UK leaving the EU?

[LexusInfernus 908]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20448450

As some of you probably have heard, the UK wants to renegotiate the terms on which it is part of the EU and hold a referendum on whether or not they want to remain part of Europe.

This could potentially lead to another crisis within the EU as the UK is quite a large economy and important member of the EU and them leaving the EU could potentially have catastrophic consequences for the EU, not to mention the UK. At the other hand, the UK is quite a worthless member of the EU in many aspects, opting out of almost everything and generally acting like an obstacle for everyone else, so it might be nice if they finally sod off and leave Europe to integrate at a faster pace. It would also remove the largest proponent of the neo-liberal capitalist economic model, potentially making way for a more social Europe.

Anyways, what do the other Simtropolis members think of this?

[Ocram's Razr 963]

This is interesting. No matter whether the UK remains in the EU or not, I don't believe that it should adopt the Euro. England was the first industrial-capitalist economy and has more in common with the USA than, say, France.

--Ocram

[Nique 291]

The Netherlands is also alluding to leave the EU. They're talking about a possible referendum at the moment.

[Sandis_van_Great 346]

I hope UK leaves it and otthers fallow it, EU havent done anything good. When my country joined EU we hade to close down several factories all over our country and now we almost whent bancrupt and EU is a part to blame it for. Now they are literrary pushing us Euro which i really really really hate.

Anyways Euro is as unstable as the whole EU.

[jarnomiedema 52]

Neither the UK nor the Netherlands are leaving the EU. Mr. Cameron is playing the rabid anti-EU card in the hopes of picking up some more votes in the upcoming election. Currently he doesn't have the necessary majority in parliament to call for the referendum, so he's hoping for an election win to be able to get the referendum through. But even then, polls are showing that the British people are split pretty much 50/50 on the issue.

The Netherlands (where I'm from) has its own radical right wing nutjob calling for a referendum, but that's also not going to happen. While we might grumble and gripe about the EU and the Euro (and there definitely need to be changes), we won't leave the EU anytime soon. Also, dzekins, the EU has done plenty of good: I doubt those factories closing had anything to do with joining the EU. Most likely it would've happened anyway. Besides, I believe you're forgetting the tremendous amounts of subsidies that are transferred from all over the EU to other, less developed parts of the EU in order to realize all sorts of improvements.

Yes, the Euro is in trouble and yes, things need to change, but the only way we can accomplish that is by electing the right people, keep voting and keep demanding that politicians are held accountable for their actions and their decisions.

[Evillions 552]

I hope UK leaves it and otthers fallow it, EU havent done anything good. When my country joined EU we hade to close down several factories all over our country and now we almost whent bancrupt and EU is a part to blame it for. Now they are literrary pushing us Euro which i really really really hate.

Anyways Euro is as unstable as the whole EU.

The factory closures are mostly due to globalization. Its the same exact thing in the USA, most corporations will expand internationally and often shift operations oversees to reduce costs. As for the European Union, I believe it has done some good to the European economy as a whole. Sure sectionalism will rise, but it would help countries such as Greece recover from its debt crisis. If the Euro is adopted by the UK, it could potentially raise its worth, but obviously as expensive as the Pound.

[libellibicus 396]

We are not strictly an EU member state anyway, although we are party to a lot of Euro trade agreements. Personally I don't want full membership at all, and I'm quite happy to maintain the status quo. I'd rather be poorer and British than richer and European.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

OK, now I am an outside observer in all this, so here is my two cents:

• Cameron is trying to get re-elected with a majority, no doubt. I am sure he would like to dump Nick Clegg.
  
• Britain is hardly a member of the EU as long as it holds out on the Euro.
  
• The British economy is more tied to North America than to Europe.
  
• The EU is still too parochial in the outlooks of its members. They must either become one polyglot country or become a mere loose union of allies.
  
• A currency union is maybe a good thing, but it hasn't proven to be so as yet.
  
• The European Parliament needs more clout and the individual states should give this to them. It means giving up some sovereignty. Unlikely.
  
• As long as national flags take precedent over the European Union flag, it really is just a debating society.
  

