The "Glasgow Effect"

[Athanasius 0]

http://www.gcph.co.uk/work_programmes/understanding_glasgows_health/exploring_the_glasgow_effect_glasgow_liverpool_and_man

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12267237

Glasgow has the lowest male life expectancy in Great Britain with places like the Calton having male life expectancy at 54

but even after compensating for bad diet, poverty and industrial decline Glasgow has a significantly higher mortality rate than comparable cities in the UK such as Manchester and Liverpool. Former communist states which had a lower life expectancy than Glasgow having rising life expectancies.

any theories as to why Glasgow has this anaccounted for 15% difference in mortality rate?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

First, I am converting to hot links.  You really should do this, you know.

www.gcph.co.uk/work_programmes/understanding_glasgows_health/exploring_the_glasgow_effect_glasgow_liverpool_and_man

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12267237

I'll look at them, then add a comment if necessary.

---

OK, now the first is a summary that leads to a lot more documentation.  Frankly, I don't care enough about it to delve that deeply into scientific papers.  The second is a sound byte with a faint Scottish accent, so be prepared.

Now, getting coronary disease when you live in Glasgow seems to be a risk.  I am sure the research papers cover this.  My only comment is that I wouldn't like to live in Glasgow.

[Easy Bakes 253]

An interesting study.

Wonder if the effects are genetic. Scots may not be from the same genitic background as the british.

or mabey its just polution.

[Athanasius 0]

even when you compare them to similar cities there is a significantly higher mortality than other post-industrial cities

the point that makes this thread worthy is that merely living in Glasgow seems to give you coronary heart disease even if you take care of yourself.

genes in the last 20 years haven't changed much. Glasgow had the "regular" rates of disease as other big, poor cities

there isn't any difference in pollution since it's all road pollution in Glasgow.

[nathanthemayor 1,261]

Yes, interesting story here...

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I heard in a satirical book that Glasgow was the work of the devil/demons.

[GMT 389]

I'll shoot at the genes here.

Glasgow has been a heavy duty industry city "back then" and I can think of all the poor diet and chemicals and poor environmental standards at that time and whatever devilish ehausts there been and so on, that this could have had a lasting effect on those genes and now they're going bonkers on the descendants

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

An interesting study.

Wonder if the effects are genetic. Scots may not be from the same genitic background as the british.

or mabey its just polution.quote>

The English are a mixed bag of Saxons, Celts, and Normans, while the Scots have mostly Pictish ancestry.  Remember Hadrian's wall?

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

You guys should just read some Ian Rankin, or Irvine Welsh. Scotland in a nutshell. Still, I'd live there in a heartbeat, at least for a little while.

Barbarossaquote>

Edinburgh maybe, but if I lived in Scotland, I want a nice little town in the highlands awa' fro' those lowland sassenachs.

[fukuda 351]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Wonder if the effects are genetic. Scots may not be from the same genitic background as the british.quote>

Genetic effects are inversely correlated with population size and dynamics (migration), i.e. a city is basically the last place where you'd look for them.

I'll shoot at the genes here.

Glasgow has been a heavy duty industry city "back then" and I can think of all the poor diet and chemicals and poor environmental standards at that time and whatever devilish ehausts there been and so on, that this could have had a lasting effect on those genes and now they're going bonkers on the descendantsquote>

Veeery unlikely. Even though there are quite a lot of new mutations every generation, the immense majority has no effect at all. Even if environmental pollutants caused a rise in mutations, it would take quite a lot of time for them to be fixed in the population, and it'd be virtually impossible for them to do so in a city. You'd need a huge decrease in population and migration and a bit of (bad) luck for them to become so widespread.

There is actually a non-genetic way to cause a widespread and biologically inheritable "defect", but there are no other cases known of this in polluted and industrial cities.

The causes are probably a complex tangle of unrelated problems, as they usually happen to be in real world problems...

