The Existence of God

[schm0 27]

This thread was created to make space for the people in the Creationism vs. Evolution thread that would like to debate the existence of God.

1) Normal off-topic thread rules apply.

2) Keep it clean. No flaming, no insults.

3) If possible, please cite a source for your arguments where applicable. Frame your arguments logically. Explain yourself in detail. Write towards your conclusions with supporting sentences. A well-constructed argument is usually the one that convinces.

4) Have fun.

5) RESPECT ONE ANOTHER'S BELIEFS.

NOW WITH A NEW POLL^©!!!

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

This probably belongs in the House of Worship thread.  What do the section mods think?

[Mikeaut1 261]

I agree. There is already a thread for this in the Simtropolis House of Worship, which is in the offtopic section.

THREAD MOVED TO OFF TOPIC 

[Zwabberaar 18]

I think this is a completely different type of discussion. The house of worship tackles the problem of different believe systems. This topic can deepen the idea's about the existence of non-existence of a "super being".

[Droftrah 2]

I personally don't believe in the existence of God.

I really don't like the idea of "blind faith" and the thought of not testing God which, to me, seems like the biggest get-out clause.

"If there really was a God, why doesn't he show himself?"

"Ah, but you cannot test God, you must have faith"

Hmmm....

One thing that annoys me is that God takes all the credit for good things that happen, yet no part in any bad.

And I have a good example...

About four years ago my son and I were involved in a very serious Car crash; I broke a number of bones and had a few other injuries whereas my son suffered a near-fatal head injury. The doctors informed my family that my son would die (I was comatose at the time), so they made the necessary plans.

But my son got better, stunning doctors as he made a remarkable recovery and today he is almost physically 100% (he has some mental problems).

When I tell people now about this they always say it was a "Miracle" and God had a hand in his recovery. The same people are often left a little flustered as I refuse to accept this notion and vehemently point out that had my son died they would not blame God for that as he has "Given man free will, and it would be wrong for him to interfere".

Smite me, oh mighty smiter.

[The boy formerly known as Evil Muzz 27]

If I saw evidence to prove the existence of God, I would make my decision then. Until then, I believe there is no God as there is no way to prove that He/She exists.

[Mikeaut1 261]

Originally posted by: The boy formerly known as Evil Muzz If I saw evidence to prove the existence of God, I would make my decision then. Until then, I believe there is no God as there is no way to prove that He/She exists.quote>

Well there lies the problem in many people who refuse to accept there is a God. The human race now is very scientific and logical; we search for reasons and proof before confirming something. That's not how believing in God operates. Believers have the faith in a higher being, and they live according to that faith. So you will never get proof handed to you until God comes back for the Second Coming (which is in the Bible).

The biggest proof you'll get are the miracles that are appearing in the world today. One of the reasons why I believe in God and have faith in his prescense is because what I experience at my church. Prayers have been answered, and I know they are not just mere coincidences. Demons have been casted out of people, people have been slain in the spirit, and I've witnessed it. So that also adds to my faith in God.

[Scarlet 0]

Philosophically there are some interesting arguments for the existence of god. I personally don't believe any of them, the idea of a god just contains too many paradoxes for me to get my head around (though i could say the same thing about quantum physics!).

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

By definition God is unknowable.  we can only conjecture about what God is or isn't.  The creator is so far beyond us by the fact of creation that we really have no grounds for belief nor disbelief.

The question is ineffable.

[Nerd_Guy 4]

Well, I know there are a lot of atheists out there, and I see your side of the argument, but when you keep arguing with your scientific theories and such, the all eventually disprove themselves. Science is as contradictory as religion. And one thing I think is proof of God is that part of the Cell Theory is that "All Cells Come From Existing Cells". So where did the first cell come from? God. What caused yor so called "Big Bang" to happen? Doesn't something like that require energy to start? If there was nothing before that, where did the the energy come from? Think about it...

[2nerdy4u 1]

Science is not contradictory. It's more like a large debate with several theories (in the scientific sense of the word, not the common one) backed by loads of evidence. Science is very open-minded and instead of everything being fact and unchangeable, things can change. New study, new evidence, new theory. The problem with religion (at least, this is what I think) is that people use it as some sort of excuse. "Why is the Earth round?" "Mmmm... ah yes... t'was God." Why not take that further? Why not find out? Why stop so early and not make progress? Why impede human progress?

[The boy formerly known as Evil Muzz 27]

Originally posted by: Mikeaut1

Originally posted by: The boy formerly known as Evil Muzz If I saw evidence to prove the existence of God, I would make my decision then. Until then, I believe there is no God as there is no way to prove that He/She exists.quote>

Well there lies the problem in many people who refuse to accept there is a God. The human race now is very scientific and logical; we search for reasons and proof before confirming something. That's not how believing in God operates. Believers have the faith in a higher being, and they live according to that faith. So you will never get proof handed to you until God comes back for the Second Coming (which is in the Bible).