[libellibicus 396]

David Cameron is definitely using this political point as a way of securing votes at the next General Election. He knows that we all want a Referendum, so he views this as a safe-bet way of getting rid of Nick Clegg and his wishy-washy Liberals. David Cameron himself is pro-Europe. This alone makes him a prat, IMHO

[The_City_Builder 299]

While not directly affected myself, I do think it would be weird for a country that is closer to mainland Europe then where I am to be completely unaffiliated with the EU.

Also, what would become of Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK? How would it impact the economy of the Republic of Ireland?

Personally, this is a bit silly, because the UK wouldn't properly function if it were to be terminated from the EU, and either way, other countries would be drastically affected by the consequences of the UK leaving the EU.

I don't follow the UK's politics as much as I used too, but I do have to say that I do like David Cameron, and I somewhat favour his views on a matter of things. I'm unsure if this is the right move for him to make though.

[libellibicus 396]

Switzerland is not an EU member, and seems to do alright for itself. The EU is slowly crumbling, and soon I envision many Rats deserting the sinking ship. I can see certain plus points for EU membership if you live on mainland Europe...the open border policy has certainly helped with trading, but the idea of a pan-European state freaks me out. We (the UK) have decent relations with the majority of Member States, and if our trade agreements were to fail as a result of our non-membership, everybody would dip out, not just the UK. We also have a slightly different relationship with the RoI due to our shared history, and I reckon that would always remain the case.

[LexusInfernus 908]

I hope UK leaves it and otthers fallow it, EU havent done anything good. When my country joined EU we hade to close down several factories all over our country and now we almost whent bancrupt and EU is a part to blame it for. Now they are literrary pushing us Euro which i really really really hate.

Anyways Euro is as unstable as the whole EU.

I assume you are from an Eastern European countries. Lots of state owned factories had to be sold (and got subsequently closed) as part of the internal market and free market regulations set by the EU. You might not like that the EU pushed for this, but trust me, those factories would have been closed sooner or later anyways. State owned factories tend to be ineffective to the point that they can only exist when states massively subsidize them. Essentially, you would be paying taxes just so a factory would remain open. Not really something taxpayer money should be spend on.

@A Nonny Moose almost half of the UK trade goes towards mainland Europe. Loosing a lot of that trade because sudden tariff barriers and such would definitely be a blow. Furthermore, in order to trade with the EU, you still have to meet the EU quality standards. As a member of the EU, the UK can help decide what those quality standards are. If they step out, those quality standards will be imposed on them and they will have no voice in it at all.

And while it is true that Switzerland and Norway are doing okay, they hardly play a role of any significance in the world. Is that what the UK wants to be known for? Being as insignificant and unimportant as Norway and Switzerland on the world stage, only good for companies and rich people to hide their money?

[Meg 368]

I have a friend in England who thinks that the distance between England and France is huge but the distance between England and the US is small. She thinks England should become the 51st state. Difficult to tell if she is serious but, for the most part, I believe she is.

I told her she would have to give up her healthcare and learn to carry a gun. She said maybe she should rethink this.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Lol, really Meg? At good days you can even see the French coast if youre standing at the cliffs around Dover

[Sandis_van_Great 346]

I hope UK leaves it and otthers fallow it, EU havent done anything good. When my country joined EU we hade to close down several factories all over our country and now we almost whent bancrupt and EU is a part to blame it for. Now they are literrary pushing us Euro which i really really really hate.

Anyways Euro is as unstable as the whole EU.

I assume you are from an Eastern European countries. Lots of state owned factories had to be sold (and got subsequently closed) as part of the internal market and free market regulations set by the EU. You might not like that the EU pushed for this, but trust me, those factories would have been closed sooner or later anyways. State owned factories tend to be ineffective to the point that they can only exist when states massively subsidize them. Essentially, you would be paying taxes just so a factory would remain open. Not really something taxpayer money should be spend on.

@A Nonny Moose almost half of the UK trade goes towards mainland Europe. Loosing a lot of that trade because sudden tariff barriers and such would definitely be a blow. Furthermore, in order to trade with the EU, you still have to meet the EU quality standards. As a member of the EU, the UK can help decide what those quality standards are. If they step out, those quality standards will be imposed on them and they will have no voice in it at all.

And while it is true that Switzerland and Norway are doing okay, they hardly play a role of any significance in the world. Is that what the UK wants to be known for? Being as insignificant and unimportant as Norway and Switzerland on the world stage, only good for companies and rich people to hide their money?

