Stop the Clash of Civilizations

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: ilikehotdogsalot

Originally posted by: Micah

Most Americans want to help out the world. We gave billions to Indonesia not because he had to, but because we wanted to bless them after the tsunami and we felt great pity for those innocent people, even if they were Muslim! The citizens alone gave more than most foreign governments combined. After the earthquake in Pakistan, we sent troops and aid to the thousands that lost their homes not because we had to, but because we want to win hearts and minds. America doesn't want to become the world's enemy. America - at least the citizens- simply wants to help out. Vietnam didn't have oil or any resources that we needed. We simply wanted Vietnam to enjoy the same freedoms that we as Americans enjoy. It's not that the US does what is wrong... it's that nobody will stand up against what's wrong and it falls on our hands whenever something goes wrong. If the Iraqis stood up united against the foreign forces that may or may not have been there in the beginning *that's not my point*, then we wouldn't be in as much of a mess as we are now.

Vietnam may have not been lost if the people of Vietnam stood up stronger against the forces of the oppressive communists that murdered millions throughout that region.

quote>

THANK YOU! finally, someone has said EXACTLY what i've been wanting to say for a very long time!quote>

 

Amen to that!

[Wyqtor 14]

Originally posted by: Frankie_Grove This little "clash" thing is only natural, it happens in animals too. They don't always get along and agree with every little thing. Since it is only "natural" I just think we should just deal with it rather than debate over every little thing.quote>

You deal with it, I don't want to be killed in the name of Islam.

[panthersimcity4 162]

I'm getting tired of people saying "Let's fight the enemy!"

"No one is to be called an enemy, all are your benefactors, and no one does you harm. You have no enemy except yourselves. " -St. Francis

I don't see any real difference between Muslims and Christians:

[gabry85 2]

Agreed. You brought the same message of the video.

Let's not forget about crusades in the Middle Ages.

[panthersimcity4 162]

And also, here's a list of innocent Muslims who died in the WTC terrorist attack:

http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm

Imagine being a Muslim widow of a person who died in the WTC, and people were telling you it was all your fault.

9/11 has shown us that we are all human beings and Americans, no matter what our religion, race,sexual orientation, or political persuation. There were many different groups of people who died in the WTC; Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews, Liberals, Conservatives, Gays, and etc. Who's to say that only a certain group of people deserves less mourning than the other?

[Wyqtor 14]

Originally posted by: panthersimcity4 I'm getting tired of people saying "Let's fight the enemy!"

quote>

What would you say if you had a brother in Iraq and his head was severed live on TV by a man shouting "Allahu Ackbar!"? Would your opinion hold then?

"No one is to be called an enemy, all are your benefactors, and no one does you harm. You have no enemy except yourselves. " -St. Francis

quote>

If you really believe letting yourself and your family killed without having put up a fight is the right thing for you, then I have no respect at all for you.

I don't see any real difference between Muslims and Christians:

quote>

I also don't see any difference at all (/sarcasm):

COMPARE TO:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/gallery.htm

(please follow the links; I did not post them here because these photos are VERY disturbing!)

Here is a video on YouTube which reflects my views:

[Wyqtor 14]

9/11 has shown us that we are all human beings and Americans, no matter what our religion, race,sexual orientation, or political persuation. There were many different groups of people who died in the WTC; Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews, Liberals, Conservatives, Gays, and etc. Who's to say that only a certain group of people deserves less mourning than the other?quote>

The terrorists are human beings too, they were only made to behave in this way because they  interpreted the verses of the holy Qur'an literally and encouraged to keep doing so by their religious leaders. That doesn't mean we should respect them, tolerate them and let them run loose in society.

Also I think the Muslims who didn't choose to die on 9/11 were those who thought that Jihad means "internal struggle", but unfortunately after seeing all these horrors on TV it becomes increasingly hard to trust non-violent Muslims, because 99% of all terrorists come from THIS religion. The moderate Muslims will have to manifest against violence and voice strong disapproval of terrorism in order to regain our trust and I say it is only fair. Though we must refrain from attacking them in any other way than through logical and constructive arguments, otherwise we would be no better than the terrorists and bullies.

[coolotter88 2]

wyqtor, may I introduce you to the Edit button?

[panthersimcity4 162]

Originally posted by: Wyqtor

9/11 has shown us that we are all human beings and Americans, no matter what our religion, race,sexual orientation, or political persuation. There were many different groups of people who died in the WTC; Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews, Liberals, Conservatives, Gays, and etc. Who's to say that only a certain group of people deserves less mourning than the other?quote>

The terrorists are human beings too, they were only made to behave in this way because they  interpreted the verses of the holy Qur'an literally and encouraged to keep doing so by their religious leaders. That doesn't mean we should respect them, tolerate them and let them run loose in society.

