Afghanistan and all that

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

If you haven't voted please read this, then vote.

I, for one, am sick of having our people attacked. So I am voting yes.

[chicah 20]

Since we entered Afghanistan, Taliban have grown. Why? Because when your country is invaded, you fight the occupation. Or, if you don't fight, and your friends or family members end up "collateral damage", you get angry. You want revenge. You go for what seems like the only plausible alternative to an American-"controlled" government: In this case, the Taliban.

The western forces claim to be there because of democracy, women's rights and so forth. I think it's bull. Some of the soldiers might have gone there for those noble reasons, but there is always big politics behind this. The western world needs a stronghold in the Arab world, and as Israel has proved unstable and not very popular amongst its neighbours, they need a new puppy. Afghanistan has never been taken by a foreign force. The Brits tried, the Soviets tried - they both had to pull out. So must we. Some of the people we helped get to power just to make sure the Taliban were weakened, are WORSE than the Taliban.

Some of them are warlords. One of them is Dostum. He picked up his political opponents, dressed them naked, beat them up and threw them into a container. He then drove the container out in the middle of desert and left it there, then came back one month later to pick up the container - and the ashes. Are those the kind of people we WANT to support? I recommend everyone to read a book written by Malalai Joya, former Afghani MP, called "Woman amongst warlords". She spoke up against the western invasion and the warlords alike, and was thrown out of parliament for it. Brave woman, one of my (s)heroes. She is also one of the firmest opposers to the western presence in Afghanistan.

  Edited September 13, 2011 by chicah  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^ You do have a point. No one in the twentieth century succeeded in Afghanistan. Neither did the British Raj, nor did anyone else including Alexander the Great. The country is intractable, and its topography makes it impossible.

As far a democratic ideals are concerned, this can only arise from the people of the country. Democracy, especially our twisted brand, can never be imposed from without.

We need to come home and tend to our knitting before we go broke trying to keep these foreign adventures going. Both we and the Americans can use all the man-power we can get to repair our neglected infra-structure. Although some of us are mightily tempted, none of us shoots at a road construction crew.

And if the oil-sheiks don't want to sell us oil, let them eat it. We are self-sufficient, and let us stop polluting the oceans with all those sunken tankers.

[TekindusT 3,809]

You've got my loudest YES from me.

Nobody has been able to control Afghanistan, this point has been rised above. I'd like to take the economic approach in this issue, though. I mean, all wars are expensive, and our countries (Canada, Norway, Spain, wherever...) are facing serious social cuts while having troops deployed in Afghanistan. This isn't a humanitary mission, this is a war; and I don't want to see my taxes spent in wars. And not to talk about the soldiers dead in this war...

Withdrawing troops would be the coward option? Of course, but it would also be the sensible one.

  Edited September 13, 2011 by TekindusT  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^ "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day".

Unpopular foreign wars were one of the primary causes of the fall of the Roman Empire.

People who forget history get to live it over again.

[Easy Bakes 253]

^ "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day".

Unpopular foreign wars were one of the primary causes of the fall of the Roman Empire.

People who forget history get to live it over again.

We are repeating 2000 years of failures trying to take over this place.

Its always about money or power, so why not just buy thier produce and let em run thier country

as they see fit.Eventualy Islam will join the 21st century, but let it evolve at it own pace.

[Duke87 1,070]

Osama's dead. We're broke. We're accomplishing nothing productive.

Yeah, time to get out.

[MayorAwesome 12]

I'd say that we should pull our troops out. We will not get anywhere trying to force them into democracy. I feel that our troops are much more needed in other places then in the middle east where we do not seem to be doing anything good for the countries in the middle east.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^ "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day".

Unpopular foreign wars were one of the primary causes of the fall of the Roman Empire.

People who forget history get to live it over again.

We are repeating 2000 years of failures trying to take over this place.