No im from the nother europa.

And trust me , they wouldnt have been closed, what EU perfectly did was made my country into consumer rather than producer so the richer eu countrys can earn more. EU dosnt really treat all of its members equally , especially the eastern part. YOu know how much of the trashy export goes to Eastern part just becouse EU dont really care about that side?

Offcors we did get some nice things from EU also, like money to renovate schools and such, but thats just to shut up the society. Whenever sombody from EU comes to visit and see how the situation after crisis is going, they go totally dumb with understanding the real situation thats goin on.

And in the all end, EU is trying to make the bubble alot more bigger, and it will break pritty soon, and the bigger the bubble gets the more bigger the fall will be. Look at Norway, when they come here to get their nobel prize , all they did was talk about getting Norway into EU, just becouse of its money.

Sorry, but i personally dont see anything good with EU

[Meg 368]

Lol, really Meg? At good days you can even see the French coast if youre standing at the cliffs around Dover

Really. and she lives on the Isle of Wight. Somehow, in her mind, she doesn't live in Europe. I asked her where she does live. She replied "East America".

and she calls me mad.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Sorry, but i personally dont see anything good with EU

That is because you, like most European citizens, have no clue what the EU actually does, and how much you benefit from being a part of it.

What country are you from then?

[Sandis_van_Great 346]

Sorry, but i personally dont see anything good with EU

That is because you, like most European citizens, have no clue what the EU actually does, and how much you benefit from being a part of it.

What country are you from then?

Im from Latvia.

Okey than explain me, what good does it do?

[hym 358]

Discuss the issues, not each other.

[nathanthemayor 1,261]

Hmmm this is interesting. I would imagine Greece or Spain would wanting to leave, but Britain leaving the EU is shocking to me....

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Well, the EU is smaller than the USA, Canada, and Russia in landmass, if I am not mistaken. One problem standing in the way of success of the EU is nationalism and different economic models historically favored by various European nations. I would not be surprised if the EU lasts for a shorter amount of time than the USSR did even though the USSR was far larger in area.

--Ocram

[Duke87 1,070]

Hmmm this is interesting. I would imagine Greece or Spain would wanting to leave, but Britain leaving the EU is shocking to me....

Considering they've been one of the most reluctant participants all along, it really isn't surprising. Brits have a very strong national pride (hey, spend a couple centuries practically ruling the world and your country will, too) and aren't all too crazy about the idea of being part of a larger organization. In many ways the UK has more in common with the US and Canada than it does with the rest of Europe.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Im from Latvia.

Okey than explain me, what good does it do?

Dude, thats Eastern Europe. Former Soviet controlled space. Yes, a lot of factories got closed, either because they are not up to the safety and health standards the EU sets for its member states (oh how terrible, the EU wants to protect your health by not having you live next to a polluting factory) or because they were state controlled which does not fit with the EU free market, which means that they needed to be privatized. And a lot of former Soviet factories were so horribly inefficient and cost ineffective that they simply could not survive on the free market without massive state subsidies. Or to put it this way, if those factories were privately owned and conformed to all safety and health standards, than the EU has no power over them. The EU cannot tell businesses to just close down without a very good legal reason. Wanting to change the Latvian economy from a production economy towards a consumer economy is not a legal reason at all.

So, what does the EU do for you and your country? Well for starters, on your own Latvia is an insignificant little place, politically unimportant, economically not a super power. Compared to Russia, China, the US and growing global players like Brazil and India, Latvia plays no role of any significance in the world. However, the EU does, because the EU is pretty much every European country put into one political union. Together Europe is much stronger than any of the individual member states could ever be, together Europe can form an effective counter weight against all the other world powers. And as part of the EU, Latvia has a voice in the decision making process, which means it can protect its interests far more effectively than it could ever hope to do on its own. Which seems rather useful when you're geographically so close to Russia.

Furthermore, becoming part of the EU has given Latvia business access to one of the largest markets in the world, with no import barriers. Quite useful for anyone who wants to start a business in Latvia, they can operate freely anywhere in Europe. Then there is of course the fact that Latvia is a net. receiver, meaning they get more money from the EU than what they pay. Free money to help build up the economy and what not. Oh, as for the Euro, well right now I agree, its a bit unstable. But, it also saves people money, especially if they go on holidays or do business with other European countries. And if Brussels pulls through and implements the necessary regulations to make the Euro stable again, all Euro members will benefit from it in the long run.

