When Is Mass Transit Neccessary?

[madkingchris 0]

I've been playing SC4 for awhile now, but have just begun to successfully build a large city without losing money. I have a population of 50,000 on a large city layout. It is divided into quarters - 1/4th Industrial, 1/4 Commercial, and 1/4 Residentials in opposite corners. I'm noticing homes are not being built in the outer spaces of my Residential zones, even though the demand is high. Is it possible that I need to introduce mass-transit to the Commercial area in order to promote more Residential building? My traffic congestion is green. Also, what form would be suggested for a virgin mass-trasiter like myself? Does the 8-to-10 tiles rule apply to all forms of mass transit?

[Zelgadis 638]

When you get to 50,000, I'd say that some form of mass transit is absolutely necessary. Especially if your city is spread out on a large map. At least have a bus system, but also consider rail of some kind. Subway is my favorite, but it's quite expensive.

The tile rule doesn't necessarily apply. I've had sims walk for a long way before. But I do use that guideline myself when building subways.

ISF

[Peorth 17]

I don't think introducing mass transit will spur residential growth directly. If I'm not mistaken, the game engine actually builds residences first, then calculates the route to a suitable job. Thus accessibility does not initially play a role in the formation of residences, though it will be important later, when a true long commute can make the residents abandon the area.

The main factors determining R growth are two D's, demand and desirability. You need the two present to make residences grow. Since you have high demand, you might want to increase your land desirability by planting trees, building parks, etc. In addition, you should know what rewards increase desirability and which decrease it. The Mayor's House, statues, House of Worship, etc. are examples of the former while the Country Green, Advanced Research Center, etc. belong to the latter. Thus, you should never place the latter ones near your R zones. One useful trick I often use to facilitate R growth is to plant God mode trees. Since the normal trees takes too long to grow, I access the God Mode again using ctrl-alt-shift just to plant trees all over the R new zones.

The cheapest and most effective MT at low population sizes are buses/bus stops. Each bus stop has a coverage area 6 tiles in radius. The placement of bus stops is highly dependent on your city layout but an excellent guide is to place stops in your most dense R areas, e.g. near skyscrapers. High-density R$ buildings (e.g. Project Bootstraps) will usually generate much higher bus stop usages compared to higher wealth skyscrapers. Of course, don't forget to put stops too where the workplaces are.

Lastly, I'd like to point out a bit about building hierarchy. It probably isn't applicable to your case (I assume your non-developing zones are vacant), but it's still nice to know. R buildings can only evolve in one direction, that is R$ -> R$$ -> R$$$. Thus, if all your R zones are filled with R$$ and R$$$ buildings (possible through taxation), even if your R$ demand is off the charts, you'll never see an R$ building grow over the higher wealth buildings.

[storms991 0]

Rebuttle!
Actually, placing mass transit will help with your development. It raises the number of jobs in the area, increases demand cap, and is attractive to med and low wealth.
do you have the NAM, because if you don't thats your problem right there.
it is better to place mass transit in cities without a grid, beause you can find more 1x1 spots to just fill in.
Cheers!

[+Guest]

Oh sweet Mass Transit.As a rule of thumb I always do it from day one.If you wait and those Skyscrapers start growing then out comes the dozer.You can hold off for awhile but try to Pre-Plan for the future.Goodluck

[winonanick 0]

mass transit is always needed, imo. start with buses than add a train.

your problem may be commute times. I would personally mix your zones together more than you are. You are making your poor sims drive all the way across town to get some eggs...

[Peorth 17]

Date: 2/14/2006 4:15:32 PM
Author: storms991
Rebuttle!

Actually, placing mass transit will help with your development. It raises the number of jobs in the area, increases demand cap, and is attractive to med and low wealth.
Cheers!

quote>

I guess you mean rebuttal

Mass transit does NOT increase RESIDENTIAL demand capacities. That is a function of structures like parks, plazas and the like. Mass transit only lifts commercial demand caps, and only when connected to a neighbor. For example, a single road connection to a neighbor (even Sim Nation) will lift the Co$$/Co$$$ cap by 10,000, while a rail connection lifts it by another 10k. Regarding jobs, is it it even that significant? Of course buses need bus drivers but I don't think it has many major impact in terms of job production. And last, when you say attractive to med and low wealth, you're implying that MT has a direct effect on desirability (e.g. like parks). As far as I know, that is not the case. The fact that MT is often used by R$'s and R$$'s doesn't necessarily mean they built their houses there to use the bus stops or train stations.

Anyway, I forgot to touch on it earlier but the lack of R growth might possibly be due to demand caps. Try placing parks and other recreational areas and see the effect; better yet use Equinox's RCI Query mod to see the percentages themselves.

