Indonesian-Australian Relations Downgrading

[astronelson 339]

Indonesia has begun downgrading its relations with Australia, after it was revealed that Australia had spied on President Yudhoyono in 2009.

 

More details here.

 

Can't say Indonesia's historically been my favourite country, especially regarding what happened with them and Timor Leste between 1975 and 2002.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Oh gee, that's so important.  I thought relations were strained anyway because of the immigration problem.

[krbe 193]

Well, Indonesia and Australia have cooperated on keeping Australia white. Now that job falls to Australia alone, again.

 

However despicable a past occupation might have been, I fail to see how that can justify present surveillance. Or should Ms Merkel rather have kept quiet because of her predecessors?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The whole spying thing is some sort of distraction.  The question is, what are the "world leaders" up to behind this smoke screen.  Espionage carries on business as usual.  A few newer tools is no reason for all this outrage.

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

A bit of 'humour' for the situation...

[astronelson 339]

Relations remain tense, with public outrage in Indonesia and some (peaceful) protests.

 

Military exercises between the two countries have been cancelled.

 

Well, Indonesia and Australia have cooperated on keeping Australia white. Now that job falls to Australia alone, again.

 

However despicable a past occupation might have been, I fail to see how that can justify present surveillance. Or should Ms Merkel rather have kept quiet because of her predecessors?

 

I didn't say it justified surveillance, I gave it as a reason for Indonesia not being one of my favourite countries.

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

I think this lack of apology has got to do with the "well I didn't do it" mentality. Tony Abbott doesn't want to apologise for something a Labor Government did, in the same way John Howard didn't want to apologise for the 'stolen generation', because it was a policy of a long gone government.

[The Pennsylvania Turnpike 252]

Spying on another country is wrong anyway. I don't live near these two countries but i knew that these countries had trouble in the past and i hope they can patch things up soon. In my opinion, Australia is in the wrong here.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Spying on another country is wrong anyway. I don't live near these two countries but i knew that these countries had trouble in the past and i hope they can patch things up soon. In my opinion, Australia is in the wrong here.

No, getting caught is the problem.  Everyone spies on everyone else anyway.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Spying is logical. Indonesia should stop whingeing

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

Spying is logical. Indonesia should stop whingeing

But would you like it if I tapped your phone not only at your workplace, but also your home life?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Public figures are always targets.  It is up to them to take protective measures.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Rofl, i wouldn't care. I've nowt to hide. I am not a crook so why should i care what big bro knows about me. Besides as this is national not private and most logically mutual too... Besides when ypu become a polly you shouldnt be doing anything bad. Ppl in that position are in public spotlight thus should set an example. If i was pm i would ensure i was clean in my habits

[Duke87 1,070]

There has been not a single peep about this in the US. I'm sure a lot of us still think we're the only developed country that spies on other countries.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The American press works hard to keep the people complacent and ignorant.  Follow the money for the root of this.

[Odainsaker 2,133]

Well, it was reported on CNN's website.  Of course, it wasn't treated as top international news and is now buried under other articles.

 

Amusingly, this all reminds me of the funny 2002 incident involving the United States bugging the People's Republic of China's presidential plane.  Seeking an upgrade from the hastily retrofitted aircraft temporarily requisitioned from its own national airlines, China had just purchased a Boeing 767 from Delta Air Lines and sought to have it interiors customized with suitably presidential accommodations by a private contractor in San Antonio, Texas.  San Antonio has a well-established industry for aircraft maintenance and interior construction, and the newly redesigned Chinese "Air Force One" for President Jiang Zemin was to be fitted with enough palatial luxuries to make then-President Bush's own Air Force One seem third class.  Chinese military officers would guard the aircraft while it underwent outfitting at San Antonio International Airport.

