Simtropolis Religion Thread

[Bdub01 201]

^ Why not? Religion has caused countless deaths and several/many wars through the years. Of course the Inquisition and crusades come to mind, but look at Islam. It's no perfect religion either. At one time 1000 years ago great philosophers and mathematicians came from Islam now little girls get shot in the face just for going to school. And as much as the current US president doesn't want to admit it, the "war on terror" was started by extremist Islamist who want to take down America for alleged offenses. Regardless of that, the people in the twin towers on 9/11 didn't have a fight against anyone. They were minding their own business (This may get a negative comment or two) but I can even understand attacking the Pentagon. That's at least a military target. However flying planes into non military buildings and blowing up runners in Boston is no different than Christians burning towns, raping, and killing in the name of Christ during the Middle Ages. That's my two simoleans for the evening...

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Christianity preaches love and peace.  Islam preaches love and peace.  Buddhism preaches peaceful medications and passivity. And so on.  The main religious thought always comes to taming the predatory drive of mankind.  So why should anyone care about the personal beliefs of anyone else?

 

It is too bad that predatory instincts are sometimes more powerful than thought.

[Bdub01 201]

Christianity preaches love and peace.

I can't speak for the Quran, I have a copy I bought a few weeks ago but haven't read any of it yet. But how many times in the bible , especially the Old Testament did god say to the Israelites to attack a village or town and wipe it out, killing all, man, woman, child, animals even? God apparently had a cold streak at some point. When did the god of the Old Testament change cause there appears to be two separate gods. The god of the New Testament is more lovable and cuddly. Again one reason I have trouble accepting Christianity. It's just an offshoot of Judaism.

[Cobraroll 138]

But how many times in the bible , especially the Old Testament did god say to the Israelites to attack a village or town and wipe it out, killing all, man, woman, child, animals even?

 

291,518, according to the scripture itself.

 

The guy also appears to be personally responsible for approximately two and a half million kills - at least, that's the numbers the Bible gives directly. Stuff like the Great Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and the siege of Jericho gives no concrete numbers, so those are left out of the calculations. Estimates are given, though, but I think they are a little too high. Still, numbers in the region of ten million would still be a conservative estimate.

[IL. 1,043]

Christianity preaches love and peace.  Islam preaches love and peace.  Buddhism preaches peaceful medications and passivity. And so on.  The main religious thought always comes to taming the predatory drive of mankind.  So why should anyone care about the personal beliefs of anyone else?

 

It is too bad that predatory instincts are sometimes more powerful than thought.

 

I really like how you think from your posts 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^ Well, you could say I am a dyed in the wool pacifist, but don't push it.  Like most Canadians, if you push me too far, I bite.

 

However, peaceful times are always better.  Those who aggrandize themselves by making war are bound to a final judgement either here or by history.  Shakespeare was right, you know.  "The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with the bones."

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I have a few questions regarding religion:

1. This first one is mostly for Catholics. Do you agree with the official position that the Pope is infallible? I ask this because the newest pope recently said something about atheists that do good in life can be saved after death, possibly mentioning judgement and repenting before god. After he said it, the Vatican said that Atheists go to Hell.

2. This one is mainly aimed at followers of the Abrahamic religions. How do you reconcile your belief in Judaism/Christianity/Islam knowing that official doctrine in the Old Testament and Koran states unambiguously that believers are obligated to kill nonbelievers that refuse to convert? There are also verses condoning slavery, and forcing rape victims to marry their rapists if the rapists pays the parents of the victim. There are verses that say that not eating the right foods or not wearing the right clothing lands you in Hell as well.

3. Do you believe that peaceful Christians, Jews, and Moslems are better followers of their respective religions than the extremists? I ask this because most extremists follow their Holy Books closer than modern/peaceful/non-violent/progressive/moderate/pacifist religious peoples.

--Ocram

[Mr Saturn64 742]

1. No

2. Times have changed. In Chirtsianity, there's a new Covenant. For others, if that's still present, that's barbaric.

3. Yes.

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

1. Absolutely not. I see the Pope as no different to any other human, only he has an artificially created superiority. Also, isn't telling atheists to go to hell a bit of an oxymoron?

2. Can't really answer. However ultimately I believe that people need that cultural, scientific and social understanding 2500 years ago was far different to it is today, so it's foolish to take the mentality and understanding of the Old Testament as undeniable fact, when current understanding has far surpassed it.

 

I ask this because most extremists follow their Holy Books closer than modern/peaceful/non-violent/progressive/moderate/pacifist religious peoples.

--Ocram

 

3. That is incorrect. The holy texts are full of symbolism, interpretations and metaphors and them taking the tales literally is counter-active and is not the intention of the authors.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

1.  Of course not.  Vatican II made me into a non-participant.  The Pope is just another priest.  No inspiration by election.  Utterly feudal.  We don't have many absolute monarchies left, and the Church shouldn't be one.

