PLease try to be constructive

[Rochefort 13]

Firstly, I'd like to apologise if this is not the right place to post this but I've recently noticed an increase in negative responses to new Bats, Lots, CJs etc..and i want to throw my hat into the ring to say...GET A GRIP PEOPLE AND BE POSITIVE !!!

This is a community where people take time and effort to offer up their best efforts to contribute towards your enjoyment of the game. Sometimes these do not conform to the rules or they may not be the most original ideas on the site, but the fact is the people who post them are doing so for no reward and more often than not, we all benefit from their input.

 

Constructive critisism is excellent and helps to improve what we see here, but quite often what I read is little more than small minded ego boosting bullying.

 

Respect the efforts our fellow members put in and remember that the very people you slag off could turn out to be tomorrow's simgoober, Tonks, barbyw or any number of the individuals that make our game play experience so much better than Maxis planned for (apologies to the countless talented individuals who contribute who I've not mentioned by name). How stupid will you look in the future if they turn out to be anywhere near as good as the names I've mentioned? Let's not lose the chance of another simgoober by destroying someone's confidence on their very first release.

 

I'm no tree hugger but we need to look after the members who contribute and remember the difference they make to our game.

 

Rant over, you may return to what you're doing.

 

 

[Cjah 15]

I agree.

I have always had the higest respect for baters and these remarks and comments can really kill peoples motivation.....

 

I'd love to see these people learn some manners but it will never happen...

[cnystrom1 1]

I agree, constructive critism is great, because it helps people, but too many people just say this sucks or wtf?, with no feedback at all (i doubt they even use it to test it in game and just see 1 screenshot), but saying good job can be just as bad, unless it really doesnt need fixing. we should be fair in rating, which btw almost no one rates or comments anymore, and try to help people. now copying, stealing, or falsely advertising something defenately needs to be pointed out, but thats another case. just my 2 cents hope i dont offend anyone.

[delboysim 1]

Lets get things in perspective here - garbage is garbage wether its created by a university professor or by a dyslexic chimpanzee. What is the point of praising something that is totally lacking in expertise, talent, or usefullness ?

Up until recently the STEX was renowned throughout the SC4 world as being THE place to find excellent quality buildings, textures, maps, mods etc to enrich and enhance our enjoyment of the game. But look at it now - absolute GARBAGE is being uploaded. BAT's without descriptions or even pictures, Mods that actually wreck the game, maps that are knocked together in 30 seconds I made this whilst fooling around with photoshop ??????? Remarks like that show absolute contempt towards the community - the user might just as well say This is absolute rubbish but I'll upload it anyway because you are a bunch of idiots and I dont care anyway

 

The name Simgoober has been mentioned a lot lately (plus many others) - this guy must spend hours and hours and hours painstakingly designing, improving, and perfecting his creations before he uploads them - he is a very talented man, but more importantly he CARES about the community and about the quality of his work

 

It seems to me that anyone can upload anything lately and if its garbage he is greeted with the comment Awwww but its his first attempt so give him a chance - get real people - garbage is garbage PERIOD.

[GreekMan 246]

I agree too. You should just say nice things about CJs even if you don't like it. For the bats and stuff you shouldn't say anything if you don't like it.

 

- GreekMan

[Cjah 15]

And bashing is bashing....

SO what is garbage????

 

I really think your being harsh to those newbs that are new to Bat or map making...

 

The mod people....well yeah I think alot of mods are crap,but for every couple of crap mods there is a mod that is revolutionizing the game for the better of the world wide Sim city4 community...

 

Anyway I think we shouldn't even bash the mod people....

 

but I always thought since Dirk owns everything here....he should recieve the lot,Bat,map or mod and based opon his decision uploaded to the STEX...

 

either that or make a committie for uploading bats and that such.....maybe have SG or EQ or omeone pro be the head of that commitie...