 

Or course, having the Chinese version of Air Force One undergoing interior reconstruction inside the U.S. was too rich an opportunity for American intelligence agencies.  When the Chinese president's new plane was finally received in China for performance trials, it was found to be loaded with foreign eavesdropping devices.  Bugging devices were reportedly found in the headboard above the Chinese president's bed and even in his toilet.  As the scandal broke, San Antonio newspapers offered surreal cloak-and-dagger tales of how a local private contractor found itself cooperating with the NSA and how its entire construction staff was infiltrated by and replaced with undercover secret agents.  I seem to recall reading that the unknowing staff were all sent off on unexpected vacations and told not to ask questions.  Local business leaders in San Antonio and Seattle were aghast.

 

Naturally, President Jiang Zemin was furious, and the import officials and the security detail who were supposedly guarding the plane in San Antonio were purged for corruption and negligence.  However, the diplomatic fallout was strangely not as vociferous as might be expected, perhaps because China now had in its possession a full planeload of secret American surveillance technology ready to be analyzed and reverse-engineered.  While it was officially reported that the satellite-controlled devices were detected after they emitted peculiar electrical noises during flight testing, it was later suggested that the Chinese had actually learned about the devices from an arrested Chinese double-agent who had penetrated the FBI and compromised an agent there in a sex scandal.  Reflecting the opaque and cutthroat nature of Chinese leadership politics, there are even false-flag rumors within China that it might have actually been the Americans who ultimately informed the Chinese about the bugs spotted during construction, and that the bugs may originally have been planted by Jiang's own political rivals conspiring in Beijing.

 

I still wonder what intelligence might have been gleaned from Jiang Zemin's aerial toilet.

[AkemiAzula 280]

I think bugging a toilet is going a little too far... When you could just bug his mobile phone.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Mobile phones are not good subjects for hacking.  Too easily discarded.  Should probably be replaced twice a day.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Wasnt it you who said radio was easier to tap than wire lol anyway i dunno what to make of indonesia. I aint never been there. My friend visited bali island. Closest ive been is changi airport at singapire is

[ausa07 66]

I'll just put in my two cents here.  I personally don't find it surprising nowadays if a first world country spies on anyone.  I'd be more surprised if a first world country wasn't spying on anyone.  Do I think Indonesia is overreacting?  Not necessarily.  I think they have a right to be upset (though the few that were burning the Australian flag was a bit much).   I also personally think there are a handful of Australians that look down on or don't care about Indonesia because they are predominately a non-white country.  It makes me wonder if Abbott himself is in this mentality and if he would give a "white ally" the same treatment.
 

I think this lack of apology has got to do with the "well I didn't do it" mentality. Tony Abbott doesn't want to apologise for something a Labor Government did, in the same way John Howard didn't want to apologise for the 'stolen generation', because it was a policy of a long gone government.

 

It doesn't matter if he did or didn't do it.  It's still his responsibility as the PM--the face of Australia to apologise and better the situation.  Since he refuses to apologise, the situation only gets worse and gives Australia (and mainly himself) a bad look on the international stage.

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

 

I think this lack of apology has got to do with the "well I didn't do it" mentality. Tony Abbott doesn't want to apologise for something a Labor Government did, in the same way John Howard didn't want to apologise for the 'stolen generation', because it was a policy of a long gone government.

 

It doesn't matter if he did or didn't do it.  It's still his responsibility as the PM--the face of Australia to apologise and better the situation.  Since he refuses to apologise, the situation only gets worse and gives Australia (and mainly himself) a bad look on the international stage.

Oh, I agree completely. However I think that he is thinking in a personal capacity of which he is not responsible for. Instead he needs to uphold the office he has voluntarily taken and make the best actions from that office, not the person.

[ausa07 66]

 

 

I think this lack of apology has got to do with the "well I didn't do it" mentality. Tony Abbott doesn't want to apologise for something a Labor Government did, in the same way John Howard didn't want to apologise for the 'stolen generation', because it was a policy of a long gone government.

