed country and America is history's wealthiest superpower. Comparing Cuba's Health Care system to America's is like comparing tap water to vintage champagne... they both taste like crap but you know which one you'd rather have if you could afford it

[Geronimo 4]

Originally posted by: confused04 I'm definitely not saying the U.S.'s health care system is something we should be proud of, but its still better than Cuba's. Most of the US's health care problems are not based upon the system itself, but on life style choices.quote>

 

There seems everything is better in US than in Cuba no matter how hard it sucks? So, what is it that make the US health system so fantastic compared to the Cuban?

And about your last comment, what you really say is: "Hey our health system is in perfect conditions, if it had not been for all those sick folks." 

So if the system work, there must be something wrong with the population then?

Well, thats what healt care is all about, keep people healthy, and if its like you mentioned, the system has probably failed.

Defending a total failure of healt care services by the high level of cardiovasculare diseases (thats what you ment with "life style choises", right?) is kinda weird if you ask me. But you probably not....

Btw, being poor and cant afford insurance, is that a life style choise too?

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: GeronimoBtw, being poor and cant afford insurance, is that a life style choise too?

quote>

I'd say that was more down to the system since its the imposed system of fully privatized Health care that denies them the right to treatment in the first place.  But, in a way, it is also up to the individual to go out there and find a job in order to afford Health care, so it could be down to life style choice. But even then, your not 100% guarenteed to get treatment even when you do have health insurance, so thats is also down to the system. Its a morbid system really... you put your lives in the hands of corporations and they can basically choose if you live or die with no burden on their shoulders.

[panthersimcity4 162]

I have to admit, they had a pretty good healthcare system for such a poor 3rd world country.

However, Fidel Castro being an ass and all kinda takes away from the "achievements" of Cuba as a 3rd world country.

[Gabo72 0]

Hugo Ch

[Smarty218 2]

Like they said on NPR, nothing is really going to change until Castro dies....

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: Geronimo

Originally posted by: confused04 I'm definitely not saying the U.S.'s health care system is something we should be proud of, but its still better than Cuba's. Most of the US's health care problems are not based upon the system itself, but on life style choices.quote>

 

There seems everything is better in US than in Cuba no matter how hard it sucks? So, what is it that make the US health system so fantastic compared to the Cuban?

And about your last comment, what you really say is: "Hey our health system is in perfect conditions, if it had not been for all those sick folks." 

So if the system work, there must be something wrong with the population then?

Well, thats what healt care is all about, keep people healthy, and if its like you mentioned, the system has probably failed.

Defending a total failure of healt care services by the high level of cardiovasculare diseases (thats what you ment with "life style choises", right?) is kinda weird if you ask me. But you probably not....

Btw, being poor and cant afford insurance, is that a life style choise too?

quote>

I sort of doubt that's what he meant.  The vast majority of America's health problems as we age are degenerative diseases - meaning they are diseases we get because we got older.  The thing is, taking the high rate of cardiovascular disease in America and trying to use it to disprove the usefulness of the system is futile because regardless of what the system does, it can't overcome the fact that the people that it treats won't observe even some of the simplest of requirements for staying health.  The fault isn't the system.  It's ours for eating and living like crap.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Geronimo[...]

Well, thats what healt care is all about, keep people healthy, and if its like you mentioned, the system has probably failed.

Defending a total failure of healt care services by the high level of cardiovasculare diseases (thats what you ment with "life style choises", right?) is kinda weird if you ask me. But you probably not....

quote>

 

There aren't a "total failure of health services" in the US; the system is pretty good. The problem is the access to the systems, but as a foreigner, the US is one of the few countries you can fell ill in and be sure to recieve the health care you need (provided you actually bought the travel insurance before you left).

[TheQuiltedLlama 34]

Originally posted by: confused04 I'm just getting kinda fed up with the whole "Cuba's healthcare system is teh roxxor and pwns teh wurld!"

A) Cuba was reported to have a much lower infant mortality rate.

Fact: Cuba was also reported to have a much much much higher abortion rate for "high risk", determined by the state of course, pregnancies. I.e. lets abort them and claim that they don't die at birth. Many of these abortions are not voluntary.

B) Cuba's healthcare is cheap, reliable, accessible and successful. Its focus on preventative medicine and removal of corporate greed makes it superior.

Fact: Cuba's healthcare system is WORSE in terms of corporate greed than the US. Their ENTIRE health care system is built on bringing tourists in to prop the economy up. There are two types of hospitals, those for the tourists and those for general public and they are NOT the same, nor anywhere near the same. Those accessible by the general public often lack ANY records (hmm... wonder why), lack supplies, are more importantly, are not sanitary. Cuba has a reason to lie if its health care system is trying to pander to the tourists. They claim to be capable of assisting in ailments that they cannot.

Cuba's health care system is not a bastion of communist pride. Just like the cake in Portal, its a lie.quote>

I'm not saying this isn't true, but i'd like to see your source for this.

Here is an Article on the Cuban health care system, from the BBC, which is probably one of the most trustworthy sources one can find. Its a little old, but i think it gives a pretty good idea of how the system works.