The EU also sets standards for products in order to ensure public health and safety, avoid the exploitation of workers, ensures a minimum of social security, protects civil rights and freedoms within its member states, allows European citizens to travel, study, live and work anywhere within the EU without any kind of restrictions. And it promotes local cultures and diversity rather than pushing for a homogeneous pan-European culture.

Is the EU perfect? No, it can do better in some areas. It could be more democratic, although this is in part caused by the fact that European elections have rather low voter turnout ratings. More people should vote rather than complain that Europe is so stupid. Furthermore, its possible to start citizen initiatives and send complaints to the Commission to which they must respond. But yeah, if no one makes use of this....

Next year the European Parliament holds elections again, so I would suggest you go out and vote.

Well, the EU is smaller than the USA, Canada, and Russia in landmass, if I am not mistaken. One problem standing in the way of success of the EU is nationalism and different economic models historically favored by various European nations. I would not be surprised if the EU lasts for a shorter amount of time than the USSR did even though the USSR was far larger in area.

--Ocram

Meh, the economic models are mostly the same within Europe. Free market capitalism, where states still can put the accent on what they find more important, focus on employment or focus on economic growth. As for nationalism, I agree, it is beginning to become a bit of a problem in some European countries, especially the ones affected heavily by the crisis. But these Nationalists often fail to mention is the crisis they are in is for a large part caused not by Brussels but by themselves. Stepping out of the EU will not only not solve any of their problems, it will also deny them further access to all forms of support and help that the EU can give to help them solve their problems.

Another terribly flawed argument that Nationalists tend to use is that they don't like giving Brussels all the sovereignty. They mistakenly assume that in today's world, a country like Greece or the Netherlands would have any real sovereignty if they stepped out of the EU. All European nations heavily rely on NATO in case of a war, most countries would not hold for more than a week in case of a full scale invasion, and when it comes to fighting global terrorism, they need the close cooperation with other countries intelligence and police services. Economically individual countries like Greece or the Netherlands are to weak to make any impact on the global markets and those markets would eventually end up dictating economic policy in those countries. The EU however is big and strong enough to for some extend defy the markets or at least implement its own measures.

As for political sovereignty, well, stepping out of the EU would perhaps give you some sovereignty back, but at a very high cost. Assuming you still want to do business with the EU, you still have to deal with a lot of measures they set up, only instead of being able to influence those measures, you just have to follow them up because you stepped out of the EU. So, in that sense you only lose sovereignty. You can make more deals with other countries without going through Brussels, but do you really think that a small country like Greece or the Netherlands is individually strong enough to get a favorable deal with far bigger countries? I doubt it.

The real problem with nationalism is that we do not have enough of it on a European level. We are afraid that creating some kind of common European identity will remove any national identities or we are afraid that nationalism spirals out of control and we end up with extremist factions on a European scale. I do not believe that is the case, I think that the EU can create a positive European identity without destroying all the local identities. In fact, I believe that a European identity in the long run can protect all the local identities from being destroyed by globalism. But yeah, the EU suffers from a PR problem. Most people have no idea what the EU actually does, and that makes them easy victims of mistaken nationalists who want out of the EU. If the EU could actually show to people how much they benefit from being part of the EU in so many ways, it might make it harder for those nationalist to come into a position where they can seriously harm the EU.

[Sandis_van_Great 346]

Im from Latvia.

Okey than explain me, what good does it do?

Dude, thats Eastern Europe. Former Soviet controlled space. Yes, a lot of factories got closed, either because they are not up to the safety and health standards the EU sets for its member states (oh how terrible, the EU wants to protect your health by not having you live next to a polluting factory) or because they were state controlled which does not fit with the EU free market, which means that they needed to be privatized. And a lot of former Soviet factories were so horribly inefficient and cost ineffective that they simply could not survive on the free market without massive state subsidies. Or to put it this way, if those factories were privately owned and conformed to all safety and health standards, than the EU has no power over them. The EU cannot tell businesses to just close down without a very good legal reason. Wanting to change the Latvian economy from a production economy towards a consumer economy is not a legal reason at all.