 

It doesn't matter if he did or didn't do it.  It's still his responsibility as the PM--the face of Australia to apologise and better the situation.  Since he refuses to apologise, the situation only gets worse and gives Australia (and mainly himself) a bad look on the international stage.

Oh, I agree completely. However I think that he is thinking in a personal capacity of which he is not responsible for. Instead he needs to uphold the office he has voluntarily taken and make the best actions from that office, not the person.

 

 

Don't worry, I knew you weren't defending Abbott 

But yes, he does need to make better decisions for the interest of the country (and its allies) instead of upholding some of his stubborn personal beliefs.

[AkemiAzula 280]

If I was the Pm I wouldn't apologise. Spying is the norm these days. I'm sure President Yudoyono spies. 

 

I tend to look down upon that country not cos they're 'not white' but because their overcrowded and polluted and third world. I think Indonesia has a long road till it attains civilized status. But I am indifferent to the nation.

[derwilly 17]

Can't say Indonesia's historically been my favourite country, especially regarding what happened with them and Timor Leste between 1975 and 2002.

 

I didn't say it justified surveillance, I gave it as a reason for Indonesia not being one of my favourite countries.

 

Poor you. And what are your favorite countries, then?

 

Pretty much every country has dark episodes. Yours probably too.

[MatlockMan 370]

Funny thing about this situation is... its an election year in Indonesia. SookSook Bambang Youtolduswedidn'tknowso... is doing this to score points in his polls.

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

Funny thing about this situation is... its an election year in Indonesia. SookSook Bambang Youtolduswedidn'tknowso... is doing this to score points in his polls.

Yeah, politicians will attack anyone to make themselves look less bad.

[ausa07 66]

If I was the Pm I wouldn't apologise. Spying is the norm these days. I'm sure President Yudoyono spies. 

 

I tend to look down upon that country not cos they're 'not white' but because their overcrowded and polluted and third world. I think Indonesia has a long road till it attains civilized status. But I am indifferent to the nation.

 

Yes, spying may be common these days but does it justify the action?  Let's think of the philosophy of the claim that spying justified because it's the norm. For example, say that a lot of people you know are cheating on their partner.  Then one day you began to cheat on your partner as well.  When you get caught, would you not apologise and instead tell your partner that everyone is doing it therefore you are not in the wrong??  Cheating on someone partner is not considered socially acceptable just as spying on an ally is not considered socially acceptable on the international stage.

Secondly, Indonesia has limited surveillance technology and therefore it is doubtful that his government is bugging anyone's phone.  As to the question if Indonesia is spying in any shape or form?  Who knows.  But until a given circumstance proves them guilty, I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt.  The fact is that Australia was caught spying, and therefore Abbott should be the bigger person and apologise on behalf of the country.

Lastly, I think it's a bit harsh to say you "look down" upon a country based on their standard of living.  Looking down upon people generally implies they are worthless.  You have to remember that Indonesia has a large wealth divide and is not necessarily a poor country.  Unemployment and poverty have declined in recent years and the country has seen a steady 4-6% economic growth.   Not to mention they're part of the G20.

 

[AkemiAzula 280]

 

If I was the Pm I wouldn't apologise. Spying is the norm these days. I'm sure President Yudoyono spies. 

 

I tend to look down upon that country not cos they're 'not white' but because their overcrowded and polluted and third world. I think Indonesia has a long road till it attains civilized status. But I am indifferent to the nation.

 

Yes, spying may be common these days but does it justify the action?  Let's think of the philosophy of the claim that spying justified because it's the norm. For example, say that a lot of people you know are cheating on their partner.  Then one day you began to cheat on your partner as well.  When you get caught, would you not apologise and instead tell your partner that everyone is doing it therefore you are not in the wrong??  Cheating on someone partner is not considered socially acceptable just as spying on an ally is not considered socially acceptable on the international stage.

