Not quite understand the reason of no job zot

[a.panda 10]

Guys, I have run into the misery of no job zot persistent for a few game years and I don't know why or how I could solve it. This is the briefing...

 

The islands-based city is the first one in a new region, ie no neighbouring effect. My goal was to build a heavy industrial city with low EQ. I first fill the residential island with low density, then build upwards. I have adequate fire, police, health, power and water services. But when my population hits 25000 the NJZ appeared.

 

 

First, the traffic connection was excellent - I have an extensive bus network, connecting to many ferry terminals to the industrial island. The CS and I-D demand are negative, and the R$ demand are high in the sky. I failed to understand why those NJZ appeared, and hope any of you can shed some light on this.

[Indiana Joe 1,750]

Imbalance of job/resident wealths.  Your vast majority of jobs are coming from dirty industrial; notice all the NJZ's are over top of medium and high wealth houses.  You need more manufacturing/high tech and commercial offices; or less high income residents (let there be slums!).  Demand doesn't always want to play nice.  That's the challenge of the game.

[a.panda 10]

Imbalance of job/resident wealths.  Your vast majority of jobs are coming from dirty industrial; notice all the NJZ's are over top of medium and high wealth houses.  You need more manufacturing/high tech and commercial offices; or less high income residents (let there be slums!).  Demand doesn't always want to play nice.  That's the challenge of the game.

Thanks, perhaps the pic deceived a bit - NJZ is all over R$ and R$$ groups. It first appeared on R$ and when I bulldozed those houses the R$$ emerged and the vicious cycle goes again.

 

I should say that the NJZ first showed up when >95% of residents are low wealth. I opened up opportunities to R$$ in hope to solve the problem but it clearly backfired :S

 

This is the first time ever I approached to low density wealth zoning - usually I had mid/hi-risers at this stage so I was not sure if I have done anything wrong.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

You really have to control education levels and forbid any houses with higher levels than R$.  R$$ want office and management jobs.  The game is designed to produce YUPPY puppies.  The probably solution is a neighbouring city with those amenities that attract higher level Sims.

 

I play regionally.  Always!  You can't expect to create any type of city in isolation.  Also, work on making sure your ratio of Sims to jobs stays around 2;1.

[a.panda 10]

You really have to control education levels and forbid any houses with higher levels than R$.  R$$ want office and management jobs.  The game is designed to produce YUPPY puppies.  The probably solution is a neighbouring city with those amenities that attract higher level Sims.

 

I play regionally.  Always!  You can't expect to create any type of city in isolation.  Also, work on making sure your ratio of Sims to jobs stays around 2;1.

 

I didn't think about it - I wanted to finished a whole tile before moving on to the next one - which is incidentally a high-tech aimed city!

 

So I see my sim:job ratio is more or less 1:1, so in theory I need to double my residents. Yet they just didn't grow, even I replaced the zone with medium density.

 

Update - I have clear a lot of R$$ and R$$$ but now it's the R$ who refused to work:

 

 

This is my industrial island, I failed to understand why the commute is long...

 

 

At the meantime I'll try develop the next city and see if this helps.

[a.panda 10]

An update - I have bulldozed all residential and commercial buildings, as well as half of the industrial buildings, and let it grow under the fixed demand of 9% R$ tax and 20% R$$ and R$$$ tax. The new homes are all low wealth, but still the NJZ appears. The sim/job ratio was 2:1. And worse of all, no one is now travelling to the industrial island and NJZ is across half of the R$ buildings.

 

I've decided to bin this and redo the city - afterall it may be easier although it may not be beneficial to my game learning curve... I may run into this problem again later!

[Bones1 96]

This illustration of jobs may help:

 

 

 

It shows the relative number of jobs available for each wealth class (R$, R$$, R$$$), depending on the type of commercial or industrial building.

 

You need to have approximately 1 job for every 2 sims, though this depends on the average age of your population (more jobs are needed if a large portion of your pop is working age, IIRC).

