One, Two or Three Files needed??

[mrbisonm 1,620]

Although I am a member since almost the beginning of this site, I can't know everything about the game, the functions,the styles and also this site. So, once in awhile questions like this pop up and I can't find the answers when searching (or don't know exactly how to go about the search).

When I download stuff from the STEX, I often see that there are 3, sometimes 2 and even only 1 file (or more than 3, more .desc and .model files for the props) included in the download. I know the most important files are the .lot, .desc and the .model files. Now, sometimes I see only the .lot and the.desc files and other times only the .lot and the .model files. I know that .dat files have usually everything needed included and that .lot files alone only are mostly Lots (no BATs). Confused?......lol
But what  in the world exactly do we need when there's a BAT involved? All three? Only two? Which ones? Only the .lot and .desc, or only the .lot and .model files?.

There seem to be different downloads on the STEX that only have two files, both either .desc or  .model files at times, including each time the .lot file though. Do all the possibilities work, or is it that still some others don't know about this and upload only half of their files? Some of the lots never work, meaning that either I cannot find them, or they never seem to grow (please don't give me those things like having more patience or that the conditions aren't right for it to grow. Believe me I know how to play a lot more than the average on this site.)

Thanks for clearing this up once and for all. Much appreciated.

mrbisonm

[Constantina 5]

Hi,

Normally, a ZIP file containing 3 files usually indicate a growable and ploppable building. 2 files usually indicate an individual prop, and 1 file ZIPs contain in most cases DAT files. Some ZIPs are expansions to other STEX downloads.

It depends on the type of model.

[karaku 2]

Hi, I am fairly new too all of this stuff but in making my first BAT/Lot I learned a thing or two.

First, for every custom building or prop there will be a .sc4model file, if the lot doesnt use a custom building or prop there shouldnt be a model.

Second the sc4Desc file seems to be needed mostly by the lot editor. When everything is connected correctly it isnt needed however if things arent hooked up quite right then not having it could cause a problem. The reason that I believe this file unnecessary is...

Third the sc4Lot file contains all the information the sc4Desc file has plus the added information of where eveything goes on a lot.

My experiences with the lot editor are well... interesting. I'm not yet sure wether the lots produced by LotEditor require the original Desc file but I do know from my experience that they can be edited not to. I will commence further testing...

[moganite 4]

I will try to awnser this the best I can

If it is a BAT I would be expecting it to just be a SC4model file. This file is essential wether it is ultimately a building or a prop. Just after export to SC4 plugins folder there is no desc so its up to someone to meke it..

The desc file contains the properites of the building if it was made a building and the prop is its a prop.

similarly the SC4lot  file contains the lot configuration and the building exemplar.

Now heres the thing the extensions are only so that you can recognise what they are. It doesn't matter what the extensions are just dont make it something like .exe or a pic file then you OS will spit the dummy if you rey to run it. The files are just containers for the individual compnents.

The component that is the most nesscary  is the model file ot the export from the BAT. Why ? it is the file from which the other 2 are made. The lot file is then the next most important but it is optional if you want to make a new lot out of it . The desc is not needed if you have alot configuration that has the building exemplar in it. To tell that just looking at the files it is impossible so you would need look at the files in either SC4tool or  Ilive's reader or some other program that does the same thing.

I think Twrecks could explain it better than me as i am particpating in his modding school and he already has the information available and written up.

[mrbisonm 1,620]

Thanks for trying to help me figure this out (or may I say to understand it).

Constantina and karaku, what you mentioned didn't clear anything up, I already knew this, but thanks anyways, much appreciated.

moganite, excempting the props, texture etc files, let's try to ask this again:

.lot + .desc +.model files ONLY and all together in one upload are what?

.lot + .desc files ONLY and all together in one upload are what?

.lot + .model files ONLY and all together in one upload are what?

.lot file is the file that we did in the LE and it presents the Lot (including the props,tex's etc), I know that.

.model file is the file that is created once the 3d model is exported, I know that also

.desc file is the file after exporting the model file, done in the PM to define where it goes in the menus, I know that too.