Its always about money or power, so why not just buy their produce and let em run thier country

as they see fit.Eventually Islam will join the 21st century, but let it evolve at it own pace.

Their only export is opium. The only way to handle that is purchase all of it, keep what we need for medicinal purposes and incinerate the rest. Would put a huge hole in the illegal drug trade. It would probably result in less being spent on the "war on drugs".

We need all our manpower at home. The money being spent on foreign adventures would look much better fixing up our roads and bridges before they collapse and before the sewers collapse and cause a continent-wide sanitary emergency. Many of our service people have skill sets needed in the economy at home.

  Edited September 14, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[airman15 4,111]

We should leave, we already crippled terrorist operations but we just barely have enough (if any) money to get by as a country. The reason why we are this way is because we thought we can put some effort into helping others but he have already sent out all of our resources and we can't really sustain ourselves as a result. It seems America does too much elsewhere and not enough at home so we really should come back since a majority of the things we do abroad are not really our business...

  Edited September 18, 2011 by usfighter15  

[Easy Bakes 253]

What about those massive Lithium deposits they think are there

The Lithuim Li

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

What about those massive Lithium deposits they think are there

The Lithuim Li

So what? We should all go home and if the industrial hegemony want to develop that, let them make their own deal. I can see no reason for NATO countries to continue foreign aid to a dog that bites.

[hym 358]

So what? We should all go home and if the industrial hegemony want to develop that, let them make their own deal. I can see no reason for NATO countries to continue foreign aid to a dog that bites.

But that will eventually lead to private security contractors being brought in to provide security for the industrial facilities.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

So what? We should all go home and if the industrial hegemony want to develop that, let them make their own deal. I can see no reason for NATO countries to continue foreign aid to a dog that bites.

But that will eventually lead to private security contractors being brought in to provide security for the industrial facilities.

And you object to not spending public money, why?

[hym 358]

So what? We should all go home and if the industrial hegemony want to develop that, let them make their own deal. I can see no reason for NATO countries to continue foreign aid to a dog that bites.

But that will eventually lead to private security contractors being brought in to provide security for the industrial facilities.

And you object to not spending public money, why?

When the US hatched the plan to make things more difficult for the Taliban by improving relationships with the varying tribes in the regions, they found that it was imperative to perform reconnaissance operations on the various tribes of interest prior to meeting with the tribal leaders. Soldiers told their superiors of countless numbers of tribes who had been engaged in bloody wars with other tribes over a single goat that was stolen over 60 years ago, or tribes that had been fighting over the alleged murder of someone's grandfather over a century ago.

The moment you bring non-governmental security forces into something like this, you are asking for a war. Sooner or later, an armed conflict with occur, and you will have set the tables for another decades long blood feud that will very likely bring back in military forces.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

So what? We should all go home and if the industrial hegemony want to develop that, let them make their own deal. I can see no reason for NATO countries to continue foreign aid to a dog that bites.

But that will eventually lead to private security contractors being brought in to provide security for the industrial facilities.

And you object to not spending public money, why?

When the US hatched the plan to make things more difficult for the Taliban by improving relationships with the varying tribes in the regions, they found that it was imperative to perform reconnaissance operations on the various tribes of interest prior to meeting with the tribal leaders. Soldiers told their superiors of countless numbers of tribes who had been engaged in bloody wars with other tribes over a single goat that was stolen over 60 years ago, or tribes that had been fighting over the alleged murder of someone's grandfather over a century ago.

The moment you bring non-governmental security forces into something like this, you are asking for a war. Sooner or later, an armed conflict with occur, and you will have set the tables for another decades long blood feud that will very likely bring back in military forces.

What if there is a strict hands-off policy where everyone there is on their own with no right to call for government assistance? When in Rome ...

[hym 358]

What if there is a strict hands-off policy where everyone there is on their own with no right to call for government assistance? When in Rome ...

