Russian expansionism in eastern Europe.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Initial American response.

 

Obama, hands fully tied by his friends and enemies, manages a response anyway.

[Duke87 1,070]

 the only reason you don't see violent mass protests here is because most Americans aren't really the sort to put themselves physically in harms way for any particular cause. 

We don't riot, we sign petitions and write angry blog posts. But one need look no further than the drama that has been going on in our congress and senate over the past several years to see just how divided the US has become.

{video of OWS}

 

The difference is scale. Occupy Wall Street, while it was big enough to get noticed, involved a relatively insignificant percentage of Americans and did not even come close to wresting anyone from power. Nor were the protesters ever directly violent, the violence came when the police took action against them.

 

The episode in Ukraine, meanwhile, involved huge numbers of people, successfully overthrew a government, and caused an international crisis. You will never see anything of that magnitude happen in the US because you will never get enough people to take part.

[Captain 32]

The reason is not the citizens. Case in governments. In their professional ability to overthrow the disagreeable partners and put in their place profitable people. I want to give you an example Russia. Not so long ago on the streets of Moscow there were some strangers unknown for us humans. With posters they held demonstrations. Blamed Putin was called authorities rogues and thieves. But they were very few. As you have been Occupy Wall Street. 

 

Just most people are busy with their families and the real work. They have no time to sit all day long on the Maidan, or whatever other main square. For example, in Ukraine have been the revolution many times. But what in the end? Acting President Yatsenyuk puts oligarchs on places governors and doesn't ask for permission from citizens. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

The Tsar stands firm.

 

The real question here is what are all those Russians doing in the Ukraine?  Not so much as what territory they infest.  The Crimea has been a place of change for millenia and has often been a political football.

 

If it wasn't for the Russian naval bases there, why would they want this troubled land?

[Captain 32]

Answer (Please, TURN ON ENGLISH SUBTITLES):

[Fatherted 129]

Vladimir Putin is best President for Russia. And Ukraine.

 

And all of former USSR. Also, forced president. Not vote. Never vote.

 

So looks like Tsar Putin is in control of several corners of Ukraine. Wonder when modern Lenin will come and bring Socialist revolution #2 to Russia?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

70 years of socialism showed that it is a bust.  Stick with the democracy, it is the best system we've tried so far.

[Fatherted 129]

I personally believe in a perfect situation Socialism is theoretically the best system. However, the people tend not to act in the interests of themselves, and in attempting to control the people they did atrocities to them. Not to mention power to the few leads to suffering among the many.

 

Yes, in theory Socialism is the best system. But in reality democracy has shown to be backwards but ultimately better for the people in the long term. Call me a Neo-Socialist-Realist if you like.

[Bdub01 201]

Seems like the Ukraine is a hot mess right now!!!

[heat33330 26]

Democracy isn't backwards. It's just that most "democracies" are corrupt and have their flaws. 

Unfortunately, Socialism will never work. Some people have no respect or will to work for a better standard of living for everyone. I respect your view and completely understand where your coming from, but for me, true democracy is king.

[LexusInfernus 908]

You people realize that socialism isn't mutually exclusive from democracy right? Its a way of organizing your economy. 

[Jasoncw 11,949]

This doesn't really have anything to do with socialism, and socialism and democracy are compatible with one another. capitalism and socialism are also capable of mixing in a healthy way.

 

The problem is that Putin is consolidating power in a way that he's not supposed to be able to. And he's using that power in ways that are bad for the international community, and not necessarily even good for the Russian people. Maintaining good relationships with countries for geopolitical or economic reasons is part of normal politics. Invading them isn't.

 

I also think that the gay laws are a slightly different issue too. There are places in the US and other countries where homosexuality is illegal to some degree or another. The "western" politicians saying Russia should remove its anti-gay laws are saying the same thing to other anti-gay places as well. This is all part of normal politics. But what's not part of normal politics is the way that Russia treats political opposition from its citizens, and the decreasingly credible elections Russia holds.

 

 

But nothing is going to change. No one is going to go to war with Russia over part of Ukraine. And people within Russia are not going to go to war with Putin either.

[Fatherted 129]

I was just mentioning how Socialism cannot survive under a democracy as the people will always work against themselves (prime example is Swiss immigration laws), but power of the few over the many also cannot work due to selfish human nature. 

 

 

I fully expect the crisis in Ukraine to pass despite Czar Putin's best efforts. He'll have to work harder than that to spark a nuclear war like he so dearly wants, apparantly.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Back to our muttons please.

 

More posturing by the Kiev government, but then there's the realpolitik of an occupied Crimea.