......but what the heck is the combination of them? Which ones are needed? What is the difference between a:

1.  *.lot + .desc* upload 

2. and a *.lot + model* upload

3. and a *.lot + .desc + .model* upload

Thanks

mrbisonm

[NicolaiS 8]

Originally posted by: Constantina Hi,

Normally, a ZIP file containing 3 files usually indicate a growable and ploppable building. 2 files usually indicate an individual prop, and 1 file ZIPs contain in most cases DAT files. Some ZIPs are expansions to other STEX downloads.

It depends on the type of model.quote>

As usual you are not answering the question and are confusing the item even more. Could you just stop replying to any question asked and refrain yourself to your non-existing BAT releases?

---

mrBison,

The number of files in a download doesn't necessarily mean anything. It is well possible that the uploader included multiple files because the package has more then one variant, or a number of necessary files are combined into one.

What should be included can be disected by what the download is supposed to be. As Moganite already poste, T-Wrecks has created an excellent tutorial in which all this is explained thoroughly and clear.

I will try to explain ( a bit ) of it here. If you have additional questions, or want to learn more I suggest you contact T-Wrecks for the tutorial ... It contained a whole new world of knowledge for me.

But anyway ...

When somebody has created a BAT and wants to share it with the community as a lot in most cases three files are needed:

1. model file ( name.sc4model ), in this file the model created by the Batter is saved. with the plugin manager you can give this model values which tells the game what the building represents; for instance it tells the game if its a ploppable or growable building.

2. The values created by the Plugin Manager are saved in a desc file ( name.sc4desc ) and holds the specific values designated to the building in the sc4model file.

3. If we want the model with its values to show up in the game we need to have it on a lot. With LE we create the lot and when saved a sc4lot file is created ( name.sc4lot )

All the above info can be merged into one file and usually such a file is named .dat and includes all of a number of the above mentioned files. Creators sometimes merge their files into one dat file to keep the plugin folder tidy and help the end-user to prevent losing some of the files.

For ALL growable downloads you will need either all three file types ( model,desc,lot ) or one dat file ... this depends on the uploader.

A ploppable building needs two of the files ... the model file and the lot file. When a ploppable building is saved in the LE it includes the desc file into the lot file ( better said it combines the values of these two files ).

...

To make it more complicated ... when a download contains several lots, meaning both landmark, plop with jobs and grow their can be an abundance of files, if the uploader hasn't packaged the files in a neat way. Most "professional" uploaders, like BSC, have developed a general method to package their material in a easy to use way.

I hope this makes things more clear, but if not don't hesitate to ask.

[BarbyW 40]

mrbisonm, I posted a "tutorial" on intermediate modding that may help to clear up your confusion. It is here: https://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=109&threadid=79978&enterthread=y

As you will see TWrecks and I had a subsequent discussion which may also clarify things a bit better.

There should not be a lot + .desc upload as the desc needs a model to go with it.

A lot + model should have the desc embedded in the lot. This is normal for any ploppable/civic type buildings as LE does it for you but as you can see from my tutorial any lot can have its desc embedded.

Lot + desc + model are what I would describe as untidy files

Hope this helps.

[T Wrecks 10,209]

Hehe, that's right. 

Ok mrbisonm, I remember how you asked such a question once in the STEX comments because you were slightly surprised by the apparent lack of a file you would have expected to be there. I will try my best to explain it, and in order to do so, I will copy some key paragraphs of the 1st chapter in that little modding school I started.

Let's begin with this one:

Most people will say that you need the following three files: A model file (.sc4model), a desc file (.sc4desc), and a lot file (.sc4lot). This is essentially correct.

But what about those downloads where there is no desc file? And what about those where you have only a .dat file? What are these .dat files anyway?

One simple fact: Technically, all the files you need are .DAT files - the extensions are just for your convenience, but do not have the slightest relevance for SC4.

Does this mean we could take a lot file and name it .DAT? Yes, it does. We could also give it the extension .scratchmyback, but that wouldn't really look very trustworthy.

Well, then how does SC4 know what's the model and what's the lot?

The answer is: All the files you can see in your explorer windows are so-called "containers". This means that they are just a uniform package for the content that really matters. SC4 loads the content of the containers and uses references and connections between the internal files, but doesn't care about the containers themselves. So to speak, it doesn't matter for the game whether the required files arrive all in one package or distributed among smaller packages. They are just there, complete with different names, to make it easier for us, the users.