[soldyne 111]

there is fine line between constructive critisism and being mean.  if something is carp then one should either just ignore it or should give some kind of useful feedback as to why the particular thing in question is carp.

 

just telling someone that their lot is ugly and bad will not help that person to become a great BATer.  asking them to change a texture or move around a certain prop is much more helpful.

 

just because someone's first upload is a little childish or simplistic does not mean they don't have the potential to become a great BATer.  eventually the greats like Simgoober, Dusktrooper, and the many others on the STEX will no longer be able to contribute (for whatever reason).  We need to encourage new blood to try their hand at it so the great tradition of SC4 improvement can continue indefinately.

 

besides if something is really bad then no one will dl it and it will just get ignored anyway, no point in making the person feel bad on top of it all.

 

a little advice I like to follow is that if you are going to tell someone about a problem then you should also tell them about a solution, otherwise you just another part of problem.

[soldyne 111]

Date: 1/12/2006 9:05:58 PM Author: Cjah

And bashing is bashing....

SO what is garbage????

I really think your being harsh to those newbs that are new to Bat or map making...

The mod people....well yeah I think alot of mods are crap,but for every couple of crap mods there is a mod that is revolutionizing the game for the better of the world wide Sim city4 community...

Anyway I think we shouldn't even bash the mod people....

but I always thought since Dirk owns everything here....he should recieve the lot,Bat,map or mod and based opon his decision uploaded to the STEX...

either that or make a committie for uploading bats and that such.....maybe have SG or EQ or omeone pro be the head of that commitie...

quote>

 

a commitee.  I like the idea, but I am sure that such a job would be a full time commitment.  I am sure Dirk has enough work on his plate already without needing to look over and test every single upload on the STEX.  not to mention that many of the Pros on the STEX also have lives outside of Simtropolis and SC4.  yes, yes, I know it sounds crazy, but, they do!

 

however, If some of those pros would like to volunteer for the position I think it would be a great idea.

 

There should also be a set of standards to judge a BAT/Lot/Mod like:

professional design

uniquness

building stats - water, pollution, garbage, occupancy, demand cap relief, etc

dependencies

and...well...you get the idea.

 

[XpirAment 0]

This is part of the reason why the STEX has ratings.

Personally, I was raised if you don't have anything nice to say...

So, rate it, give it a thumbs up or down and move on.

[deadwoods 542]

I do agree there should be constructive criticism, not just bashing. There are a thread about just this within the last few weeks (in the STEX forum).

But I also agree that a lot of content that has been placed on the STEX recently is just not appropriate, both because those coming to the STEX expect content that is playable in the game and because everything loaded on the STEX costs real money in resources that Dirk has to find (the server space and bandwidth is not free).

First, and this is the item that has raised this thread I assume, is posting a jpeg file in a zip expecting it to be used as a BAT. This person had created a lot using the LE and hadn't quite got a handle of this aspect, then put a jpeg in a zip and posted it as a bat. Whilst it's not appropriate to bash this person for their efforts, I'd suggest going and looking at the various articles here on ST to figure out what it is they're trying to do.

Secondly is the craze of taking some obscure picture (like that of your pet lizard) turning into a greyscale image and posting it as a map. C'mon folks. If you can go to the effort of doing that, one something that has very limited playability, why not go the extra step and actually make a useful map.

I don't want to discourage attempts to learn, but if you're developing something and don't quite understand, post something to one of the forums and ask others to help.

[Jellyfeetjie 0]

Well, I live by this rule: if you can't say anything nice about someone/something than rather keep quiet.

 

I think that if you really don't like something, and/or it caused some problems in your game, rather send the person a pm, and tell him/her your constructive critism. No need to bash the person in public or even to use foul language.

[ancientsociety 26]

I can see both sides of this.