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: fukuda

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Wonder if the effects are genetic. Scots may not be from the same genitic background as the british.quote>

Genetic effects are inversely correlated with population size and dynamics (migration), i.e. a city is basically the last place where you'd look for them.

I'll shoot at the genes here.

Glasgow has been a heavy duty industry city "back then" and I can think of all the poor diet and chemicals and poor environmental standards at that time and whatever devilish ehausts there been and so on, that this could have had a lasting effect on those genes and now they're going bonkers on the descendantsquote>

Veeery unlikely. Even though there are quite a lot of new mutations every generation, the immense majority has no effect at all. Even if environmental pollutants caused a rise in mutations, it would take quite a lot of time for them to be fixed in the population, and it'd be virtually impossible for them to do so in a city. You'd need a huge decrease in population and migration and a bit of (bad) luck for them to become so widespread.

There is actually a non-genetic way to cause a widespread and biologically inheritable "defect", but there are no other cases known of this in polluted and industrial cities.

The causes are probably a complex tangle of unrelated problems, as they usually happen to be in real world problems...

quote>

Even though environmental pollutants may not cause a rise in mutations, It may explain the rise in cardiovascular diease and cancers especialy if those polutants  have not been cleaned up as well as they were in some other post

industrial citys so the people are still  getting or staying sick.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

That is probably a good argument.  Just how badly contaminated is Glasgow, and with what?

[Athanasius 0]

considering that the industries were steel and shipbuilding. mostly sulphates and soot. the industry is of course long gone and most of the pollution went into the river Clyde

however Glasgow used to have a rickets problem due to the soot in the air blocking the UV rays from reaching people's skin. rickets is on the rise but only among those who have more skin pigmentation.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Vitamin D with Calcium Citrate is availabe and inexpensive.  There is no excuse for ricketts.

Did you know, speaking of deficiency diseases, that when Charles Stuart was in Scotland in the 1740's he had scurvy?  He would eat only meat.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Originally posted by: GMT

I'll shoot at the genes here.

Glasgow has been a heavy duty industry city "back then" and I can think of all the poor diet and chemicals and poor environmental standards at that time and whatever devilish ehausts there been and so on, that this could have had a lasting effect on those genes and now they're going bonkers on the descendantsquote>

If it was Genes it would also affect Glaswegians living elsewhere, as they come from the same gene-pool.

More likely is this:-

1) Deep-fried "Mars" bars.

2) High rates of alcohol use.

3) Water coming through lead(pb) pipes.

Not to mention the Glasgow Kiss.

Actually Glasgow is much improved from the bad old days.

[fukuda 351]

Originally posted by: Merlin of Flyote

If it was Genes it would also affect Glaswegians living elsewhere, as they come from the same gene-pool.quote>

Hmmm.. there could be an interaction between genes and a special environment not happening anywhere else, but again it's extremely unlikely to happen in a big city.

Originally posted by: Merlin of Flyote

1) Deep-fried "Mars" bars. + alcoholismquote>

My poor liver is hurting just at the thought of it...

[exc5 0]

agree with Merlin of Flyote

also is one the most deprived area in britian with all the heavy industry disappearing quickly (thx Mrs Thacher) also drugs, NEDs and Buckie don't help

Scots are mixture of celtic (Geal, Pict and Briton) and norse

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Low life expectancy is usually caused by poor health care (infant mortality rate, death from sickness, death from need of surgery), pollution, and violent crimes.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Low life expectancy is usually caused by poor health care (infant mortality rate, death from sickness, death from need of surgery), pollution, and violent crimes.

Health care is OK (NHS), pollution is not that bad these days (thanks Mrs. Thatcher), and it's not that violent (except for "the Glasgow Kiss").

In the past poverty and pollution were a problem. Currently poor diet and alcholism are issues.

It also varies in different parts of Glasgow the East being worst. 20 miles accross the city, life expectancy can change by 30 years.

  Edited April 9, 2011 by Merlin of Flyote