 

2.  Christianity has a new set of rules delineated by Jesus.  As for the rest, other times, other measures.  Obsolete now.  Too bad.

 

3.  Yes.  Ancient texts are for ancient times.  What is all this civilizing for, anyway?  You want to live in the middle ages?

[astronelson 339]

Although I am no longer a member of the faith, I would like to point out that the Catholic Church's position is not that the Pope is always infallible. Instead, the position is that he is infallible when speaking under a certain set of circumstances.

 

This set of circumstances are as follows: "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church." This is referred to as speaking ex cathedra (literally translated as "from the chair").

 

Pope Pius IX defining the Immaculate Conception as Catholic dogma in a papal bull is an example of a Pope speaking ex cathedra. Pope Francis making a comment about atheists going anywhere at all is not, since 1) he was not exercising his office to do so, 2) he wasn't defining a doctrine the Church must follow, and 3) atheists aren't a part of the Church anyway.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Quite true.  I too am a former RC.  However, the chance of the current Bishop of Rome issuing drastic Papal Bulls is slim.  This is a long-standing member of the order of the Society of Jesus, well known for cool deliberation and very good management skills. 

 

One thing that Francis will never do is stand on the balcony and yell "Deus vult!".

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I know this is old news now but I have been discussing this on MCF in the PPNS section. Have you heard the good news that Pope Francis has openly stated "who is he to judge" homosexual people? I know that many progressive Catholics are already open minded and that overcoming prejudice of some more conservative Christians is difficult but if the Catholic Church can put out a positive message of treating people who "sin differently" like real, good people, then I am happy.

--Ocram

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Sorry, it is old news.  Anyway, the general attitude of the Church will not change in any way.  Francis was expressing a personal opinion not speaking from the Throne of Peter.  The Church doesn't deal with trivialities.

[shadowomega123 4]

i considar myself a christian but im not relly big on the stareotypicel sutff lik that christians dont like gay marige and such.

 

im just too nice of a persen to disagree with that kind of stuff. plus i have severe aspergers so sometims i wondar if thats why i dont like being mean about thengs i dont like, being more sensitive and such.

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

The Bible clearly states

judge not lest ye be judged.

I'm not a very judgemental person.

[flatron 83]

Yeah, that's one of the few intelligent things that are in the bible.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

While there are some fine moral exemplars in the Bible, remember it was written for a society of at least 3 millennia ago.  Life then was short, dark and ugly.

[flatron 83]

Ok, I have to admit (or shall I say proudly state) that I've never really read the bible(seems to be a protestant thing)... Sure, we read some passages in RE, but my family doesn't even own a copy of that long time best seller

[AkemiAzula 280]

The Bible clearly states

judge not lest ye be judged.

I'm not a very judgemental person.

Ah but a truly good person would not mind being judged correctly and constructively. And if we never judged anyone we wouldn't do a thing about anything and nothing would ever happen to make the world a better place as we wouldn't distinguish between evil and good people etc.

 

I have never read the Bible in full although I attended scripture class for a year at school. But when they took Megan to Perth I stopped believing in all that nonsense and became rational and scientific and have been for 14 years now. However that doesn't mean I don't believe in morals and doing things properly. The problem with the Bible is less the fictional nature of the events portrayed than the fact it is somewhat dated, based in the old family/tribe system and pre-internet age of hunting and gathering and such. 

 

The morals in the Bible are still relevant in many cases, however with increased living standards it becomes less important to be a good person as there is less incentive. If we can get away with being evil who cares if it is wrong. The main reason society is bound together unwillingly is we are forced to cooperate for mutual benefit, or anarchy would reign. Humans hate each other for good reason of course. 

 

The only thing stopping me from burning every city on the planet and forcing Emma Watson or who have ye to marry me at swordpoint is not a moral law but common sense and practicality. This is why religion should never be taken seriously. It doesn't work when there is more than one religion or more than one person with a knife for that matter on the field of play.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I was brought up (and spit out) a Catholic and used to have a copy of the Douay (official Catholic bible) but when I moved a kept a copy of the King James.  Any yes, I've read them both through.  I just prefer the language of the KJB, to the slightly different Douay.  It is a pretty good set of short stories once you get by the political stuff in the Pentateuch.  You have to suspend your disbelief and treat most of it as fantasy.  Must be that diet of the Bard of Avon that I've been exposed to when I was in school.

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

I grew up as a Catholic . I was not your typical Catholic because I did not go to the classes. Years later my momma told me I had to make my own choice. When I got married I left what I knew as a child and became penticostal untill six years ago. I am now a fundamental independent baptists. What I can say after six years is while I believe in God and his son and the death burial and resurection of Christ I don't believe. the church to be what God intended it to be. Most churches have added rules and traditions to the law God gave us and the Bible. While I won't debate the Bible or God with anyone because you have free choice to believe or not. I do believe the Bible I just don't exactly agree with most religions. It has been my experience that most of them just want money.