On one hand, I agree with delboysim. Crap is crap. There is a lot of useless junk on the STEX that really needs to be taken down. Anyone who has spent some time going through STEX will realize when someone:

 

a. Has done an awesome job and has put time and effort into his project

b. Has put a lot of time and effort into a project but it just needs improvement

c. Has put absolutely NO thought or effort into making a quality project and just uploaded for the heck of it

 

 

A should be praised, B should be praised with constructive criticism, and C should be taken off the STEX. Plain and simple. As a BATter, I'd rather have someone give me their honest opinion and criticism, then simply pat me on the back and say good job.

 

But, here's something everyone who agrees with the constructive criticism argument should remember:

 

IF YOU DOWNLOAD SOMETHING, RATE IT!!!!!!

 

Too many people in this community download something and then never take the 5 minutes to post a comment and rate it. Even if you say great, that's better than nothing.

 

Everyone keeps mentioning Simgoober. Have you looked at his rating percentage???? Some projects have about 1000 downloads with about 50 comments (maybe). That's just pathetic! We cannot improve the quality of this site if people just keep leeching projects off the STEX with no feedback. Even if you download it and never use the lot, you should at least say thanks in the comments.

 

Personally, my lots have averaged 100-150 downloads with about 5-8 comments. That's a 5% rating percentage! It sort of offends me. If I'm to make my BATs better and more user-friendly, I need people's feedback about them and the more I get, the better impression of what is good or bad about them. Personally, I'd like to see users' downloads/comments percentages tracked like in a torrent site. If you download a bunch of stuff, but don't rate it, then you can't download more until you've rated enough.

[Voar Tok 4]

Everybody should try to be considerate of the other person when they make reviews.  Simply saying You Suck isn't being considerate of the other person.  I'm not saying that you speak in flowery language and say stuff like It looks really good when in reality, it looks like a cheap knock-off of a Picasso; but likewise, if it's bad, try to tell them that it is bad without attacking that person's integrity.

Also, there is a certain obligation to the people that create this stuff to not upload just any old thing.  I've made a few things with the BAT, but I haven't uploaded them because they look like a pile of garbage.  Hence, I don't upload them out of respect this site and so that Dirk doesn't have to host something that would never get downloaded.

 

I'm sure that there is a happy medium somewhere in this, but both sides need to learn from their mistakes.

[sim1234 62]

My Suggestion to all BATters, Lotters, Mappers etc. is to open up a Showacse thread so we can see what they're making. We can then advise them on what to do to make it better before they upload it to the STEX.

[+Guest]

i haven't seen that much bad comments for lots and bats in a while, just kinda constructive criticism but one thing i've noticed is comments for maps are spiriling into that is crap, wasn't worth uploading, waste of time etc etc etc, mostly done by delboysim who criticises these maps for being unplayable, well let me tell you something! it does not have to be what your standards of playable are! some people maybe interested in the plain weird fantasy maps for crying out loud! just because it doesn't suit your standards doesn't give you that instant right for you to say it's crap pure and simple or adding it's not playble to the end of whatever you commented, and to continue my rant delboy, i really don't like your maps at all, but you don't hear me complaining do you?  i might find them really but i let you just get on with it, and a large 5x5 or whatever you do with pretty much flat, low leveled playable map each created in approx 3 hours? can you do anything else!? is anything bigger, higher, more challenging to game play to the simulation out of reach for you? a 3 day or even 3 week map would be something better and extraordinary, or even real scale map? remember babba's maps? sure the red background maybe blinding but the poor fellow was trying to do a realistic, scale model playable version of 2 cities in Australia which some people might have wanted to recreate, and has probably been put off thanks to your i'm-perfect-everyone-else's-maps-are-crap-and-unplayable stinking attitude, sorry delboy, a big two thumbs down for all maps from me

 

next rant in 5.7 posts time

[delboysim 1]

Dont hear you complaining TC ????

 

 

Rolls on the floor in fits of Laughter

 

You cried like a baby when in chat I used capitols on yer name !!!!!