So, what does the EU do for you and your country? Well for starters, on your own Latvia is an insignificant little place, politically unimportant, economically not a super power. Compared to Russia, China, the US and growing global players like Brazil and India, Latvia plays no role of any significance in the world. However, the EU does, because the EU is pretty much every European country put into one political union. Together Europe is much stronger than any of the individual member states could ever be, together Europe can form an effective counter weight against all the other world powers. And as part of the EU, Latvia has a voice in the decision making process, which means it can protect its interests far more effectively than it could ever hope to do on its own. Which seems rather useful when you're geographically so close to Russia.

Furthermore, becoming part of the EU has given Latvia business access to one of the largest markets in the world, with no import barriers. Quite useful for anyone who wants to start a business in Latvia, they can operate freely anywhere in Europe. Then there is of course the fact that Latvia is a net. receiver, meaning they get more money from the EU than what they pay. Free money to help build up the economy and what not. Oh, as for the Euro, well right now I agree, its a bit unstable. But, it also saves people money, especially if they go on holidays or do business with other European countries. And if Brussels pulls through and implements the necessary regulations to make the Euro stable again, all Euro members will benefit from it in the long run.

The EU also sets standards for products in order to ensure public health and safety, avoid the exploitation of workers, ensures a minimum of social security, protects civil rights and freedoms within its member states, allows European citizens to travel, study, live and work anywhere within the EU without any kind of restrictions. And it promotes local cultures and diversity rather than pushing for a homogeneous pan-European culture.

Is the EU perfect? No, it can do better in some areas. It could be more democratic, although this is in part caused by the fact that European elections have rather low voter turnout ratings. More people should vote rather than complain that Europe is so stupid. Furthermore, its possible to start citizen initiatives and send complaints to the Commission to which they must respond. But yeah, if no one makes use of this....

Next year the European Parliament holds elections again, so I would suggest you go out and vote.

Well, the EU is smaller than the USA, Canada, and Russia in landmass, if I am not mistaken. One problem standing in the way of success of the EU is nationalism and different economic models historically favored by various European nations. I would not be surprised if the EU lasts for a shorter amount of time than the USSR did even though the USSR was far larger in area.

--Ocram

Meh, the economic models are mostly the same within Europe. Free market capitalism, where states still can put the accent on what they find more important, focus on employment or focus on economic growth. As for nationalism, I agree, it is beginning to become a bit of a problem in some European countries, especially the ones affected heavily by the crisis. But these Nationalists often fail to mention is the crisis they are in is for a large part caused not by Brussels but by themselves. Stepping out of the EU will not only not solve any of their problems, it will also deny them further access to all forms of support and help that the EU can give to help them solve their problems.

Another terribly flawed argument that Nationalists tend to use is that they don't like giving Brussels all the sovereignty. They mistakenly assume that in today's world, a country like Greece or the Netherlands would have any real sovereignty if they stepped out of the EU. All European nations heavily rely on NATO in case of a war, most countries would not hold for more than a week in case of a full scale invasion, and when it comes to fighting global terrorism, they need the close cooperation with other countries intelligence and police services. Economically individual countries like Greece or the Netherlands are to weak to make any impact on the global markets and those markets would eventually end up dictating economic policy in those countries. The EU however is big and strong enough to for some extend defy the markets or at least implement its own measures.

As for political sovereignty, well, stepping out of the EU would perhaps give you some sovereignty back, but at a very high cost. Assuming you still want to do business with the EU, you still have to deal with a lot of measures they set up, only instead of being able to influence those measures, you just have to follow them up because you stepped out of the EU. So, in that sense you only lose sovereignty. You can make more deals with other countries without going through Brussels, but do you really think that a small country like Greece or the Netherlands is individually strong enough to get a favorable deal with far bigger countries? I doubt it.

The real problem with nationalism is that we do not have enough of it on a European level. We are afraid that creating some kind of common European identity will remove any national identities or we are afraid that nationalism spirals out of control and we end up with extremist factions on a European scale. I do not believe that is the case, I think that the EU can create a positive European identity without destroying all the local identities. In fact, I believe that a European identity in the long run can protect all the local identities from being destroyed by globalism. But yeah, the EU suffers from a PR problem. Most people have no idea what the EU actually does, and that makes them easy victims of mistaken nationalists who want out of the EU. If the EU could actually show to people how much they benefit from being part of the EU in so many ways, it might make it harder for those nationalist to come into a position where they can seriously harm the EU.