Also I think the Muslims who didn't choose to die on 9/11 were those who thought that Jihad means "internal struggle", but unfortunately after seeing all these horrors on TV it becomes increasingly hard to trust non-violent Muslims, because 99% of all terrorists come from THIS religion. The moderate Muslims will have to manifest against violence and voice strong disapproval of terrorism in order to regain our trust and I say it is only fair. Though we must refrain from attacking them in any other way than through logical and constructive arguments, otherwise we would be no better than the terrorists and bullies.quote>

How about Timothy McVeigh? He wasn't a muslim. Neither were the Basques in Spain, or the Irish Republican Army.

[panthersimcity4 162]

Originally posted by: Wyqtor

Originally posted by: panthersimcity4 I'm getting tired of people saying "Let's fight the enemy!"

quote>

What would you say if you had a brother in Iraq and his head was severed live on TV by a man shouting "Allahu Ackbar!"? Would your opinion hold then?

"No one is to be called an enemy, all are your benefactors, and no one does you harm. You have no enemy except yourselves. " -St. Francis

quote>

If you really believe letting yourself and your family killed without having put up a fight is the right thing for you, then I have no respect at all for you.

I don't see any real difference between Muslims and Christians:

quote>

I also don't see any difference at all (/sarcasm):

COMPARE TO:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/gallery.htm

(please follow the links; I did not post them here because these photos are VERY disturbing!)

Here is a video on YouTube which reflects my views:

quote>

 Christ calls on people to love our enemies... even if that means caring for someone who just decapitated your brother. Sorry, but that's what the Bible says.

Also, don't lose respect for me... Lose respect for St. Francis, the one who said that. And maybe if we learned to respect other people's cultures, they wouldn't come after us with bombs and machine guns.

You know, people are more than just appearances and their beliefs. They have feelings and emotions, and different personalities. I'm sorry, but if we resort to prejudice and labeling, then how do we expect anything to get better?

[coolotter88 2]

no, if they weren't just sitting around on their butts planning on destroying the western world with bombs, they wouldn't BE so poor.

poor people are the terrorists because no one listens to poor people.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

Whether you guys refuse to accept it or not, the (extremist, not the entire) muslim movement is our enemy, and I am tired of everyone trying to candycoat it with this tolerant, peace-loving attitude. We are at war (although I don't agree with the pretenses involving the initiation of such war), and wars always have enemies. Allies don't just decide to fight each other, you have to have a damned good reason to go to war, and that usually (it's just been a customary thing for the past, oh, several thousand years) involves having an enemy of some sort.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: Psycho_Teddy I am tired of everyone trying to candycoat it with this tolerant, peace-loving attitude. quote>

Tolerance tends to lead to better things, it annoys people into submission when they have no reason to retaliate. Not saying 9/11 should have gone unpunished, but the Coalition should have `cut the head off the snake` as you will and tried to find Osama instead of faffing around with Saddam Hussain.

That said, unfortunately for the world, capturing Osama would be about about as effective as shooting yourself in the face (just as hanging Saddam brought about 'A more peaceful world')... he may be the instigator and ringleader, but he`s not one coordinating the suicide attacks on a daily basis... those actions are usually soley down to a single Individual or small group of fanatics, the invasion of Iraq just irritated that fact and now we all, the tax payers and troops, have to pay the price of our misguided actions.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[ShortStraw 1]

I think systematically "removing" Osama Bin Laden, Zawahiri and other key Al Queada members and perhaps Taliban leaders through assassination or bounties would have been a more efficient approach than declaring open warfare on two entire nations.

And I'm one of those dirty "peace loving tolerant" types.

Bombings followed by military occupation does little to win "hearts and minds" to your cause.

[BurroDiablo 222]

I would prefer the capture rather than the Killing of terrorist ringleaders... extremists tend to become more zealous when theres and martyr to avenge. The US has been within killing range of Osama before (or so I heard), but they never took the shot... mainly for the reasons above.