 

So, for example, if you have 1000 R$$ residents, you'll need about 500 jobs for them. You can get those 500 jobs from various commercial or industrial buildings, but note that high-tech industrial provides 80% of its jobs for R$$. So, you'd need 625 IHT jobs to get 500 medium-wealth jobs for your R$$ residents. But you can of course get them from several other kinds of jobs too.

 

If you don't have enough jobs for a particular wealth class, you'll get no-job zots.

 

You can also get no-job zots because a resident is too far away to commute to their job. If you use NAM, that's probably not an issue, but if you're using the default Simcity 4 traffic behavior, make sure to create commerce and industry close enough to your residential areas for them to get to their jobs.

[a.panda 10]

I hate to be a nuisance, but I can't believe it. It happens again after I obliterated the city and restarted. Now it happens when population reaches 12000.

 

 

This time I taxed med- and hi-wealth resident to 20% and they never showed up, so the whole city is made of low wealth commercial  and dirty industry. There must be something wrong to my city planning, or the game (which is very unlikely!). FYI I have NAM32 with high traffic capacity.

 

The NJZ house all shows long commute time, which unless I'm wrong, the ferry is like a teleport and doesn't add to the commute time at all. So how come these houses are abandoned due to commute time? According to census there should be a few thousands vacant jobs in the city, how come these people don't take up those jobs instead of moaning about no jobs?

 

[Bones1 96]

It's been a long time since I've tested commuting and jobs, but NAM32 probably changes all that anyway. It may be possible that some of the sims refuse to take the ferry to those jobs, instead demanding to drive. Something like 50% of R$ sims want to drive to work. I'm not sure what happens if those 50% can't drive, but perhaps that's a reason for your no-job zots. I presume you've checked that your ferry isn't over-capacity, and is being used.

[a.panda 10]

It's been a long time since I've tested commuting and jobs, but NAM32 probably changes all that anyway. It may be possible that some of the sims refuse to take the ferry to those jobs, instead demanding to drive. Something like 50% of R$ sims want to drive to work. I'm not sure what happens if those 50% can't drive, but perhaps that's a reason for your no-job zots. I presume you've checked that your ferry isn't over-capacity, and is being used.

Sounds like a proper reason, I'll try zoning some industry on the same island and see what it takes me from there. I'm using the Euro setting so 80% of R$ sims use mass transit and 20% uses cars.

 

... but hang on, those are car and ped ferry terminals, but I don't see a single car using the ferries!

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Not everyone takes the ferry.  If Sims are refusing jobs then they have passed the "work in I-D/I-A" education level.  Did you lay out any farms?  Farms are really level 1 industrial.  I-D is all medium density.  Do you have any schools or libraries at all?  How about professional services?

 

For this experiment you should start with some single density C (C$) to get some shops for the Sims to work in and get groceries.  Then Farms, then medium industry.  You cannot prevent I-M except by taxing it out.  You need cops and fire protection, but no schools and minimal health protection.  A pure I/R tile may well be impossible unless it is very small.

 

Run on turtle mode.  Anything else is forcing the issue.  Make sure all your Sims get employed.  Use the route query to make sure.  You will need some way to get rid of freight.  A small port will do that trick for you, especially if it is rail enabled.

 

Above all, do not zone low density R at 1 x 2 back to back.  That just invites mansions.  Zone 2 x 1 and 1 x 1.

 

If you use ferries, they have to have somewhere to go, and there has to be jobs at the other end.

 

Oh yes, and water everywhere for improved R$ houses.

[Jasoncw 11,839]

Replace the ferries with the maxis ones. It's possible that those ferries appear to be for cars but might only be modded for pedestrians.

[a.panda 10]

Not everyone takes the ferry.  If Sims are refusing jobs then they have passed the "work in I-D/I-A" education level.  Did you lay out any farms?  Farms are really level 1 industrial.  I-D is all medium density.  Do you have any schools or libraries at all?  How about professional services?

 

For this experiment you should start with some single density C (C$) to get some shops for the Sims to work in and get groceries.  Then Farms, then medium industry.  You cannot prevent I-M except by taxing it out.  You need cops and fire protection, but no schools and minimal health protection.  A pure I/R tile may well be impossible unless it is very small.