[Jasoncw 11,949]

I was just mentioning how Socialism cannot survive under a democracy as the people will always work against themselves (prime example is Swiss immigration laws), but power of the few over the many also cannot work due to selfish human nature. 

 

The hypocrisy of the US is hilarious. They criticize the RF's anti-gay laws then proceed to only allow gay marriage in six states. For reference, it is legal to screw an (unconsenting) horse in...drum roll please...23 states.

 

Welcome to the USA.

 

I fully expect the crisis in Ukraine to pass despite Czar Putin's best efforts. He'll have to work harder than that to spark a nuclear war like he so dearly wants, apparantly.

 

The "they" who are criticizing russia's anti-gay laws are the same "they" that are criticizing those laws within the US and elsewhere around the world. And in the US you have the right to be pro or anti gay, and the right to vote in legitimate elections. As long as you're not making threats of violence you can pretty much do whatever you want. You don't get thrown in prison for wanting laws changed or going against obama.

 

If the US had some right wing president right now, the message would be "we respect that russia is protecting the religious rights of its citizens, and protecting the traditional values which are the building blocks of moral society" and then the US would still be hypocritical because the majority of americans are in favor of gay rights.

[Captain 32]

This is not a criticism. This is a consequence of the unwillingness to accept another point of view. We're seen on TV, we have the BBC and CNN, and we are feeling great.

 

What is now the Crimea has collected hundreds of thousands of people in order to protect them, to be paid salaries and pensions that they have clear future independent of Ukraine attitudes — it does not matter really. The main thing that Putin tsar. He wants a nuclear war. All fear! Especially gays!

 

Lithuania has already confirmed the video where the team gave the snipers shooting into the crowd on Maidan. 

 

Germany is on the side of Russia. More and more politicians in Europe are beginning to understand what's what. U.S. does not perceive one seriously in the international arena. Syria has already shown it.

 

But this is not available on the BBC and CNN as well as information on U.S. websites.

 

I'm wondering what will result of this conflict. Obviously Russia today is not so weak as in 1991. Therefore, the point of view Russia sooner or later hear everything - not only closest partners. 

 

The only thing that I would like to wish all of us today - not to succumb to provocations and be in peace with each other. I believe that we have with the Americans and Europeans much more in common than Putin and Obama.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

If self-determinism were the rule in the international scene there would be thousands more of nationalities.  Every little group wants its own land on which to stand.  Such fragmentation would lead to a repeat of the middle ages.

[Captain 32]

Like I said, Ukrainian and Russian brothers for the blood. Episode recorded in the military section, where Russian troops have invaded. Attention, the occupation (Russian orchestra plays, Ukrainian soldiers dancing):

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

We'll never know the pravda of all this.

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

I have to agree with Captain here that the western media are only telling one side of the story. Lest we forget Ukraine is being run by an interim government and the previous government was removed in a coup. Worst still this interim government has strong affiliations with Ukraine Nationalists; some of whom are neo-Nazis. So the US and Europe recognizes the unelected government of Ukraine as the legitimate rulers of Ukraine, yet does not recognize the Crimea's Parliament's referendum- where the Crimea Parliament has not been forcibly ousted. And if the people of Crimea vote with a strong majority for closer ties with Russia, then apparently their voice is null and void.

 

I'm worried about the US government's belligerent attitude towards Russia plus the distortion or omission of certain facts just to paint Russia as the bad guy. That's what happened with Iraq 2003 and of course with Syria last year- remember those Youtube videos which were used as "compelling" evidence that Assad's government had ordered those chemical attacks. Apparently the US and UK governments plus the two countries respective media outlets have learned from the mistakes of Iraq, and apparently such warmongering will not happen again. Well it did happen again: Syria, Libya and now Ukraine.

 

I mean why is the US so eager to provoke Russia? Why is NATO still antagonizing Russia by continuing to place anti-missile systems across Eastern Europe? Why is the Cold War policy of rendering ineffective Russia's ICBMs still ongoing?

[Odainsaker 2,137]

And yet, the elected Ukrainian parliament is also still there, and it was ultimately they, not the protesters, who removed the president for ordering security forces to crush the protests with deadly force.

Similarly, the Ukrainian government in Crimea was also ousted under pressure from incited protestors, many of them including Russian ultranationalists, and all now justified by the half-truths of Russian state-controlled media.

All this would ordinarily be for Ukraine to sort out, except Putin has decided to invade with unmarked troops and local militia paramilitaries under the pretext of protecting Russian nationals and compatriots, and is now moving towards outright annexation. "Your illegitimate extremist usurpers and media liars versus our illegitimate extremist usurpers and media liars" is just falling for the same Big Power games. Afterall, what makes the newly installed government in Crimea anymore legitimate than the provisional one in Kiev? Perhaps more tricky is the question of what happens to the 40% of the Crimean population that is not ethnically Russian and is not disposed to becoming part of Russia? Expulsion..."disposal"...or can they break off their own little bits of Crimea next and annex themselves back into Ukraine? I suspect the newly planted minefields and the masked paramilitaries with unknown oversight will soon fix that.