Latvia is north europa - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg

and from wiki - Latvia ⁱ/ˈlætviə/ (Latvian: Latvija), officially the Republic of Latvia (Latvian: Latvijas Republika), is a country in the Baltic region of Northern Europe

For exemple, in my city there was a suger fabric which got closed down not becouse of health or pollution or that it was old but becouse, as they said, Denmark was producing sugger for EU.

And dont even tell me that all our fabrics are crap, especially when you have never even lived there , or maybe not even been to visit it. We have several modern and high quality factories that are still opperating.

Just so you know , soviet union toke away everything from us when it collapsed, all the machinery and fabric equipment, they burned down their fabrics. So not much if left from them.

EU is treating Latvia like an laboratory bunny. After the global crisis hit EU and world bank ordered us to put alot and i meen ALOT of cut of's from our budget. And like you said, becouse Latvia is small, it dosnt really have much to say about things so we have no choise just to fallow everything EU thinks is right. We hade to close down several schools and hospitals just becouse of the cut of's and exept the EU itself , there have been alot of economical speiclists from all over the world that have said that EU is using Latvia as an experiment to see how a country will do in this harsh conditions they are forcing us to do, and look now where it pusht us, Latvia is just above Bulgaria in powerty.

Like i said befor, EU only cares about some of the countries, not all of them.

Yeah i do agree that it did help with bussines in Latvia and to work with EU toghetther and i do agree that they are giving us some money to help and such, but lets not forget that EU is giving money to alot of countrys, and coutrys are getting too used to it and after the EU is gona fall how do you think half of the EU countries will stand back on its own feets when they have gone used to this free money?

And by the way, you are talking like a typical western european who have its stereotypes on east europeans.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Latvia is north europa - http://upload.wikime...UN_geoschme.svg

and from wiki - Latviaⁱ/ˈlætviə/ (Latvian: Latvija), officially the Republic of Latvia (Latvian: Latvijas Republika), is a country in the Baltic region of Northern Europe

Fine, youre Northern Europe. It really doesn't matter, the point was that you were a former Communist country.

For exemple, in my city there was a suger fabric which got closed down not becouse of health or pollution or that it was old but becouse, as they said, Denmark was producing sugger for EU.

I doubt 'they' in this case was Europe. I think its more likely that the factory got closed down because it couldn't compete with Denmark, rather than Brussels saying that only one country in Europe can produce sugar.

And dont even tell me that all our fabrics are crap, especially when you have never even lived there , or maybe not even been to visit it. We have several modern and high quality factories that are still opperating.

I never said that all you factories are crap, I said the ones that closed down where unlikely to have survived the competition without massive subsidies and went out of business because of that.

EU is treating Latvia like an laboratory bunny. After the global crisis hit EU and world bank ordered us to put alot and i meen ALOT of cut of's from our budget. And like you said, becouse Latvia is small, it dosnt really have much to say about things so we have no choise just to fallow everything EU thinks is right. We hade to close down several schools and hospitals just becouse of the cut of's and exept the EU itself , there have been alot of economical speiclists from all over the world that have said that EU is using Latvia as an experiment to see how a country will do in this harsh conditions they are forcing us to do, and look now where it pusht us, Latvia is just above Bulgaria in powerty.

The World Bank is not an EU institution, nor is it controlled by the EU. Austerity measures suck, but you are far from the only country who has to cut back a lot. Pretty much every European country at this moment has to cut back a lot.

As for having a say in this, you would even have less of a say in this if you were not part of the EU. The World Bank still would have demanded the cuts before anymore loans could be taken out, and those cuts would have hurt even more due to the fact you would not have access to the European single market which would have restricted any economic growth.

Also, how do you measure poverty?

Like i said befor, EU only cares about some of the countries, not all of them.

As I said, pretty much every European country is currently facing severe budget cuts.

Yeah i do agree that it did help with bussines in Latvia and to work with EU toghetther and i do agree that they are giving us some money to help and such, but lets not forget that EU is giving money to alot of countrys, and coutrys are getting too used to it and after the EU is gona fall how do you think half of the EU countries will stand back on its own feets when they have gone used to this free money?

