Court of Arbitration and other ideas

beebs · March 30, 2006

I think that that might start flame wars between members if some start to call out on others and stuff like that.

beebs · March 30, 2006

I think that that might start flame wars between members if some start to call out on others and stuff like that.

Jasoncw · March 30, 2006

I agree with beebs, that might not work.

But yea, there should be a way of arguing if someone should have been banned or something. There are always pms though, and if the moderator doesn't have a good enough justification, another pm could be sent to Dirk or someone.

I think that for everything a moderator does, even just for editing posts, a pm should be sent to whoever was moderated explaining what happened, and also so that the person knows who did the moderating. One time, one of my threads got locked, but I didn't know by who, so if I told a moderator about it, that person might be the one who locked it. Plus, in general, if I think some mod did something wrong, I don't know who I should report, because I don't know who did it. A solution to that part would be for the moderators to be required to keep track of what they do. If they edited a post, they should record the time, what the origonal post said, and what they changed it to, and at the end of the week, the records should get sent to an admin. I don't think the moderators do enough moderating for that to be too much. It would also help the admins know that the site is being moderated how they'd like it. I think it's a simple and easy solution.

Jasoncw · March 30, 2006

I agree with beebs, that might not work.

But yea, there should be a way of arguing if someone should have been banned or something. There are always pms though, and if the moderator doesn't have a good enough justification, another pm could be sent to Dirk or someone.

I think that for everything a moderator does, even just for editing posts, a pm should be sent to whoever was moderated explaining what happened, and also so that the person knows who did the moderating. One time, one of my threads got locked, but I didn't know by who, so if I told a moderator about it, that person might be the one who locked it. Plus, in general, if I think some mod did something wrong, I don't know who I should report, because I don't know who did it. A solution to that part would be for the moderators to be required to keep track of what they do. If they edited a post, they should record the time, what the origonal post said, and what they changed it to, and at the end of the week, the records should get sent to an admin. I don't think the moderators do enough moderating for that to be too much. It would also help the admins know that the site is being moderated how they'd like it. I think it's a simple and easy solution.

Yellowlab · March 30, 2006

We already have a place to air grievances. If you feel that you have been in some way wronged on this forum, you can email an administrator or PM them.

The actions of moderators on this site are fully monitored by the administrators here. Any moderator who is found to violate codes of conduct on a repeated basis is fired, simple as that.

As far as courts go, say I post a message in New Member Information filled with expletives and insults to several minorities. Were a court system used, that message would be up there for as long as it took a complaint to be filed, a court date granted, a court date set, a jury called, the trial conducted, and a guilty verdict passed down. For that long, there is offensive, totally inappropriate language on the forums that is driving Simtropolis members away.

A court complicates matters far too much. A complaints department already exists.

I like what JasonCW said a few places up. I will repost it here for anyone who is still confused as to the nature of this site.

There is an indirect way of voting on staff and rules, and that is if you stay or if you leave. If you don't like the rules, you go to another site, and if you like the rules, you stay.

Yellowlab · March 30, 2006

We already have a place to air grievances. If you feel that you have been in some way wronged on this forum, you can email an administrator or PM them.

The actions of moderators on this site are fully monitored by the administrators here. Any moderator who is found to violate codes of conduct on a repeated basis is fired, simple as that.

As far as courts go, say I post a message in New Member Information filled with expletives and insults to several minorities. Were a court system used, that message would be up there for as long as it took a complaint to be filed, a court date granted, a court date set, a jury called, the trial conducted, and a guilty verdict passed down. For that long, there is offensive, totally inappropriate language on the forums that is driving Simtropolis members away.

A court complicates matters far too much. A complaints department already exists.

I like what JasonCW said a few places up. I will repost it here for anyone who is still confused as to the nature of this site.

There is an indirect way of voting on staff and rules, and that is if you stay or if you leave. If you don't like the rules, you go to another site, and if you like the rules, you stay.

bourneid · March 30, 2006

I understand what the argument is here....That ST should be a bit more Democratic. That Mods/admin have the final word and therefor we as members are at the mercy of their discretion (or mood).