But, "America and Iraq and Bush and the CIA all did so-and-so, therefore Russian can do such-and-such,"...are all nonsensical circular arguments. If they are justifications for the Russian action, then you must automatically justify the American action, and if the American adventures are not justified, then neither can be the Russian invasion.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

The "one world super power" has got a black eye and a bloody nose.  The powers-that-be in the U.S., including those drum beating war hawks are about to discover that they are not and cannot be the world police.  Perhaps Syria is one of the last gasps of this failing polity, and I certainly hope so.  The military/industrial machine is long overdue for a breakdown of serious proportions. 

 

Scratch most men on the street in America and you'll find a pacifistic isolationist.  Echoes of  "Hell no, we won't go" are still there, especially after the recent adventures in the middle east and Afghanistan.  Too many case of shell-shock (PTSD) are still around and the military is trying to brush all this under the carpet.  It is time to replace the words of "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" with the original Scottish lament "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye".

 

War is evil.

[Fatherted 129]

War is evil, but in the words of 37 Days to War "Do you not believe that international law should mean SOMETHING? That it should have some CONSEQUENCES, should that law be broken?" Furthermore, should we stand back and let good 'ol Assad and luvvly lil' Kim do mass slaughter and human rights violations for their power?

Crimea should be given a vote: Join Russia, rejoin Ukraine, or become independent. Or who knows where Putin will go next?

Belarus, for having the last dictatorial government in Europe and therefore being "illegitimate and unelected"? Kyrgyzstan for being unable to control organised crime?

We need to crack down on Putin and free Crimea. Preferably diplomatically.

[Captain 32]

Friends, I would really like to say that the war will not be exact. But the last few days in social networks and on YouTube there are more videos that displays Russian military equipment. Her carry trains in the columns of. At the landfill are increasingly are heard military exercises.

The same data are obtained from Ukraine and even from Poland.

 

In Russia, I still can explain this high activity of the new Defence Minister Shoigu, who had previously contained one of the world's best rescue service MOE. But the last straw was today seen on the roads in my city covers tanks, military vehicles and armored cars. 

 

It's just my subjective observations. And maybe it's a simple game with muscles.Or at all fulfillment the standard instructions for old military norms.

[Pioneer 140]

[Captain 32]

Steven Seagal about U.S. propaganda

Ukraine. Donetsk. A new area of tension. As inhabitants of Crimea residents of Donetsk wants to join Russia. The crowd shows the flags of Russia and shouts slogans "Fascism will not pass"

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Well, it is pretty usual for tin-pot despots to arise in Europe.  Putin is not the first in Russia by a long shot.  There is no doubt that Stalin wanted all of Europe, then the world if he could get it.  Funny, Hitler had the same goals.  Echoes of the Comintern. 

 

What say we have a five year plan on the Kremlin?  By the end of that time there should be nothing left but a heap of brick dust.

[Captain 32]

Nobody pretends to Europe. Russian people are afraid of Russian national cleansing, violation of their rights to freedom and life. Crimea and eastern Ukraine were Russian territories, so there are so many Russian people. And the Russian people have always wanted to live in Russiaif it were not 1991. Europe is afraid of separatist sentiment. China fears this. In the U.S., many states have also voiced their desire to secede from the United States. That is why no one can support the Crimea. Otherwise, it will set a precedent.

 

Russia as a country does not make sense to expand the political boundaries. Today, in price only money. And for the sake of economic benefits is much more efficient to extend the Customs Union with the national currency ruble. 

 

If Putin would have been a dictator, he is now set to world military ultimatum - either Ukraine in a Customs Union with the Crimea and other areas, and it recognizes the United States and the EU or Russia invades and forcibly returns Yanukovych. But he chose the path where the inhabitants of the Crimea back wages and pensions, establish higher Russian salaries, will carry water and electricity. And Crimea - is subsidized region. Ie to sustain life, he takes money from the federal budget. What's the sense for Russia?

[Captain 32]

The American Who Dared Make Putin’s Case (Stephen Cohen)

 

http://www.newsweek.com/american-who-dared-make-putins-case-231388

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

There are lots of dictators in the world, but few are armed with nuclear weapons.  The Tsar manipulated a lot of people to get to his present position, and I expect he thinks to stay there.  Expansionist policy is a good distraction for the masses.