 

OOOOO Look he used capitols where there are no capitols !!! roflmao - you my insignificant little friend are a very precocious youngster - and you are not the only one .............

 

I really dont care what you think of my maps - or of me as a person, but while several of my maps are averaging download rates better than 1 in 2 - I will keep on making them ....

 

and for your information - Babba the australian kangaroo was exposed as a FRAUD - he did NOT create a map - he COPIED the screenshot of somebody elses work - the greyscale he put up with it did NOT match the screenshot

 

Finally - I generally judge my comments on the download rates that a file achieves - I simply have the guts to post what others only THINK !!!!

[Rochefort 13]

Well I suppose posting this in the first place at least raised a little debate, but let's cut the petty squabbling eh?

I don't expect everyone to behave like Mother Theresa but I think it sucks and crap as comments do nothing but show up the personality of the people who posted them.

 

I totally agree that some stuff uploaded to the STEX is not good enough compared to the standards we've come to expect, but the truth with some of this is that first attempts can often be poor. I merely think totally discouraging the people who put these things forward might well lose us someone who will get better over time and be able to contribute something worthwhile in the future.

 

Deadwoods makes a good point that there are threads available that newbies can be pointed towards and hopefully they will learn something. Plus he's right, the jpeg in the file did start me off on one. It was a waste of time uploading it, but there are other ways to point this out and who knows? maybe the person who did this will come back with something well worth our patience in the future.

 

I've tried making my own BATs and its tough, takes a lot of learning, patience and imagination to come up with something original. Don't kill off the enthusiams that was obviously there in the first place to spur these people to try.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[delboysim 1]

Rochefort

 

Despite what some may say or think about me, I do actually agree with your comment about not frightening off young hopefulls with disparaging comments - but the point I am trying to make is that a person either has talent or they do not.

Again - in total contradiction to the likes of tc's comment about me - I would be the first to admit that there are mapmakers around ST that are CONSIDERABLY better than me - Blade for instance, Mallow the Cloud also of course - but he has dissapeared it seems.

 

There are some highly talented people in this community, but what some dont seem to accept is that there are also young FOOLS who upload with absolutely no regard for quality. As I have said earlier in this thread - garbage is garbage - and is most certainly NOT judged on MY opinion alone. I simply post what many others only think.

 

I feel the biggest problem with this community is the fact that there are too many Prima Donnas (albeit talented Prima Donnas), and also an influx recently of rebellious youngsters who upload garbage just for the sheer hell of it. I applaud the notion that there should be some kind of vetting process on all files to the STEX - but as some have said, who can perform that service ?? If it were to be members then we again would have the Prima Donnas refusing files that do not reach THIER standards, or appeal to thier tastes

[tchaos713 5]

Well, I have been watching this thread with interest for two days now. I rarely weigh in on these as they inevitably become flame wars that infuriate the mods who then shut down the thread.

Garbage may be garbage, but that's no reason to say that it sucks. Personally, I think that it is more constructive to say something like This seems to be a rather poor effort, x is wrong with it, why don't you open a thread to let people give you feedback. If someone has gone to the trouble of creating something, then they're probably interested in making some better things as well. Even if the first effort is awful (and it usually is), everyone can improve.

That being said, stealing someone else's work or misrepresenting your own is very bad. Hence the Report Lot button. There's no need to flame someone in the comments. Perhaps it would be better to say something like This map/lot/bat is fake or stolen, I have reported it.

I think this issue (like the one about not flaming CJs) exposes something a little deeper. When we have new members, we simply direct them to read various threads in a multiple of forums. I did that, but I am not everyone. Much work has already been done to make the Omnibus a place where people can go to get important info about the site and the various tools available. The thing is that many people don't read those things and then just go blundering about.