Better if it doesn't fail then.

And by the way, you are talking like a typical western european who have its stereotypes on east europeans.

And what would that stereotype be? That I called you Eastern European? Well Im sorry, we in the West consider everything that used to be communist east, mostly because geographically speaking, all those countries are located east of us. Well, in your case, North East. I mean nothing with it.

[Sandis_van_Great 346]

Latvia is north europa - http://upload.wikime...UN_geoschme.svg

and from wiki - Latviaⁱ/ˈlætviə/ (Latvian: Latvija), officially the Republic of Latvia (Latvian: Latvijas Republika), is a country in the Baltic region of Northern Europe

Fine, youre Northern Europe. It really doesn't matter, the point was that you were a former Communist country.

For exemple, in my city there was a suger fabric which got closed down not becouse of health or pollution or that it was old but becouse, as they said, Denmark was producing sugger for EU.

I doubt 'they' in this case was Europe. I think its more likely that the factory got closed down because it couldn't compete with Denmark, rather than Brussels saying that only one country in Europe can produce sugar.

And dont even tell me that all our fabrics are crap, especially when you have never even lived there , or maybe not even been to visit it. We have several modern and high quality factories that are still opperating.

I never said that all you factories are crap, I said the ones that closed down where unlikely to have survived the competition without massive subsidies and went out of business because of that.

EU is treating Latvia like an laboratory bunny. After the global crisis hit EU and world bank ordered us to put alot and i meen ALOT of cut of's from our budget. And like you said, becouse Latvia is small, it dosnt really have much to say about things so we have no choise just to fallow everything EU thinks is right. We hade to close down several schools and hospitals just becouse of the cut of's and exept the EU itself , there have been alot of economical speiclists from all over the world that have said that EU is using Latvia as an experiment to see how a country will do in this harsh conditions they are forcing us to do, and look now where it pusht us, Latvia is just above Bulgaria in powerty.

The World Bank is not an EU institution, nor is it controlled by the EU. Austerity measures suck, but you are far from the only country who has to cut back a lot. Pretty much every European country at this moment has to cut back a lot.

As for having a say in this, you would even have less of a say in this if you were not part of the EU. The World Bank still would have demanded the cuts before anymore loans could be taken out, and those cuts would have hurt even more due to the fact you would not have access to the European single market which would have restricted any economic growth.

Also, how do you measure poverty?

Like i said befor, EU only cares about some of the countries, not all of them.

As I said, pretty much every European country is currently facing severe budget cuts.

Yeah i do agree that it did help with bussines in Latvia and to work with EU toghetther and i do agree that they are giving us some money to help and such, but lets not forget that EU is giving money to alot of countrys, and coutrys are getting too used to it and after the EU is gona fall how do you think half of the EU countries will stand back on its own feets when they have gone used to this free money?

Better if it doesn't fail then.

And by the way, you are talking like a typical western european who have its stereotypes on east europeans.

And what would that stereotype be? That I called you Eastern European? Well Im sorry, we in the West consider everything that used to be communist east, mostly because geographically speaking, all those countries are located east of us. Well, in your case, North East. I mean nothing with it.

In all end, i don't want to argue about this since you have low knowledge about Latvia, and the topic wosnt about Latvia anyway

But i do understand why UK would act like this and it dosnt suprise me.

And like i said befor, EU is just a growing bubble that will pop soon (you cant escape it, it will happend sooner or later) and it will only make things worse than it is now. World itself is pritty unstable.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I have a friend in England who thinks that the distance between England and France is huge but the distance between England and the US is small. She thinks England should become the 51st state. Difficult to tell if she is serious but, for the most part, I believe she is.

I told her she would have to give up her healthcare and learn to carry a gun. She said maybe she should rethink this.

Lol, really Meg? At good days you can even see the French coast if youre standing at the cliffs around Dover

I choose to ignore the spat in the Baltic states. They are still recovering from being eaten by the bear.

My friends, you are forgetting the Commonwealth of Nations of which the UK is the founder and leader. The UK wouldn't have to go it alone if it dropped membership in the EU.