It will still go to hell at some point, we'll start hearing on the news stories about "blood lithium," at which point grieving families will start demanding for the government to do something, and the politicians will start making promises that they won't let the constituents' family members be slaughtered.

If you're going to undertake material extraction operations and provide security forces, they need to be wearing the flag of a national government. Otherwise the whole thing will go to hell sooner or later and you'll be sending the troops out there anyway.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

What if there is a strict hands-off policy where everyone there is on their own with no right to call for government assistance? When in Rome ...

It will still go to hell at some point, we'll start hearing on the news stories about "blood lithium," at which point grieving families will start demanding for the government to do something, and the politicians will start making promises that they won't let the constituents' family members be slaughtered.

If you're going to undertake material extraction operations and provide security forces, they need to be wearing the flag of a national government. Otherwise the whole thing will go to hell sooner or later and you'll be sending the troops out there anyway.

Weird. You sound like a Roman. Civis Romanus sum and all that. Mercenaries get killed, and it doesn't matter what the name of the umbrella organization is. People like that have to look after their own.

Afghanistan is a place that is a non-place for anyone but the Afghanis. The number of warring tribes seems to increase exponentially and they only unite to repel invaders. All the surrounding tribes would have to be well and truly greased if mining was to take place. No amount of education nor coercive force will help this. They are perfectly happy the way they are, and we will not be able to make them unhappy, just provide them with some sport. The only good and beautiful thing that has ever come from there is the very elegant Afghan Hound.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I think that if we f'd it up, then we need to make it right. Withdrawing is mostly advocated by those who got us in this mess from the start. They just want to escape the result, but I have no sympathy for their ilk.

Basically, we cooked it, now we have to eat it. It's a little late for reservations from Coalition members.

Barbarossa

Let us not confuse Afghanistan with the adventure in Iraq. The coalition is in Iraq. What we have in Afghanistan is a NATO "police" action. It is time to realize that no-one, not even the almighty only super-power in the world can to nothing about those stiff necks other than removing a lot of heads, and then you'd have to bury them. All at more money than even your economy can afford.

[chicah 20]

A Nonny Moose, even though I agree that we have to pull out, I just have to add that I find your way of talking about Afghanistan extremly offensive. First of all, you seem to only care about money, and measure the cost of burying dead. Secondly, you speak like they are all a bunch of lesser lifeforms, who are stupid and cruel. This is not true. We must never forget that everyone in this world are exactly like us, just with a different background. And the islam world and middle east has contributed greatly to our modern world, they were much more advanced than us when it came to medicine, astronomy etc. for a very long time, and they helped us "catch up". We paid them back by going all crusade on them.

Anyways, I just think you should consider how you speak of other people. Just because they are different than you does not mean they're not as "good" as you are.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

A Nonny Moose, even though I agree that we have to pull out, I just have to add that I find your way of talking about Afghanistan extremly offensive. First of all, you seem to only care about money, and measure the cost of burying dead. Secondly, you speak like they are all a bunch of lesser lifeforms, who are stupid and cruel. This is not true. We must never forget that everyone in this world are exactly like us, just with a different background. And the islam world and middle east has contributed greatly to our modern world, they were much more advanced than us when it came to medicine, astronomy etc. for a very long time, and they helped us "catch up". We paid them back by going all crusade on them.

Anyways, I just think you should consider how you speak of other people. Just because they are different than you does not mean they're not as "good" as you are.

I am sorry if you find my tone offensive, but the Afghan people have had nothing but invaders for most of recorded history. I am rather disgusted with the attitude of many countries that they should conform to some culture that is not home-grown. I frankly could care less about money, so I don't know where you get that idea.

I am simply disgusted with foreign adventures by would-be conquerors. If there is mineral wealth in Afghanistan, let it be developed by and for the Afghanis. You should realize that one of the devices I most often use is scathing sarcasm, and if this offends you, I do apologize.

Take a look at the history of the area from the time of, say Alexander the Great, and I think you will have a better feel from my point of view.