The biggest proof you'll get are the miracles that are appearing in the world today. One of the reasons why I believe in God and have faith in his prescense is because what I experience at my church. Prayers have been answered, and I know they are not just mere coincidences. Demons have been casted out of people, people have been slain in the spirit, and I've witnessed it. So that also adds to my faith in God.quote>

 

That may be, but you can't blame people for not having faith in a being who looks out for everyone, but at the same time allows attrocities like genocide, terrorist attacks, famines, hurricanes and everything else that causes mass loss of life to happen in the world.

[confused04 14]

A good scientists knows that you cannot deal with the metaphysical. It cannot be proven or disproven, but that being said, it does not mean religion and science are mutually exclusive.  It just means that science has no right to dive into things it has no hope in addressing.

As someone said, science is not a collection of contradictions, its a coalescence of theories to explain the natural world. Yes, not all of science is perfect and its not pretended to be. Are there questions to be answered like "where did the first cell come from?" Of course, otherwise science as a discipline would cease to exist. There are attempts to answer the aforementioned question as is the big bang. We can't offer you a solid answer, but at least science is attempting to do it with logic.

Now it doesn't mean science and religion are mutually exclusive, unless you are a literal interpreter of the Bible. The easy thing to say is "God created the laws of nature, therefore science is religion". Science can be viewed as a an attempt to explain God's workings.

[DOXXP29 5]

Demons have been casted out of people, people have been slain in the spirit, and I've witnessed it. So that also adds to my faith in God.quote>

Enlighten me, please, Mikeault. The phrase "slain in the spirit". What exactly does that mean and how have you seen or experienced it?

Regarding the question of the topic, I don't believe in religion. I do believe there are powers that are greater than I. However, I have not yet seen anything in any religious scripture that quite defines this in a way that resonates with me.

[Sam 163]

Originally posted by: Mikeaut1 ..

Well there lies the problem in many people who refuse to accept there is a God...quote>

Why is it a problem if someone chooses not to believe in a god (note: not "refuses to accept")?

Edit: The google ads for this topic are rather revealing (no not like that). For example:

Atheism Against the Law (interesting, if misinformed)

Proofs of God's Existance (don't think I'll bother with that one, I'm sure we'll get plenty right here, but just in case anyone runs out of ideas)

Meaning of Life Explained (we have a thread for that too, so I'll pass)

A few ads for SimCity4 on ebay (already got mine thanks)

[ShortStraw 1]

Better minds than mine have dwelt on this to be sure...

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear... Do not be frightened from this inquiry from any fear of its consequences. If it ends in the belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise..."- Thomas Jefferson.

"To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behavior on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light, but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress."- Albert Einstein

[Wackee 8]

Originally posted by: Nerd_Guy

And one thing I think is proof of God is that part of the Cell Theory is that "All Cells Come From Existing Cells". So where did the first cell come from? God.quote>

Please read Exception #2 of the wiki article: "The first cell did not originate from a preexisting cell".

Then please point out, why processes of chemical evolution can not create a first protocell.

After this, please show us, why it needs supernatural forces, to create a first cell.

And finally, please show, why these supernatural forces must have been speciffically your god, and not Zeus, Odin or Ra.

Originally posted by: Nerd_Guy

What caused yor so called "Big Bang" to happen? Doesn't something like that require energy to start? If there was nothing before that, where did the the energy come from?

quote>

Again, please show where science said, that there was nothing "before" Big Bang.

Then show, why it needs supernatural forces for the first cause and why these forces are caused by your god.

Originally posted by: Nerd_Guy

Think about it...quote>

There are so many problems with the abrahamic god. I'll list only a few of them here:

• Where came God from? Why can he be eternal, while matter/energy cannot?
• What drives a God, who allready knows everything and all the future, to change his mind and create an universe?

• Why did he create Satan and evil in the first place?
• How can he be all-knowing, when he (his creations) gets fooled by satan-snakes?
• Why does he punish Adam&Eve, when he didn't give them knowledge about good and evil?
• Why on earth do I have to pay for their sins? This isn't omnibenevolent!
• When he is ominpotent and omibenevolent, why doesn't he stop evil? Instead he doesn't care, even if it's done in his own name...
• Why is eternal pain a just punishment for finite sins?
• What fun is heaven, when you know that other people are geting their "just" punishment?

• What fun is heaven full of fundies like Ann Coulter and Jerry Falwell, while your dear friends are suffering in hell?
• Why is the Bible so imperfect and vague, if it is the word of God?
• Why is it, that the Bible reads more like a shamanistic crowd-control instruction of bronze age tribe leaders?
• Why did God never answer my prayers?

I have tons of them. And no, not one of them "proves" that God can not exist.

But for me they make it quite unreasonable to think, that the Bible is more than a collection of bronze age myths. As all we "know" about God today is from the Bible, my stance on this case of supernaturality is quite obvious.

Greetings...

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[confused04 14]

Just to add...

For those saying that the existence of God is proven through daily miracles, can you explain the daily tragedies that plague the world? In terms of evidence, you cannot just look at the point that supports your view and ignore the negating factors. Miracles are just the good side of a flipped coin, tragedies being the other. Being optimistic doesn't mean God exists. 

[hamsterTK 93]

I guess if you do believe in a god, that's a matter of faith that doesn't necessarily need to be proven by evidence.