 

Run on turtle mode.  Anything else is forcing the issue.  Make sure all your Sims get employed.  Use the route query to make sure.  You will need some way to get rid of freight.  A small port will do that trick for you, especially if it is rail enabled.

 

Above all, do not zone low density R at 1 x 2 back to back.  That just invites mansions.  Zone 2 x 1 and 1 x 1.

 

If you use ferries, they have to have somewhere to go, and there has to be jobs at the other end.

 

Oh yes, and water everywhere for improved R$ houses.

 

Their EQ are a abysmal 3. I doubt they will know anything to do other than factory workers or cafe table cleaners! I skipped farm as I am not a big fan of it.

 

I didn't mention it earlier, I have a certain amount of CS$ on the residential island on the avenues with high traffic noises. And other suggestions have also been done, except the turtle speed. I am in a hurry to fix this and move on so I just go for cheetah! Will try definitely.

 

 

 

Replace the ferries with the maxis ones. It's possible that those ferries appear to be for cars but might only be modded for pedestrians.

Two are modded car ferries but there are two more which is genuine maxis

 

 

 

Update on ferry - I zoned out some I-D on the industrial island, the buildings got built but no sims commute to those factories. The second time I zone those I-D on the edge of residential island with a seaport, and some unemployed sims do commute there by bus. There are still NJZ present, but a less proportion.

[a.panda 10]

A side question while experimenting - is it possible for the game engine to recognise these buildings as built and occupied, yet no sims actually travelled there to work? These buildings (all in the pic) are producing freight and the query windows say they are occupied, but the route query shows no commute action. I have waited long enough for the simulator to recognise their presence (i think, hence the freight route)

 

[Bones1 96]

Yes, jobs can (and do) exist in commerce and industry, without sims actually commuting there for work. They're sort of just "filler" jobs, and are available if sims want to work there, but they don't have to be filled. Running the simulator for about a year of sim-time will often help balance the transportation network. So whenever you make a change, let it run for awhile.

[cogeo 960]

The no-job zots problem may be due to various reasons, but very often it is due to unreachable jobs. I replied recently to a similar post (it was about R$$$, but the same goes for R$ too); an older post.

 

I would also comment that long commute times may be due to your networks layout. Avenues can drive your sims straight to the neighbour city, and commute to another city (even if the job is actually located just next to the border) is always "long". Try different layouts, so that your sims must commute through an area with a lot of jobs, before they can reach the border. This can act like a "trap", as your sims will pick the jobs that is closer. You can see such layouts at my posts and Sims are forced to drive through the avenue (with a lot of commercial) to get to the border; but this increases traffic on the avenue, which makes it a more desirable commercial spot, which in turn means that you have better chances of getting hirise development along the avenue, and therefore your sims are more likely to find jobs close to their homes, thus not having to cross the border. As you can see, this mechanism is somehow "self-regulating".

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Possibly some of those NJZs are sod-busters.  I really suggest you dump in five or six farms.  I use SPAM and the farms do look better.

[a.panda 10]

Yes, jobs can (and do) exist in commerce and industry, without sims actually commuting there for work. They're sort of just "filler" jobs, and are available if sims want to work there, but they don't have to be filled. Running the simulator for about a year of sim-time will often help balance the transportation network. So whenever you make a change, let it run for awhile.

Thanks for the clarification.  I found that sims won't commute further into inland, whether they arrive via ferry or bridge...

 

The no-job zots problem may be due to various reasons, but very often it is due to unreachable jobs. I replied recently to a similar post (it was about R$$$, but the same goes for R$ too); an older post.

 

I would also comment that long commute times may be due to your networks layout. Avenues can drive your sims straight to the neighbour city, and commute to another city (even if the job is actually located just next to the border) is always "long". Try different layouts, so that your sims must commute through an area with a lot of jobs, before they can reach the border. This can act like a "trap", as your sims will pick the jobs that is closer. You can see such layouts at my posts and Sims are forced to drive through the avenue (with a lot of commercial) to get to the border; but this increases traffic on the avenue, which makes it a more desirable commercial spot, which in turn means that you have better chances of getting hirise development along the avenue, and therefore your sims are more likely to find jobs close to their homes, thus not having to cross the border. As you can see, this mechanism is somehow "self-regulating".