As for the age issue (which I've seen come up often), many members here are young, this is true. However, age is not something that is necessarily shared on this site. There's no need for it to be. Talent with the BAT or iLive's Reader or whatever else is not restricted to age. I'm 24 tomorrow and I guarantee that if I threw together a LOT or BAT or Map and posted it, it would get negative reviews. However, many members who are only in their teens have posted excellent work. The idea that, because you think you are older than other members, you can say whatever, judge however, and put down others is asinine (pardon my language). Get a grip. Another poster spoke of Prima Donnas totally ignoring the irony that he can be just as bad. We ALL can. That's part of human nature. There's nothing wrong with taking pride in your work.

The bottom line is, if you think it's bad, don't download it.

[Constantina 5]

My idea of a forum was: keep it simple, bright, considerate and to know what you were talking about. For example, if a thread was about Graphics card issues, don't change the topic mid-thread to something about llamas or U-drive-it problems. And last of all, don't abuse punctuation marks.

[delboysim 1]

*Takes off Prima Donna hat and replaces it with another*

 

That was a very articulate telling off chaos ............. and accepted :-)

 

You are perfectly right of course, but I am not so much of a Prima Donna as you may think - I just despair at seeing such outragious rubbish on the STEX - and YES OK - that INCLUDES some of mine !!!

[XpirAment 0]

The best solution I can think of is for Dirk to consider adding some coding/script to the STEX that deletes any lot, bat, map, modd after 100 votes that does not rate higher than a 5.

Bad STEX uploads will dissappear through a simple rating system, and good ones stay on.

(At the same time, I also would like to see forum threads with no comments after 12 months deleted.)

[sparkythepenguin 90]

Newgrounds.com, a flash animation/games showcase site, has an interesting system. Ratings mean things stay on or get taken off. Also, users build up reputation points as they vote- the more you vote, the more value that vote has. Newgrounds also has several competing individuals and teams that make content, and a collection of each team's work can be easily accessed.

Perahps a good idea would be to have the STEX have content sections from all the various design houses. That way, all the various city recreation projects, BAT teams, map teams, etc could be permanently on the STEX, and are only open to uploading by members of those teams. An easy way to find established and worthy work, to preserve it, and sepearte it from all the rest.

New sections could be petitioned for, but not from those making the content, but by request from those downloading a particular user's work.

Also stuff that are nonsense files, junk, etc could be all contained in one general place in each category (maps, BATs, lots, etc). If a voting system could be initiated, this stuff could disappear in order to save bandwidth.

I'm all for custom content, and am especially (maybe too) dependent upon constructive criticism. But yeah, crap is crap. I'm glad there are people out there who step up and say whether or not it is. There ought to be not only more people trying to obtain constructive crtiticism, but also experienced modders/BATers/etc.. out there commenting on the forums too.

If I only had a dime for every time someone on the STEX complained about something I uploaded. It's not like I keep all my BATs secret before they're released, or that I don't give anyone time to comment on them! Sorry about that sounding like a rant, it's really just water off a duck's back. You win some, you lose some...

[delboysim 1]

But yeah, crap is crap. I'm glad there are people out there who step up and say whether or not it is.

 

And I didnt even have to pay sparky to agree with me ........

 

 

 

Amen to that Sparky - and while crap is uploaded I will CONTINUE to call it crap .......................

 

 

You CANNOT teach a dyslexic chimpanzee how to perform differential Calculus - and neither can you teach a talentless cretin how to make a good BAT, map, Lot,  or whatever .........

[screamingman12 30]

The best solution I can think of is for Dirk to consider adding some coding/script to the STEX that deletes any lot, bat, map, modd after 100 votes that does not rate higher than a 5.

 

I personaly am against this system, because for one, people don't always vote, and second, take a look at all of my uploads, my first version of the NYC tram currently has 256 downloads and a rating of 4. But I also beleive that the STEX should be put under a self-moderating system of some sort. But I do not think that it will go into a downward spiral, like the Official exchange has, because there is more expert quality stuff on it than trash. I also think that if someone puts a comment such as this lot/prop/modd sucks or your horrible at BATing should be required to give a public appology explaning their rude comments. But untill then, we can only hope that someone will do something.