As moganite explained so well already, the basic element is a model file - usually with the extension .sc4model, but as I explained above, it could have any extension you like.

Now that model needs a set of stats and parameters which define it as either a buildingor as a prop. This set is called a building exemplar or prop exemplar.

Building exemplars hold detailed stats like occupants, pollution, query sounds etc.

Prop Exemplars hold some basic parameters like on which zoom levels they will be visible, if they light up at night or not, etc.

Both of these exemplars are usually packaged in .sc4desc files, but they can easily be merged into ther files. This makes sense e.g. when making a prop pack: Instead of all the models and their associated prop exemplars each in a separate desc file, you merge them all and get one file - that's much more convenient for the user.

The final element is a so-called lot exemplar. This holds all the lot information such as zone type, growth stage, and lot design. It is usually inside a container file that has the extension .sc4lot.

That would be the three elements you need: Model (mostly .sc4model), building/prop exemplar (mostly .sc4desc), and one or more lot exemplars (mostly .sc4lot).

However, since the "visible" files are mere containers, I can merge them as I see fit. I could merge a building model, one building exemplar for the growable version, one building exemplar for a landmark version, two lot exemplars for the growable version, and one lot exemplar for the landmark version, all into one file. Most people would give such a file the extension .dat, but it doesn't really matter.

Some common approaches are merging building and lot exemplar so that the loose desc file becomes superfluous. For everything that can be plopped (landmarks, plops with jobs, transportation lots, civic buildings and utilities), the Plugin Manager merges the building exemplar into the lot file by default. This means that when you d/l a landmark or a bus stop or a power plant etc., and there is a .sc4desc file in the ZIP, delete the desc. It's an unnecessary duplicate.

For growables, this does not apply. Growables can have the building exemplar and the lot exemplar both inside the lot file, but this must be done actively by the creator.

If you want more info on how to identify these elements, I can link you to the first two modding school chapters - much of the stuff there is about the basics of the SC4 file types and how to identify them.

---

For now, here's a brief outline of typical scenarios for growables:

example.sc4model

example.sc4desc

example.sc4lot

(model, building, and lot exemplar each in separate files)

example.sc4model

example.sc4desc

example1.sc4lot

example2.sc4lot

example3.sc4lot

(model, building, and lot exemplar each in separate files, but various lot options)

example.sc4model

example.sc4lot

(model separate, but building exemplar and lot exemplar merged in the lot file)

example.sc4model

example.dat

(same as above, but the merged file that holds building and lot exemplar(s) got renamed to .dat. Maybe the dat even holds various lot options.)

---

Here is the same for everything ploppable:

example.sc4model

example.sc4desc

example.sc4lot

(the most common sight - but since building and lot exemplar get merged into the lot file by default, the desc file is superfluous and can be deleted!)

example.sc4model

example.sc4lot

(everything you need - building and lot exemplar are both in the lot file by default, the model is separate)

example.dat

(the creator merged it all into one file and called it .dat. This dat might hold several building and lot exemplars, btw.)

---

Finally, some more complex example - an NDEX BAT might look like this:

tall tower.sc4model

tall tower grow.sc4lot

tall tower plop.sc4lot

tall tower additional prop.dat

(the model is separate. The lot files hold both building and lot exemplars, and the prop dat holds a prop model and its prop exemplar)

Without merging, the same download could look like this:

tall tower.sc4model

tall tower grow.sc4desc

tall tower grow.sc4lot

tall tower plop.sc4lot

tall tower additional prop.sc4model

tall tower additional prop.sc4desc

(Same as above, but building and lot exemplar for the growable are still separate (default for growables), whereas those for the ploppable are merged (default for ploppables). Finally, the prop model and its prop exemplar have not been merged.

---

I hope you are not more confused now than you were before, but that's really the way things are. There is no easy answer, because there is not the one and only way to organize files.

In case of doubt, the uploader should have posted some instructions or named the files in a way that will allow you to see what you need for which version. Whether these files are two, three, or only one, depends solely on the approach the creator/uploader chose for packaging the actual SC4-internal files into container files that you see in your explorer window.