I agree....but it is plainly stated many times that this is not intended to be a democracy.. it is a Dirktatorship. But even so, I belive that the mods/admin have done a fair job of maintaing a balenced treatment of folks...Have their been times when someone in power has gone a little too far...yes...but in those situations things have been work out fairly. Dirk has been a pretty leanett person....and there have been Mods/adimins asked to step aside.

So unlike other sites where there are no ways to resolve issues, there has been a greivence proceedure of sorts here. If you feel that you have been wronged you can contact dirk or one of the other admins and plead you case. But remeber that you must have self control...and respect. It will not help your case to insult, or act a fool....it also doesnt help blasting the site at other sites.

I dont right this in an attemt to point fingures to anyone or anything, I right this out of exsperiance. I was banned for a while myself....Aronon banned me perminettly but I realized that I had earned that ban. I didnt try to blame anyone else for my poor actions. I didnt insult him. I calmly discussed it with him after we had time to calm down. We talked it over and that instead of permintet ban I would have a "time out".........When I came back I had a new outlook, and I understood that it was my actions that leed me to that point....I can back detumind to be a productive member of the community. And everything that I have done sense then has been in that aim.

bourneid · March 30, 2006

I understand what the argument is here....That ST should be a bit more Democratic. That Mods/admin have the final word and therefor we as members are at the mercy of their discretion (or mood).

I agree....but it is plainly stated many times that this is not intended to be a democracy.. it is a Dirktatorship. But even so, I belive that the mods/admin have done a fair job of maintaing a balenced treatment of folks...Have their been times when someone in power has gone a little too far...yes...but in those situations things have been work out fairly. Dirk has been a pretty leanett person....and there have been Mods/adimins asked to step aside.

So unlike other sites where there are no ways to resolve issues, there has been a greivence proceedure of sorts here. If you feel that you have been wronged you can contact dirk or one of the other admins and plead you case. But remeber that you must have self control...and respect. It will not help your case to insult, or act a fool....it also doesnt help blasting the site at other sites.

I dont right this in an attemt to point fingures to anyone or anything, I right this out of exsperiance. I was banned for a while myself....Aronon banned me perminettly but I realized that I had earned that ban. I didnt try to blame anyone else for my poor actions. I didnt insult him. I calmly discussed it with him after we had time to calm down. We talked it over and that instead of permintet ban I would have a "time out".........When I came back I had a new outlook, and I understood that it was my actions that leed me to that point....I can back detumind to be a productive member of the community. And everything that I have done sense then has been in that aim.

Duke87 · March 30, 2006

Okay, first off, use normal text size in the future. Your posts are hurting my eyes.

Second off.... well, it's in interesting proposal, but it isn't doable here. I seriously doubt the prospect of a "dirktatorship" is going to change as long as dirk is in charge.

I will give vid one thing, though. It is a bit unfair to inflict something such as a ban, profile locking, etc. on someone without explaining why it was done. This is why American cops are required, among other things, to inform someone of what they're being arrested for. After all, if someone really doesn't know why it happened, what's to keep them from making the same mistake again? No big explination is required, it can be limited to things like "your avatar was inapropriate, so your profile was locked" or "you've been banned for x days for doing y"

I've never been banned at all, but I have in my 32 months here had my profile locked for two of them. The first time it was because of something I put into my sig that was deemed inappropriate. I never had this explained, I merely drew that conclusion myself since that particular line in my sig had been changed to a "your profile is locked" statement. To this day, I don't know who it was that did it. At first, I decided to just wait it out and see if the locking would either expire or be removed. After about a month, I got sick of waiting, and simply contacted who I thought was the most likely candidate: Aronion. He said it wasn't him, so I contacted dirk, who responded saying he didn't know who did it, and that he had unlocked it. This was November of '03. The other time was March of '05, when I changed my avatar to a rather gross image. When I logged on the next day, I 3 PMs in my inbox. One was from a random member expressing his didguist. The second was from a moderator (forget who) demanding that I change it. The third was from samantha, stating rather kindly that she couldn't allow my avatar to stay up any longer, and had deleted it and locked my profile, and that once I responded she would unlock it. Well, I did respond, but never got a reply and it wasn't unlocked. Again, I just waited a while, figuring that she intended to leave my profile locked in a sort of "time-out period". About a month later, I contacted her again, and got a response with an apology stating she had gotten my message but, in a frenzy of being busy, had forgotten to unlock my profile or respond.