Historically, a big chunk of the continent was in English hands for quite a long period, and I am sure that grudges are still around. Stop and think about the Angevin Empire. France and England are traditional unfriends, probably even moreso than France and Germany. In any case cats and dogs cannot be mutually fertile. On the other hand, the British Empire dissolved, more or less amicably, into the Commonwealth, and while some became republics they still maintain membership. This is probably the largest trading group in the world and if the EU did anything stupid like sanctioning the UK, what do you suppose the Commonwealth might do in response?

IMHO the psyche of the countries in continental Europe is rather bruised from centuries of internecine warfare mostly caused by avarice, and the UK would be well rid of this taint.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

The Baltic countries have always had it rough. They were bossed around by the USSR and now the EU and I believe Poland before. Also, European nations have always been very nationalistic, such nationalism has only just started to lessen in recent years. European Nationalism caused WWI.

--Ocram

[LexusInfernus 908]

Historically, a big chunk of the continent was in English hands for quite a long period, and I am sure that grudges are still around. Stop and think about the Angevin Empire. France and England are traditional unfriends, probably even moreso than France and Germany. In any case cats and dogs cannot be mutually fertile. On the other hand, the British Empire dissolved, more or less amicably, into the Commonwealth, and while some became republics they still maintain membership. This is probably the largest trading group in the world and if the EU did anything stupid like sanctioning the UK, what do you suppose the Commonwealth might do in response?

IMHO the psyche of the countries in continental Europe is rather bruised from centuries of internecine warfare mostly caused by avarice, and the UK would be well rid of this taint.

What? France and England have been pretty close ever since before WWI. They were both put emphasis on Liberalism rather than Prussian/Austrian/Russian conservatism. That made them natural allies after the Napoleonic wars. Its true that Germany and France were enemies for the longest time and that is exactly what the EU has changed. Right now Paris and Berlin are pretty close on a lot of issues. Much more so than Paris and London or Berlin and London. And seriously, today's politicians are to professional to let 100 year old grudges define their political behavior.

If anything, the current psyche is defined by the destructiveness of the Second World War and the idea that such wars should be avoided at all costs. In that sense, the EU is extremely successful since war between member states is almost impossible. And both Paris and Berlin have found that its far more beneficial for both countries to work together in today's world rather than go at it alone. A lesson they apparantly have not learned yet in the UK. Splendid isolation is no longer an option in the globalized world. And a commonwealth is nice, but hardly a political power by itself.

The Baltic countries have always had it rough. They were bossed around by the USSR and now the EU and I believe Poland before. Also, European nations have always been very nationalistic, such nationalism has only just started to lessen in recent years. European Nationalism caused WWI.

--Ocram

A fairy tale. European nationalism did not cause WWI. It played a role mostly in the sense that nationalism caused so many young men to march eagerly to their deaths. However, the war was not fought because in Germany, Russia, France, Austria and England they thought it was a good idea to prove that their piece of real estate was so much more awesome than everyone else's piece of real estate that they should kill each other over it. Still, nationalism has been considered dangerous since it did play a vital role in the rise of the Nazi party, which did pretty much start a war because they felt that Germany was so awesome that it deserved more land than those stupid countries around them.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

France and England have a very long history of bashing each other about. The amicability in the 20th century is rather new, all things considered. Remember, the current set up in the UK is a direct inheritance from the Norman conquest of 1066 when poor Harold looked up when he shouldn't have. The Plantagenets (who were Normans, really) married into the Aquitaine royal family and acquired the whole area by marriage. At that time, France didn't really have much of an existence outside of the area around Paris (Lutetia). Then the consolidation of France started, and they fought off the English for a century or two. By the end of the 18th Century, France as we now know it was pretty much there. After a few scuffles with the Teutonic tribes, things settled down to what they had in 1900, not counting the horrible period of the Directory and the Napoleonic wars. The last king of France was probably Gen. Charles de Gaulle^*, although he would have rejected the title. Wonder why Churchill said the worst cross he had to bear was the cross of Lorraine?

---

De Gaulle had enough to be in tres partes divisa. AFAIK he is the only head of state publicly declared personna non grata by the Prime Minister of Canada. "Vive le Quebec Libre", indeed. Damned fool.

Any by the way, I was in Montreal at the time, and one of my colleagues wanted to go and blow up the French destroyer, Colbert, because it lay in the Montreal roads flying only the French tricolour. An act of war in a putative friendly port in the eyes of some.