EDIT

Now that I am passing on my knowledge to others, I should really learn to sit back and let others do the job - I'm apparently too slow anyway!

 

[Andreas Roth 607]

Originally posted by: T Wrecks 

For everything that can be plopped (landmarks, plops with jobs, transportation lots, civic buildings and utilities), the Plugin Manager merges the building exemplar into the lot file by default. quote>

Minor correction: It's the Lot Editor that merges the building exemplar file into the lot file by default, not the Plugin Manager. I guess you meant the right thing, but got confused by your most elaborate answer.

[mrbisonm 1,620]

Wow, that was one very useful tutorial T Wrecks, and with NicolaiS, BarbyW and Andreas it was IMPOSSIBLE not to understand. Finally I got it, thanks to you. Thanks very much T Wrecks for this detailed and precise explanation. Now you can sit back and enjoy your slowliness, because I am ready to explain that part to others.

Now, there's a little problem on the STEX though I think, because somewhere on it there's a growable lot that has the .lot and the .desc file only, and as I understood, that is impossible to work. I will try to locate it.

Hey I hope this will be read by many others, because it has been more than useful to me after all these years wondering what I needed.

Thanks Barby for the link, I will visit it tomorrow also.

Greetings with much appreciation ( I OU1)

mrbisonm

[T Wrecks 10,209]

As for growable stuff that contains only a desc and a lot file, I suppose this might be stuff like I am doing - new lots for a building that had already been released. In this case, you will have to d/l the original building. In the last file I uploaded, for example, I managed to forget adding this most important dependency to the STEX description at first - I have corrected this stupid mistake in the meantime.

Other cases are, for example, vlakhaas' CSX Derby 2x2 commercials - these contain only a lot file as well. To build on what was mentioned above, this lot file in fact contains one lot exemplar and three building exemplars. The idea behind is that you need a prop pack which contains the building models, and the building models are declared as a building family. That's why there are three building exemplars - the three "family members", so to speak.

No matter which one of these two cases applies, a building model is required from somewhere.

The third possible case is a simple lot without any BAT on it - let's say someone took an original SC4 park as a basis to start with, and then slapped some textures and props on it - in this case the lot will rely on the invisible park "building" contained in the original SC4 files.

[BarbyW 40]

Yes, TWrecks, I have also been known to forget which "building" I had used as SC4Tools does not show the model as a dependency even though it is. And the CSX Derby 2x2s were done by me:-) but the Readme did point people to the pack where the models were.

[NetPCDoc 1]

The above is great info - for the newbies, and covers most simple situations. Unfortunately for them (and MOST Fortunately for the advanced players) the STEX has, from time to time, introduced some more complex situations.

NOTE: Naming Conventions are established for the convienence of humans - and where possible should be adhered to (so as not to confuse other humans).

1st - if one is uploading just a custom lot - with no custom props or buildings (such as using the lot editor to JUST change the size of a Maxis provided lot) - all that will be uploaded is the .sc4lot file. This is also usually true for moving "standard" props and/or buildings to custom lots (although occasionally a .sc4desc will be required to define the roll of said "standard" props and/or buildings).

2nd - the .sc4model file indicates the presence of CUSTOM props and/or buildings, and when one or more of these (model) files goes missing one gets those nice gift wrap boxes on their plugin lots.

3rd - to really complicate the above simple situations - there are batters who will upload all those wonderful custom props and/or buildings in a "prop package", and then leave a note (i.e. readme file) that the lot you are trying to download is dependant upon one or more of these "prop packages" - this telling you that you need to go and get the dependancy packages in order to make the lot work as it's creater intended it to. Please don't take me wrongly here - I don't know of a better way to do this - so I'm not intending to cast any stones here (and I sincerely apologize to anyone who believes otherwise).

So the short answer (for players - a.k.a. non-batters) to the starting question - make sure to include any and all the .sc4model, .sc4desc, .sc4lot and .dat files that are included in the zip (or self-extracting .exe) - and then do not forget to check for a readme (which may have critical placement instructions and) - that will tell you what other files (if you have not already gotten them) that you will need to go and get, in order for the downloaded lot(s) to work. And only after you have seen the lot in the game, may you try removing some files from your plugin folders, see what effect this has on said lot, and decide for yourself whether or not the said files may be safely (and permanently) deleted.