I agree that Osama is definitely not as much of a mastermind than Zawahiri is; Zawahiri has most probably told Osama 'You get to do all the speeches, you get to do all the propaganda, you get to be the face of Al-Queda', so the World thinks Osama is the brains of the operation, and the Media personifies that, making Osma more or less a scapegoat for Zawahiri's actions.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

Originally posted by: El Burro

Originally posted by: Psycho_Teddy I am tired of everyone trying to candycoat it with this tolerant, peace-loving attitude. quote>

Tolerance tends to lead to better things, it annoys people into submission when they have no reason to retaliate. Not saying 9/11 should have gone unpunished, but the Coalition should have `cut the head off the snake` as you will and tried to find Osama instead of faffing around with Saddam Hussain.

That said, unfortunately for the world, capturing Osama would be about about as effective as shooting yourself in the face (just as hanging Saddam brought about 'A more peaceful world')... he may be the instigator and ringleader, but he`s not one coordinating the suicide attacks on a daily basis... those actions are usually soley down to a single Individual or small group of fanatics, the invasion of Iraq just irritated that fact and now we all, the tax payers and troops, have to pay the price of our misguided actions.quote>

In other words:  "I'm not against the radical Muslim movement, but I'm against the radical Muslim movement."

And, when in my post did I say that we should capture/kill ONLY Osama?

The problem of radical Islam is that it is so widespread throughout the Middle -East that it is hard to fight.  A.) Because of the diplomacy involved in trying to fight it (you can't just invade a country that teaches kids from birth, radical Islam principles, which makes more radical muslims), and B.) There's just a vast amount of radical Islam cells in the Middle East.  And, personally, I find this goal a bit difficult to achieve, if not impossible, for any world power.  Our allies are waning in quantity, and national support has gone through the floor, and rightly so, in my opinion.  As we are no longer (nor ever were, now that I think about it) in the most concentrated area of the Radical Islam movement.  This movement has migrated to Iran. However, the threat of nuclear warfare from Iran defeats the purpose in invading it (you, know, averting terrorism), so I also oppose invasion of this area as well.  They have the perfect strategy, I say, and it's quite scary.

And, to be perfectly honest, I don't believe that the United States' government really cares about averting terrorist attacks.  The political corruption and war-profiteering in Iraq has lead the government to draw out this process for a long as possible.  The government doesn't want this war to end, because that would mean the end of profits for their corporate buddies, and the threat of waning campaign contributions.  Another attack would simply justify a military surge on an unprecedented scale (and therefore, an accompanying profit surge).  This "war" is all smoke and mirrors, and nothing is actually getting accomplished, at least not without multiple levels of redundancy (KBR employees being paid three times as much to do the same job that the military could do, like setting up camps and radios, water supplies, trucking, etc.), and that, ladies and gentlemen, is where your billions of dollars are going, not to the troops.   There was a documentary written by notable journalist, Robert Greenwald (which aired on Starz for several months, and is still on the On Demand list), called Iraq for Sale.  Here are some links to a few clips of this show, the whole thing can be found on Youtube, but its in parts:

Part I: http://youtube.com/watch?v=szrrbLQpE9s

Part II: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ffD5lkXdBgY

Part III: http://youtube.com/watch?v=nCi_hTV12W8&mode=related&search=

Part IV: http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YzTXpkJyCQ

Part V: http://youtube.com/watch?v=5DtYHSd1DW0

Part VI: http://youtube.com/watch?v=BhQgZaFJzIQ

[vistla 3]

Religion and politics are a bad mixture. Church and state are as compatable as acid and water. You see? Peanutbutter and jelly, on the other hand, is a match made in Heaven. There's also a good argument for beer and cigarettes, by the way. Have a nice day.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Most acids are miscible in all proportions in water, so it is a bad analogy.  Hydrazine and Nitric Acid would be more like it.

There will always be religions.  It is built into people to try and find a first cause or creator.  It is one end of curiosity. 

Where you get trouble is where the person having the religious experience is rigid in his belief, and charismatic enough to get into power.  This leads to state religions, holy wars or jihads.  If the guy next door doesn't acknowledge your beliefs, he is a heathen, pagan, infidel, or whatever.  If he challenges you, then he is a heretic. 

Man is a violent beast, and just loves to attack.  Pacifism is an overlay that may or may not suppress the aggressive tendencies in man.  It is amazing how quickly these overlays, such as pacifism, atheism and civilization, get stripped away when you are at the bottom of a slimy, wet foxhole, with ordinance falling all around you.

Peace is wonderful, but I am afraid conflict is inevitable.

[ShortStraw 1]

Pacifism, atheism and civilization are other ends of curiosity.  And noble pursuits that may one day lead to a time when conflict is not inevitable.

Pursuing those overlays is one of the joys of being Human.

Peace is wonderful