The first time is an example of something that shouldn't happen. The second time, I hold no grudge for, it was a simple human mistake.

The final point I would like to make is that the rules seem to have gray areas. There are some words I have used several times in my history here, usually have it get left a lone, but once or twice have it get edited. The trouble is that it seems that some moderators will edit it while most will let it slide. Let me go into more detail here:

-the prime example here is "taking the lord's name in vain", that is, using the word "damn" (which seems to always be allowed), but putting a "god" before it. This is by most standards considered to be more obscene than just saying "damn" (the FCC prohibits you from saying it on the radio or on network TV), but I find myself really bothered when you end up with the word "god" getting bleeped just because there's a "damn" after it. Many websites whose owners don't like using this expression censor it the same way. This seems rediculous to me, but it would seem that the reson the FCC doesn't like it is becuase many religious freaks find it offensive. Which of course ony leads me to dislike its censorship more. Now, I use this expression a lot in real life, so naturally it finds its way into my posts when I get really mad or frustrated. The real trouble is that I really can't figure out whether or not it's supposed to be allowed here. It's been stated that this is supposed to be a "PG-13" site, and, if you folow MPAA standatrds, than it shoud be allowed. Of course, this fails to make it clear cut, as there are other words which are permitted by the MPAA in pG-13 ratings which most certainly aren't accepted here. Actually, MPAA will allow any common swear word in PG-13 with the exception of the 'f-word', which may only be used once or twice in a given movie, or it will merit an R rating. Clearly our posting standards are stricter than that. This definition of PG-13 does seem to be what usually applies to offsite links, though.

So, my argument:

-it should be clearly stated in the rules what exactly is and isn't aloud and when, and all the mods should know these standards, enforce them, and not go beyond them no matter how much they personally don't like what someone said.

Duke87 · March 30, 2006

Okay, first off, use normal text size in the future. Your posts are hurting my eyes.

Second off.... well, it's in interesting proposal, but it isn't doable here. I seriously doubt the prospect of a "dirktatorship" is going to change as long as dirk is in charge.

I will give vid one thing, though. It is a bit unfair to inflict something such as a ban, profile locking, etc. on someone without explaining why it was done. This is why American cops are required, among other things, to inform someone of what they're being arrested for. After all, if someone really doesn't know why it happened, what's to keep them from making the same mistake again? No big explination is required, it can be limited to things like "your avatar was inapropriate, so your profile was locked" or "you've been banned for x days for doing y"

I've never been banned at all, but I have in my 32 months here had my profile locked for two of them. The first time it was because of something I put into my sig that was deemed inappropriate. I never had this explained, I merely drew that conclusion myself since that particular line in my sig had been changed to a "your profile is locked" statement. To this day, I don't know who it was that did it. At first, I decided to just wait it out and see if the locking would either expire or be removed. After about a month, I got sick of waiting, and simply contacted who I thought was the most likely candidate: Aronion. He said it wasn't him, so I contacted dirk, who responded saying he didn't know who did it, and that he had unlocked it. This was November of '03. The other time was March of '05, when I changed my avatar to a rather gross image. When I logged on the next day, I 3 PMs in my inbox. One was from a random member expressing his didguist. The second was from a moderator (forget who) demanding that I change it. The third was from samantha, stating rather kindly that she couldn't allow my avatar to stay up any longer, and had deleted it and locked my profile, and that once I responded she would unlock it. Well, I did respond, but never got a reply and it wasn't unlocked. Again, I just waited a while, figuring that she intended to leave my profile locked in a sort of "time-out period". About a month later, I contacted her again, and got a response with an apology stating she had gotten my message but, in a frenzy of being busy, had forgotten to unlock my profile or respond.