Hopefully I've not confused this issue too much more,

NetPCDoc

No detail is too small to be micromanaged.

[moganite 4]

MrbisonM asked

......but what the heck is the combination of them? Which ones are needed? What is the difference between a:

1.  *.lot + .desc* upload 

2. and a *.lot + model* upload

3. and a *.lot + .desc + .model* upload

quote>

To awnser your question

1.  You need a lot file but you can create that easily in LE. Best way to pack a building only no lot is to inculde both in the one file describing the building and who made it.

2. Lot and model no additional file needed as the lot contains the building exemplar

3.  All 3 you can safely remove the .desc asscoated with the building.

The issue of people uploading in this form  is a problemand one that can be solved using education. If you see someone who is using the model files and desc files and lot files in thier upload  and they are new or newish you can suggest to them that there is a better  way pack files so that the user can identify easily and describe how to use SC4tool and the reader.

This means also showing them that to reduce the ammount of overhead on thier machine as well as a others it is better to merge  files that go together.

At present i have moved from the confusion of files to a building and lot files.

This is how I pack at present

 The building is in its own file with its exemplar, and the lot has the building exemnplar but the lot configuration too. I do this for the cases where someone wants to make a new lot and remove the original for any reason. The new version of the power plant and bombpark I made is packed this way while the bomb lot I released has it in an all in one package.

The bomb park was packed in an all in one so that you are garanteed to have a lot with the building even if it is ugly. The lot was more as a addon I used while testing the building functions. While testing I kept the props down then added them at the end you can't have a bare lot.

There is a PNG in lot files that takes up alot of space but it doesn't appear  to be used in game anywhere. Delete it and the file size can shrink dramatically.  Someone who is new to making lots or BATing probably is unaware of all of this so it would be a good idea to point them in the right drection.

[BarbyW 40]

moganite: your response is not quite correct and mrbisonm's original question has been answered already. You have not added anything by your post

[mrbisonm 1,620]

Now wait a minute!! Do you mean that I can delete any/all .desc files and everything will be still working and showing up ingame? Whoa!

If that's true , than I am lost again.......lol

BTW, all my 160 or so Lot/BATs that I have uploaded (except props) contain all three above mentioned files and that is what GrampAl has taught me in the earlier years.

[moganite 4]

if it is a building desc file and it has a lot file yes. I am relying on what Twrecks has mentioned in the modding school I am not completly sure about growable yet at this point i really like to test things out for myself defore I say its true or not. If it is a prop exemplar it is nessecary to keep them. I will need a screen shot to describe how i think they are referenced from the lot configuration file proprties.

If you want to create a new lot without modding the building again ie a different version of the same lot it is usually quicker to start from scratch IMO. The .desc files have a use for creating new lots and storing props.

My other thought is if you feel safer doing it that way and it works for you then its ok

I am preparing to do my first growable but it will take awhile as I dont think I could find what I need for the building and lot.

BarbyW

I apologize for repating it but if someone cant see it easily I hope it helps if I say the same thing a bit diferently if it is hard to understand someone else's thoughts. If there are any parts that are incomplete or wrong you can fill us in and give your perspective. I propmise I wont go off the deep end(sleep deprivation can make us all iritable) like i have in various other places

[T Wrecks 10,209]

As I said, for everything that can be plopped from a menu, you can delete an included desc file (the one with the building exemplar*) because as soon as the creator saves a lot file for his creation, the building exemplar from that desc file will be merged into the lot file automatically.

Afterwards, the loose desc with the building exemplar is a superfluous duplicate that can only cause confusion, for example when you change a value in the desc file, but the change doesn't seem to take effect - because a duplicate of the old, unchanged desc file is in the lot file.

Growables don't get merged automatically. This means that when a growable comes with a desc, you need to keep it!! When the growable already comes without a separate desc file, the creator has probably merged it into the lot file - in that case you don't need to worry where the heck that desc file might be.