[flatron 83]

Well, I don't like everything about the RCC, but I'd prefer it above any pentecostal cult.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

My RCC roots make me unfit to belong to any protestant denomination, all of which I see as heretical in some way.  I am not a practising RC either.  I have become rather agnostic.

[AkemiAzula 280]

I have been scientific and rational since the grown ups took Megan to Perth in 1999. Before then I attended scripture classes of a protestant nature, although the school was not a religious one. I had gone to church while very young in Adelaide. I think it was a Uniting church? My grandparents on my mother's side were protestants (Church of England) and all their ancestors I know of were also that way. My grandmother on my father's side was likewise from protestant roots although she wasn't as much a practicing churchgoer as my other grandparents. My grandfather on my father's side who is from Ukraine is from catholic roots. So I am three quarters from protestant ancestry.

 

Because I jumped straight from believing in God to absolute rationality and scientific reason I never went through the phase of weighing up the various faiths. My mother did that and ended up as some sort of Buddhist although she isn't a nice person despite this. My father was never religious and since he got married I don't think he has ever been to a church. My parents divorced and broke up before I was born so no, not very devout. My grandparents on my mother's side were Christian and were churchgoers, and grandfather still watches Songs of Praise. If ever you wanted an example of how to be a good Christian person look to them. They were married since 1950.

 

Despite my hatred of irrationality (and certainly not all madmen are religious) I do find many churches to be grand buildings, and I did like a lot of the culture of churches and religion. I liked the pomp and circumstance and the earnest nature of it all. It was a nice alternative to the ways of my parents and those about me. So I was not a rebellious stray... Rather when the grown ups took Megan to Perth I felt there was little point in continuing to convince myself that things existed which plainly didn't, as without Megan there was no point in any of it. 

 

I don't care if people are religious or not. After all it's no worse than Harry Potter fans saying they go to Hogwarts or Star Wars fans saying their Jedi. It's just play-acting like children do in the woods to get away from grown up idiocy. But most churches are, as Mary points out, just money hungry these days. It's all about money. And while charitable efforts may come to account for much of this money... The church seems so utilitarian these days... It tries to appeal to everyone, and ends up becoming corrupt and desperate to attract anyone.

 

Religious buildings are fine things (putting aside those ugly modern ones) and gothic architecture is a worthy thing. I saw the chapel at Arundel Castle the other day, and it is a fine affair. It is a great pity that religion is false, as I am sure if it was all true (and for that to be the case there could only be one true faith mind ye) it would make a grand and worthy splendour to behold. Possibly one day we shall create a universe worthy of having Gods. This universe is unworthy of administrators. 

[Mr Saturn64 742]

Churches can be he grandest buildings. Look in "show us your local architecture" where I showed one grand church. Problem is that they're hard to maintain.

As for money, it can be an issue. And location has a lot to do with it as well. Here's a story about a church in Philly, St Bonaventure. (put on sad music). It was founded in the thriving residential neighborhood of Fairhill in 1894. It was the sight of worship then for a long time. Then World War II came. After the war ended, people moved away. They got jobs and raised families in the suburbs. Fairhill then became an impoverished, mostly Latino (not that it matters) neighborhood. Crime and drugs started to rattle the area. As for St Bonaventure, it started going awhile without maintainence. The dominating spire of th church still stood as one of the grandest I have seen (from a distance). Attendance dropped. Naturally, the parish had no money to maintain the massive church. Then came 1993, the darkest year in Philadelphia church architecture history. (same year as the most infamous sports moment here as well). The archdiocese decided to close down most churches north of Girard Avenue. St Bonaventure was one of the first to go. The building has been sitting for 20 years untouched. Slate falls from the spire and roof, and windows remain shattered. One photographer captured pews filled entirely with dust. The spire still stands to this day abandoned (how it survived Hurricane Sandy is past me)

As for the performance of churches, it's like when Pope Francis went back to South America and bashed the bishops and all for not doing what they should; preach the teachings of Jesus.

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

The buildings are just that buildings. the curch is the body of believers people. we who are saved are the church. the buildings are just a place to go and hear the word of God be preached. money does help maintain the buildings and the grounds and help run in our case the buses and the missions we support several churches around the world i do not think that should be the foccus of the church to just get money.

there are many different denominations and not all of them preach the word of God.

[Mr Saturn64 742]

The church should have no need for money unless for charity or building maintenance.

[flatron 83]

But priests, diacons, secretaries, lay employees, bishops, etc need to be paid a wage...

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Of course begging bowls are all that's needed by way of fund raising.  Church edifices no longer edify.  In the middle ages the idea was to point the way to heaven.  We now know that up is empty and there is no palatial zone beyond the "sky".  The best church is an open meadow.  As for hierarchical churches, being a priest is supposed to be a calling not a management career.