The first time is an example of something that shouldn't happen. The second time, I hold no grudge for, it was a simple human mistake.

The final point I would like to make is that the rules seem to have gray areas. There are some words I have used several times in my history here, usually have it get left a lone, but once or twice have it get edited. The trouble is that it seems that some moderators will edit it while most will let it slide. Let me go into more detail here:

-the prime example here is "taking the lord's name in vain", that is, using the word "damn" (which seems to always be allowed), but putting a "god" before it. This is by most standards considered to be more obscene than just saying "damn" (the FCC prohibits you from saying it on the radio or on network TV), but I find myself really bothered when you end up with the word "god" getting bleeped just because there's a "damn" after it. Many websites whose owners don't like using this expression censor it the same way. This seems rediculous to me, but it would seem that the reson the FCC doesn't like it is becuase many religious freaks find it offensive. Which of course ony leads me to dislike its censorship more. Now, I use this expression a lot in real life, so naturally it finds its way into my posts when I get really mad or frustrated. The real trouble is that I really can't figure out whether or not it's supposed to be allowed here. It's been stated that this is supposed to be a "PG-13" site, and, if you folow MPAA standatrds, than it shoud be allowed. Of course, this fails to make it clear cut, as there are other words which are permitted by the MPAA in pG-13 ratings which most certainly aren't accepted here. Actually, MPAA will allow any common swear word in PG-13 with the exception of the 'f-word', which may only be used once or twice in a given movie, or it will merit an R rating. Clearly our posting standards are stricter than that. This definition of PG-13 does seem to be what usually applies to offsite links, though.

So, my argument:

-it should be clearly stated in the rules what exactly is and isn't aloud and when, and all the mods should know these standards, enforce them, and not go beyond them no matter how much they personally don't like what someone said.

SamFlash · March 30, 2006

I guess I'll jump in here with my two cents worth, if anyone cares.

Simtropolis is a community of many different people from around the world with tremendous variations in age, language, education, experience, socialization, likes, dislikes, etc. The point being that, in spite of all these differences, Simtropolis works pretty well. Not perfectly perhaps but pretty darn well. To this point the Amins and Moderators have done a difficult and time-consuming job pretty admirably. Once again, not perfectly but pretty darn well. What has been purposed would , in my opinion, undermine their authority. Once members learn that they can challenge the moderators and have "their day in court" it will be the beginning of the end of Simtropolis. What has kept Simtropolis from descending into a cesspool of petty squabbles and personality conflicts is the authority of the Moderators, ably supervised by the Administrators.

I do think that someone who is banned or locked out should be notified as to the what and why of their offense and the duration of their punishement. That just seems fair and I think it should be done by an Administrator and not a Moderator. One suggestion that I do have is for a notice to be posted when someone is permanetly banned from Simtropolis. It doesn't have to go into detail but simply outline the basics. It would help reinforce the rules we all need to live by, if we choose to stay here, and end much of the speculation and gossip about what really happened. The notice would not be open for replies or comments.

SamFlash · March 30, 2006

I guess I'll jump in here with my two cents worth, if anyone cares.

Simtropolis is a community of many different people from around the world with tremendous variations in age, language, education, experience, socialization, likes, dislikes, etc. The point being that, in spite of all these differences, Simtropolis works pretty well. Not perfectly perhaps but pretty darn well. To this point the Amins and Moderators have done a difficult and time-consuming job pretty admirably. Once again, not perfectly but pretty darn well. What has been purposed would , in my opinion, undermine their authority. Once members learn that they can challenge the moderators and have "their day in court" it will be the beginning of the end of Simtropolis. What has kept Simtropolis from descending into a cesspool of petty squabbles and personality conflicts is the authority of the Moderators, ably supervised by the Administrators.