Thanks cogeo, I actually read your piece already before I started playing, but things just got washed off after a while. I think the trap is a good idea but currently I am solving the one-city problem at the moment

 

Possibly some of those NJZs are sod-busters.  I really suggest you dump in five or six farms.  I use SPAM and the farms do look better.

 

Haha, I believe they are. I'll see how SPAM can make it better

[Bones1 96]

Thanks cogeo, I actually read your piece already before I started playing, but things just got washed off after a while. I think the trap is a good idea but currently I am solving the one-city problem at the moment

 

 

You should know that one-city regions are much more difficult than developing several cities in a region. The simulator gets very lazy about computing jobs in neighboring cities, and so you get all kinds of advantages by inter-city commuting. The game just sort of says,

 

"There are jobs that you can get to by commuting into that neighbor. I have no idea how many or if they are right for you or even if you can get to them, but if you go there we'll just assume that you got a good job".

 

Like I said, it's a stupid simulator for inter-city commuting, but as a result you get easy job access.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Just watch out you don't create a no-job-chain which sets up the infamous commuter loop if it goes across three or more cities then loops back.

[a.panda 10]

Just watch out you don't create a no-job-chain which sets up the infamous commuter loop if it goes across three or more cities then loops back.

 

This may be off topic, but how big can a loop can go without the commuter bug? Obviously the loop is made if the loop is 2x2 (i.e. 4 city tiles), but how about 3x3, 4x4, 5x5 etc? I think sometime later I'd like to make a regional highway/transit ring, like M25 in London or Yamanote line in Tokyo, and these span across many many tiles.

 

For example...

 

 

City A1 ------------- City A2 -------------- City A3 ------------- City A4 ---------- City A5

      |                                                                                                                  |

City B1                                                                                                         City B5

      |                                                                                                                  |

City C1                                                                                                         City C5

      |                                                                                                                  |

City D1                                                                                                         City D5

      |                                                                                                                  |

City E1 ------------- City E2 -------------- City E3 -------------- City E4 ---------- City E5

 

 

And, if I plan the highway exits/rail station well enough, and provide loads of jobs in vicinity, does it prevent the formation of loop?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Generally the loop can occur between any number of cities greater than two.

 

An avoidance strategy is to have a network of no return, no return, ... , no return ...

[Compdude787 916]

For example...

 

 

City A1 ------------- City A2 -------------- City A3 ------------- City A4 ---------- City A5

      |                                                                                                                  |

City B1                                                                                                         City B5

      |                                                                                                                  |

City C1                                                                                                         City C5

      |                                                                                                                  |

City D1                                                                                                         City D5

      |                                                                                                                  |

City E1 ------------- City E2 -------------- City E3 -------------- City E4 ---------- City E5

 

 

And, if I plan the highway exits/rail station well enough, and provide loads of jobs in vicinity, does it prevent the formation of loop?

That setup shouldn't suffer from the eternal commuter bug because each city is only connected to two others on each side, and the loop is so large that sims should be able to find a job before getting all the way around the loop. The setup below is far more likely to suffer from the eternal commuter bug, especially when the neighbor connections are near the corner of the city:

 

City A __ City B

        |       |

City C ^---- City D

[a.panda 10]

Good advice guys. Back to the NJZ problem, I redid the tile (again) and this time I used bridges. I didn't previously because the terrain didn't allow any orthogonal bridges between islands, but now I dug into diagonal bridges and - wow - everything works as planned. The population currently stands at 24000 and no NJZ ever happened. I am still trying hard to maintain the 2:1 sim:job ratio, but I have more jobs than sims so things should still be fine, especially with the "filler" buildings described earlier.

 

The most probable problem is the lack of direct driving option, i found that about 1/5 of the sims do drive to work. This pretty much correspond to my TSCT setting. So I think the lack of road was the reason I started the thread. The city has grown so well that I am about to start the next city tile as a residential zone to support the industry in this city!