In any case, I recommend copying unnecessary desc files for ploppable stuff into a temporary backup folder before deleting them. In case that the creator did something wrong or something bad happened, there is an ever so slight risk that the building exemplar inside the lot file may be damaged or contain some wrong settings, whereas the loose desc contains a building exemplar that works fine. If that separate building exemplar gets read after the merged one, it will override the merged exemplar and possibly makes the BAT work after all. This shouldn't happen, and if it is the case, the creator is very lucky that his stuff works at all, but I reckon it's better to be on the safe side even if the risk is next to non-existent.

_____

*: Now in case there are several desc files and the names don't reveal to you which one holds the building exemplar and which ones contain prop exemplars for props that might be included in the download? There's an easy trick even without looking into the files: desc files with building exemplars usually have a file size of ~1.6 kilobytes (for growables) or ~1,8 kilobytes or more for ploppables. desc files with prop exemplars don't exceed 1.2 kilobytes. That's because of the different amount of properties and paramters inside the files.

[BarbyW 40]

Thanks, TWrecks. You beat me to it. I shall not add any more for fear of confusing mrbisonm more than moganite already seems to have done.

[moganite 4]

me either .. it appears i am pretty lowsy at explaing stuff.

[Andreas Roth 607]

If you don't fear using the Reader or SC4Tool, it's rather easy to find out if a SC4Desc file for a ploppable building is really needed or not. Just open the file and look for two of the properties, "Item Icon" and "Lot Resource Key". The following pic shows the SC4Desc file that was included in a landmark download. As you can see, both properties are set to 0x00000000, that means, no icon and no lot is assigned. This is because the Plugin Manager is only responsible for the building values, but not for the lot.

Now, when you create a ploppable lot, like a landmark, the Lot Editor uses this exemplar file as a template and includes it into the SC4Lot file. The properties mentioned above are assigned to a lot exemplar file and an icon, respectively:

Whenever you find a combination like this, you can safely delete the loose SC4Desc file (the one that has 0x00000000 properties, like the ones marked in red). As T Wrecks mentioned, the creator might have mixed up the files or modded them in a special way, so the SC4Desc file is still needed, therefore, it's advised to keep a backup copy. If you experience crashes or brown boxes after removing the SC4Desc file, simply copy it back from your backup folder.

[JBSimio 152]

This is some very good information!  Thanks to everyone for clearing up a few grey areas for me.  May I clarify one final "semi-related" thing?  T Wrecks mentioned that the file extensions are essentially not important.  Is this also true for the actual file names?  I know the first half of the name can be changed to something more descriptive, but I've always noticed that the files are given group and instance numbers at the end of the name.  Are these a necessary element, or can these numbers be eliminated?

JB

[Andreas Roth 607]

The filenames are completely irrelevant to the game, so you can name them to your liking. The number that is added by the Lot Editor to the SC4Lot file is the instance ID of the lot exemplar file, and the number that is added to the SC4Model file corresponds with the Resource Key Type 1 property in the building exemplar file.

[JBSimio 152]

Thanks Andreas!  That's what I thought, just wanted to be sure.

JB

[mrbisonm 1,620]

Somehow I am glad I asked that question now, because it showed me more than I was asking for. I have understood a lot of things and some more are still to do ,and maybe after that I will start LOTting my BATs again. The main reason I stopped is that I couldn't make any *useful lots* since my partner in tweaking retired. (btw....Yes BarbyW, I have downloaded the SC4-Tool, now I have to understand it....lol)

Thanks folks, and I hope that this will help many others too.

mrbisonm

[Vlakhaas 13]

Well a lot of hi-tech explanations here ... let me add my piece ...

With the BSC making use of large MEGA PACKS it happens that I may need a builing with specific values for a special reason ... what will then happen is that I will use an existing model from an existing MEGA PACK and create a DESC file for it that suits my needs ... now I have a ???.SC4Lot file and ???.DESC file in my package ... with a reference to the MEGAPACK as a dependency. This is how it happens that you get a DESC file without a MODEL in a package.

I used this a lot in my MEGA LOTS for Industrials and housing complexes.

[mrbisonm 1,620]

Well, Vlakhaas, you're right and thanks for explaining this also. The lot that I downloaded is one of yours and it has only a .lot and .desc file (no .model file), but a reference to the MEGAPACK as a dependency.