I do think that someone who is banned or locked out should be notified as to the what and why of their offense and the duration of their punishement. That just seems fair and I think it should be done by an Administrator and not a Moderator. One suggestion that I do have is for a notice to be posted when someone is permanetly banned from Simtropolis. It doesn't have to go into detail but simply outline the basics. It would help reinforce the rules we all need to live by, if we choose to stay here, and end much of the speculation and gossip about what really happened. The notice would not be open for replies or comments.

dev · March 30, 2006

I think there is a good bit of power hunger in some of the moderation...a ton of bias...and a lot of unfair prejudice...But there is nothing that will stop that really...

dev · March 30, 2006

I think there is a good bit of power hunger in some of the moderation...a ton of bias...and a lot of unfair prejudice...But there is nothing that will stop that really...

mtbrocket · March 31, 2006

Most excellent replies. People are thinking. It has been well established by now that this is a Dirktatorship and that he and the rest of the Simtropolis staff do a great job. Set that aside so we can speculate. It is just for fun after all.

This is the 21st century, Yellowlab, so I don’t think a court of arbitration has to emulate the real world. I am confident a simple set up can be created that is web specific.

Duke87 has some good ideas about informing members of their misconduct. And several people seem to agree. Your insight on PG-13 is very poignant. I do think a gray area should exist in the rules as this is an imperfect world but maybe you are right that the rules could be more defined. Could members give input on those details?

Many people have talked about the rules and conflicts between members and moderators. Now what about the grievances between members? Many of them are misunderstandings. But a simple misunderstanding can lead to bitterness and unruly punch-counter punch actions. The results of such a feud could harm the community. (Be over dramatic for one sec.) Are there ways that members can be active in setting the decorum of the forum? He he he.

-Dan

p.s. It is funny, on one of my computers the x-small font size is huge and on other it is tinny. I will make the font bigger and the pie higher.

mtbrocket · March 31, 2006

Most excellent replies. People are thinking. It has been well established by now that this is a Dirktatorship and that he and the rest of the Simtropolis staff do a great job. Set that aside so we can speculate. It is just for fun after all.

This is the 21st century, Yellowlab, so I don’t think a court of arbitration has to emulate the real world. I am confident a simple set up can be created that is web specific.

Duke87 has some good ideas about informing members of their misconduct. And several people seem to agree. Your insight on PG-13 is very poignant. I do think a gray area should exist in the rules as this is an imperfect world but maybe you are right that the rules could be more defined. Could members give input on those details?

Many people have talked about the rules and conflicts between members and moderators. Now what about the grievances between members? Many of them are misunderstandings. But a simple misunderstanding can lead to bitterness and unruly punch-counter punch actions. The results of such a feud could harm the community. (Be over dramatic for one sec.) Are there ways that members can be active in setting the decorum of the forum? He he he.

-Dan

p.s. It is funny, on one of my computers the x-small font size is huge and on other it is tinny. I will make the font bigger and the pie higher.

choco1 · March 31, 2006

This is an interesting discussion, and the comment I most agree with so far was by mjig_dudy.

"i'd just like to say: if it aint broke don't fix it. simtropolis woks jut fine"

And I'd have to agree, the idea of having a court to decide matters is a very utopian idea, but I feel that Dirk runs this website perfectly. The rules are strict, I personally see that as a good thing, simply because it just makes this a friendlier place for everyone. When you enter simtropolis, you check out your real life and all the baggage it carries at the door. I personally feel that the people who don't like the moderation are the ones who have trouble doing that. I see things I disagree with, but I accept them as others opinions and move on.

Thats why I think the moderation needs to be kept tight, to keep simtropolis in that level of unique community which is completely seperated from real life. If you bring in every member's real life opinions into a court system in a website you suddenly get people attacking each other for their beliefs, who they are, and everything about their real life. I think that to keep a good website atmosphere working, you need exactly the kind of moderation we have here. By smart people who make smart decisions based on a black and white code of conduct for the entire site.

This is a place for chatting and discussion, and I can't help getting the sence that this is somewhat like walking into a cafe, and attempting to start up a system which would see you vote in the waiters, and the manager, and the chef!

That was just my opinion though, so feel free to disagree with me! I'll be watching this discussion to see where it leads.

Cheers, Choco.

choco1 · March 31, 2006

This is an interesting discussion, and the comment I most agree with so far was by mjig_dudy.