Also, about bus stops and populations, I generally place them when I start hitting 20-30k, though can you actually go without MT at much higher populations, depending on your layout. I don't place them earlier because they're almost useless at low populations. Of course, not building early means you have to plan in advance where to put the stops. Better yet, just use the roadtop stops (at the STEX), so you don't have to use 1x1 pieces of land and disrupt the zoning.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Rather than play strictly within the parameters of the game, I try to logically figure out when bus lines are needed. I live in a rural area, and I know from experience how a small amount of transit would help.

I agree with blackbeard. Put in bus shelters from the beginning. If you start properly with single occupancy lots, you will discover that R

[Tolomar 5]

I start my MT off as soon as i start going from a rural farm town, with low density zoning to Industrial town, with med density zoning...a few bus stops in the residential area and in the industrial areas too (spaced about 6-10 spaces away from each other at the stater, as the city grows you can put more in as demand dictates)...with Rail passanger station inbetween for the long haul trip from the RES area to the industrial area...i tend to have a large distance between my RES and Ind sections

 

a bus stop right next to the rail station is a big help...you get to triple dip on transit fees as the sims switch from 1 MT service to another...(sims take the bus from home -->rail station--> bus stop---> work)...they you build the MT up slowly as the city progresses, keep in mind that bus stops in your R$$$ areas are a waste, R$$$ sims will drive about 80-90% of the time even if MT is quicker,

stick to areas with R$$ and R$ sims...they use MT a lot

 

using this method and watching the transit map, your MT will make money and lower comute times

if you go wild on the MT to early, it could end up costing you money, paying for rail stations and bus stops that aren't being used

[sixers33 3]

Anu alternate transport to the monorail, trams, roads, trains or busses???

 

Any mods that would be good to use to make a big city when you have a really bad mayor? (me)

[madkingchris 0]

I'd like to thank you all for the advice/info, etc. I did some fooling around last night, and here is what I found. Adding a block of light Commercial to the centers of my Residential areas gave those outer Residential areas a boost in development without impacting the development of my major downtown-commercial district. (Sort of like a small strip mall in the suburbs, right?). So now my Sims have a shorter drive for eggs .

[Nardo69 51]

I agree with Blackbeard and the others that you should begin with MT from day one. Especially a good RR network needs quite place you don't have when you have already some bigger developement.
It is a good idea, too, to use RR lines as a kind of developement axis especially for large tiles. Highways are also possible but a highway network covering a large map is way too expensive if you start from scratch.
And the basic MT is bussing. Actually I don't think you can have too much of it!

Bernhard

[cogeo 960]

Date: 2/14/2006 9:17:54 PM Author: Tolomar

...you get to triple dip on transit fees as the sims switch from 1 MT service to another...(sims take the bus from home -->rail station--> bus stop---> work)...

quote>

Tolomar, you are wrong on this, the game calculates the fares based on passengers and the distance traveled, that is passenger-kilometers, not the number of transit switches (they do not get additional tickets for different MT services). All correctly modded stations have the Transit Switch Fare property set to 0. The only exception are the tollbooths (and they are intended to work so). So the increase in fares may only come from increased usage of MT.

[EricN 0]

Date: 2/14/2006 2:45:41 PM
Author:madkingchris
I've been playing SC4 for awhile now, but have just begun to successfully build a large city without losing money. I have a population of 50,000 on a large city layout. It is divided into quarters - 1/4th Industrial, 1/4 Commercial, and 1/4 Residentials in opposite corners. I'm noticing homes are not being built in the outer spaces of my Residential zones, even though the demand is high.

quote>

If your city is still growing, don't worry about undeveloped zones. The sims are just building bigger buildings instead of many more small buildings.

1) At 50,000K population, you have gotten past some important stage limits, so your city is really starting to grow up instead of out.

2) Residents will go for the more desirable areas first, and the fringes of a large zone are frequently less desirable for many reasons.

3) Consider that one medium condo building is equivalent to several dozen single family lots, and a Project Hope or whatnot is equal to several hundred undeveloped lots.

4) If you think the undeveloped lots are a serious eyesore, then raise the desirability...plant some trees, and possibly build some parks. Sims will grab them in no time if you have positive demand.



As to your original question about Mass Transit, busses are nice to have from day one, but everything is mostly eye-candy, even trains. However, you can get some really good looking cities if you build first and then try to squeeze in a complex intermodal MT system.

Just don't bankrupt your cities on the eyecandy. Hospitals and Parks are far more crucial to the economic livelyhood of your city.

[EricN 0]

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