 

P.S. I don't think that some of those unplayable maps are bad, whoever made the $2 bill map, (which I liked but didn't download) should get a 10 for creativity.

[BarbyW 40]

No but if you give enough monkeys enough typewriters and enough time can they produce the works of Shakespeare?

 

Barby

[gascooker 4]

The STEX is getting more and more like the official site as of recent times. This is a shame. I especially feel for Dirk who has to host it, in terms of cost and bandwidth.

While, i don't claim to be any kinda judge 'n jury on STEX stuff, there is an increasing amount of ego-posting going on. So called beta Lots, for a start. Well how about a bit of testing and finishing? For me a beta stex post is paramount to an ego trip, a service that is already fully supplied by ST in the form of our own threads in the forums.

I always thought that STEX stood for Simtopolis Exhange, not, Simtrop Ego Extension, but as of recent times, it makes you wonder whether some form of editorial control needs to implemented as the community seems unable to censor itself anymore, even by the general rules and qualities that this site holds so dear.

[dev 47]

Date: 1/13/2006 7:56:07 PM
Author: gascooker
The STEX is getting more and more like the official site as of recent times. This is a shame. I especially feel for Dirk who has to host it, in terms of cost and bandwidth.


While, i don't claim to be any kinda judge 'n jury on STEX stuff, there is an increasing amount of ego-posting going on. So called 'beta' Lots, for a start. Well how about a bit of testing and finishing? For me a 'beta' stex post is paramount to an ego trip, a service that is already fully supplied by ST in the form of our own threads in the forums.


I always thought that STEX stood for Simtopolis Exhange, not, Simtrop Ego Extension, but as of recent times, it makes you wonder whether some form of editorial control needs to implemented as the community seems unable to 'censor' itself anymore, even by the general rules and qualities that this site holds so dear.

quote>


Indeed! I've seen people upload a BETA lot, or even the finished product...and find a bug and then re-upload the new lot...obviously for publicity...This is quite annoying. They will simply replace the other lot with a DO NOT DOWNLOAD and leave the file to waste space...That is ridiculous. Also, as far as clutter...prop packs are badly organized, and there are sooo many of them...Other things...mods like water mods being uploaded by the mass one at a time...put them in a pack, and then people can pick which one they want...

My,
Worth slightly more than the American version...

[delboysim 1]

Screamingman

 

Sorry but I have to comment on your post - the 2 dollar bill map was not MADE in the creative sense by that user - dya think he sat down and hand drew it ?????????? NO of course he didnt - he scanned a damn picture - used a paint prog to greyscale it and uploaded it !!!!

Where the hell is the skill or talent in that !!!!

And if its that damn good why didnt you download it and play on it ???? You contradicted yerself buddy !!

 

 

 

Barbie - I love your analogic metaphor - dunno if Shakespeare himself would agree with you though !! LOL

[gascooker 4]

For once, I find myself agreeing with you DEV. A bit of thought goes a long way in keeping the STEX pick 'n span.

I recently uploaded a prop pack whose elemnts started to appear about 6 months ago in my gmax. My ego wanted them on the STEX immediately, but my sensibility allowed me to wait and be patient until the prop pack was full and useful to ST members. I think that useability is a major issue. Most seasoned creators seem to take this into account.

Take PEG: he uploads stuff in well organised releases. This is what I called well thought out end-user cleanliness. It is pure design at its best - not just the BATS, but the user experience as well is considered. When the STEX starts to get littered with ego-posts, it diminishes the overall quality of ST.

I do, as does every BATTER and LOTTER enjoy the fact that my/their stuff is used and appreciated by others, but posting a load of crap for attention-seeking aims, doesn't even fulfill this side of a post. The STEX is a place for finished items. As Dwds pointed out above, the forums are for learning, experimenting and geting that ego boost that so many peeps seem to yearn...