But that's my perspective as an atheist/agnostic. A deeply religious person may be more pressed to find the "truth".

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

There has been a lot of talk about evil things happening and how can God condone this.  Well, folks, evil is the doing of man's inhumanity to man.  It is related to the idea of free will.  Man is not necessarily good all the time, and is quite often the opposite.

The existence of good and evil is another whole topic, eh?

Nature has been called cruel, but nature, and God for that matter, is just neutral.

[Sam 163]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa ...

Mikeaut1 said: Why is it a problem if someone chooses not to believe in a god (note: not "refuses to accept")?quote>

Thanks for trying to clarify, but a refusal of one thing, is a choice to accept the alternate. Can you rephrase? I am not clear on what you are saying.

Barbarossa

quote>

Did I mess up my quotes again? I get the bbs codes wrong every time. That was one of my quotes actually in response to Mikeaut1 It should be:

Originally posted by: Mikeaut1 ..

Well there lies the problem in many people who refuse to accept there is a God...quote>

Originally posted by: Sam

Why is it a problem if someone chooses not to believe in a god (note: not "refuses to accept")?quote>

[Deever 23]

From past experiences in the House of Worship thread, I'd have to say there's no way of proving God's existence (sadly). People would ask you where God came from and if you have any answer to that, we'd like to hear it. If I could, I'd ask God himself that very question.

Oh well. That's life in this "to see is to believe" world we have.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Wackee 8]

I think the free-will-concept its pretty important to theistic arguments. It's the only way of explaining evil in a way that is sufficient for most people. But there are still problems with it:

- How can there be free will, if God already knows all decisions, you will ever make?

- How do you define "evil"? The common sense seems to change throughout time periods and cultures.

- Is there really a free will in situations, where someone commits evil? Neuroscience tends to the other direction.

[confused04 14]

Why is it that "evil" is always a human creation but "good" is always the will of God. That is picking and choosing again. How about both evil and good being a neutral thing or both caused by humans. You can't use one thing to support your point and discount its counterpoint for no real apparent reason.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[GingerBlokey 30]

Id probably get flamed if I spouted my own beliefs on the subject. Just ask Boggy I had a real rant with him on the subject.

Religion = Evil

That's all Im saying.

[Mikeaut1 261]

Woah didn't realize I was being quoted here by people.

Well from what I experienced, demon possessed people were at my alter once, and the demonic presence was casted out of the body. In the Bible, you can read up on demon posessed people. Anyway, the person I saw was foaming at the mouth, once my pastor touched him he was immediately cleansed and he fell to his knees, crying.

Someone asked what "slain in the spirit" means. This article sums it up. It's a very hard concept to both grasp and explain. I've personally never been, but some of my friends have, some members of my church that I talk to, and my mom, especially. I asked my mom about what she experienced when slain in the spirit. She said before she fell, she experienced a heaviness or presence within her body. She couldn't stay up. She also said after she fell, she just experienced God's presence within her, and felt like she was "engulfed in God". Again, its a very hard concept to grasp and understand, and a lot of people who don't believe in God and attend a service where this is happening are usually scared away.

There is also the gifts of the Holy Spirit, preferably tounges and healing, which is used in almost every church around here. The Gift of Tounges is when you speak in a language that no one else can understand, but it is prayer, and someone then could interpret the language and prophesies to it. Its something I experience every Sunday, it's quite cool how God uses our prayers and then people prophesy and God speaks through people.

I'm not expecting anyone to believe in a God. It is entirely their choice. I'm just sharing with you my reasons for believing in a God, and why faith is the primary factor that really confirms your belief in a higher being. As I've been quoted above by a few posts, I have been asked "why is it a problem to not believe in God?" Well I answer in my beliefs. I believe that you can only enter the kingdom of God (heaven) if you have Jesus Christ in your heart and you confirm that he is your Savior. If no one believes in God, you cannot enter heaven. That's what I believe. In no way am I forcing these beliefs upon you, even though the Bible does tell Christians to share the gospel with others.

Here is one question for those who do not believe though, hoping I have clarified everything you have asked.

Wouldn't you take your chances and believe in Jesus so that you may enter the Kingdom of God anyway? If you're entirely unsure if there is a God, I think it is better to choose that there is one and that if you believe in Jesus Christ and confess your sins, you will be in paradise forever.

[2nerdy4u 1]

Problem: What if it isn't Jesus? There are so many different religions out there. Each one claims to offer protection, but of course you can't be part of them all.

Also, why live a life of lies? I'm not saying that God is one big lie (although I sometimes do feel that way). I'm asking why we deceive ourselves. Here we have this ability to find out things for ourselves in a way that makes sense, in a way that is logical; in a way that is universal. Why stop and be satisfied with the idea that we all puppets of some higher being? Why should we give up, when we are capable of more? We are capable of advanced thought, so why not make use of it? The ancients used religion only because their knowledge of the world was limited. But here we are in the 21st century with ever-expanding knowledge. Why should we go back and satisfy ourselves with the obsolete thoughts of the ancients? Here we are, on the doorstep of progress. The human race is at a critical point where traditional thought is being replaced by more modern and real ideas. Let's go forwards instead of backwards.