"i'd just like to say: if it aint broke don't fix it. simtropolis woks jut fine"

And I'd have to agree, the idea of having a court to decide matters is a very utopian idea, but I feel that Dirk runs this website perfectly. The rules are strict, I personally see that as a good thing, simply because it just makes this a friendlier place for everyone. When you enter simtropolis, you check out your real life and all the baggage it carries at the door. I personally feel that the people who don't like the moderation are the ones who have trouble doing that. I see things I disagree with, but I accept them as others opinions and move on.

Thats why I think the moderation needs to be kept tight, to keep simtropolis in that level of unique community which is completely seperated from real life. If you bring in every member's real life opinions into a court system in a website you suddenly get people attacking each other for their beliefs, who they are, and everything about their real life. I think that to keep a good website atmosphere working, you need exactly the kind of moderation we have here. By smart people who make smart decisions based on a black and white code of conduct for the entire site.

This is a place for chatting and discussion, and I can't help getting the sence that this is somewhat like walking into a cafe, and attempting to start up a system which would see you vote in the waiters, and the manager, and the chef!

That was just my opinion though, so feel free to disagree with me! I'll be watching this discussion to see where it leads.

Cheers, Choco.

Micah · March 31, 2006

If you want that type of system, create some type of site and do that. Simtropolis is not going to venture into that type of system because they understand that only the most popular will be voted on. The ST-Staff will pick the people who they can trust & who is just right for the job!

Micah · March 31, 2006

If you want that type of system, create some type of site and do that. Simtropolis is not going to venture into that type of system because they understand that only the most popular will be voted on. The ST-Staff will pick the people who they can trust & who is just right for the job!

Voar Tok · March 31, 2006

Originally posted by: mtbrocket

Most excellent replies. People are thinking. It has been well established by now that this is a Dirktatorship and that he and the rest of the Simtropolis staff do a great job. Set that aside so we can speculate. It is just for fun after all.

quote>

This isn't something that is "just for fun." What has been proposed is a very serious matter, and not one that should be taken lightly. In fact, the more this is talked about, the more I think that this is a bad idea.

Voar Tok · March 31, 2006

Originally posted by: mtbrocket

Most excellent replies. People are thinking. It has been well established by now that this is a Dirktatorship and that he and the rest of the Simtropolis staff do a great job. Set that aside so we can speculate. It is just for fun after all.

quote>

This isn't something that is "just for fun." What has been proposed is a very serious matter, and not one that should be taken lightly. In fact, the more this is talked about, the more I think that this is a bad idea.

mtbrocket · March 31, 2006

From now on I don’t want to hear any more grievances members have experienced from moderators or from other members.

For those that feel that they are compelled to say how great everything is as is, there is already a forum for you called "Welcome to Simtropolis 5.0".

I think that the whole "this is a club", "if you don’t like it then leave" is a bit excessive. It is that mentality that has been used to exclude people throughout history. Is there not an approach that is not so black and white? I think I have heard enough people saying that it will not work, I don’t think hearing it from yet another person adds to the forum. Let’s move past that dead horse and try something else.

I hope you understand these rules but if the forum loses focus it will get locked down.

What I would like to hear is some ideas on how to let people express their grievances without undue burden on the moderators and with some membership participation.

Thank you chocolatemax285 as your second reply was much more reasonable than your first.

Voar Tok, I think you are over reacting. No one is storming the Bastille.

Micah, the zeal for popularity is already a problem on Simtropolis. People "bump" (adding a comment just to advance the page) other people’s forums already. I do not think a court would add to that problem. It might help reduce the problem, as people will become aware of it

Fellows, I really don’t think we need a full-blown judiciary system. A Court of Arbitration is nothing more than a small neighborhood court. Why is it not possible to emulate its core function in the cyber world? So far the only reasons I have heard are from people who think I want to copy a real world system without adjustments. Why can’t PMs or IMs be used? Moderators already spend their time reading forums full of nothing but complaints and/or arguments so I really don’t think even the creation of a forum just for grievances would create that problem or increase it. At the very least it would isolate it.

-Dan

Edit: fixed rearrangement of words from bold font issue.

mtbrocket · March 31, 2006