Secondly, Indonesia has limited surveillance technology and therefore it is doubtful that his government is bugging anyone's phone.  As to the question if Indonesia is spying in any shape or form?  Who knows.  But until a given circumstance proves them guilty, I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt.  The fact is that Australia was caught spying, and therefore Abbott should be the bigger person and apologise on behalf of the country.

Lastly, I think it's a bit harsh to say you "look down" upon a country based on their standard of living.  Looking down upon people generally implies they are worthless.  You have to remember that Indonesia has large wealth divide and is not necessarily a poor country.  Unemployment and poverty have declined in recent years and the country has seen a steady 4-6% economic growth.   Not to mention they're part of the G20.

 

 

Looking down upon implies looking down upon from a relative height. Worthless? No. But Indonesia is no Australia. Given a choice of living in one or the other I'd pick Australia. Apologising for something everybody does seems illogical. The partner analogy doesn't make sense because they are probably 'cheating on' us as well, so it'd be like apologising to a bad person for being bad.

 

My opinion on spying is it is necessary, however good or bad it may be for various people concerned. Whereas cheating on a partner isn't necessary, it's a temptation weak people suffer from. Spying is an issues of national security, not a secret guilty indulgence

[ausa07 66]

 

 

If I was the Pm I wouldn't apologise. Spying is the norm these days. I'm sure President Yudoyono spies. 

 

I tend to look down upon that country not cos they're 'not white' but because their overcrowded and polluted and third world. I think Indonesia has a long road till it attains civilized status. But I am indifferent to the nation.

 

Yes, spying may be common these days but does it justify the action?  Let's think of the philosophy of the claim that spying justified because it's the norm. For example, say that a lot of people you know are cheating on their partner.  Then one day you began to cheat on your partner as well.  When you get caught, would you not apologise and instead tell your partner that everyone is doing it therefore you are not in the wrong??  Cheating on someone partner is not considered socially acceptable just as spying on an ally is not considered socially acceptable on the international stage.

Secondly, Indonesia has limited surveillance technology and therefore it is doubtful that his government is bugging anyone's phone.  As to the question if Indonesia is spying in any shape or form?  Who knows.  But until a given circumstance proves them guilty, I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt.  The fact is that Australia was caught spying, and therefore Abbott should be the bigger person and apologise on behalf of the country.

Lastly, I think it's a bit harsh to say you "look down" upon a country based on their standard of living.  Looking down upon people generally implies they are worthless.  You have to remember that Indonesia has large wealth divide and is not necessarily a poor country.  Unemployment and poverty have declined in recent years and the country has seen a steady 4-6% economic growth.   Not to mention they're part of the G20.

 

 

Looking down upon implies looking down upon from a relative height. Worthless? No. But Indonesia is no Australia. Given a choice of living in one or the other I'd pick Australia. Apologising for something everybody does seems illogical. The partner analogy doesn't make sense because they are probably 'cheating on' us as well, so it'd be like apologising to a bad person for being bad.

 

My opinion on spying is it is necessary, however good or bad it may be for various people concerned. Whereas cheating on a partner isn't necessary, it's a temptation weak people suffer from. Spying is an issues of national security, not a secret guilty indulgence

 

 

Looking down on someone is a derogatory term.  Perhaps you should tell a member of this site who is from Indonesia that you look down upon them and see if they take it as offensive or not.  And like I said I'm giving Indonesia the benefit of the doubt.  Now even if you did something bad to someone who also did something bad that doesn't make it right.  Hence the saying two wrongs don't make a right.  Just as brothers and sisters wrong each other, we are taught by our parents to apologise to one another despite both doing harm.

 

Spying is could be argued as a guilty indulgence of a government wanting to have full control of a situation and know more than they need to know.  I don't see spying as a necessity but rather a choice, just as any decision we make in life is a choice.  Coming from an Australian, I don't see my country falling apart at the seams had we not spied on Indonesia.

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

I'm just going to use the old adage here, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar". I'm sure if we just asked Indonesia for that information, they'd hand it over.