World Affairs

[Duke87 1,070]

I don't see where this idea of nature having ways of righting wrongs or eliminating bad things is coming from. Natural selection has nothing to do with morality. And mass extinction events are rare.

As for the matter of economic disparity... well, it is only natural for those with little to be jealous of those who have a lot. This is true globally just as it is locally. But let's stop with the guilt trips and self-flagellation here for a second and be frank: while western forces (colonialism, military campaigns) have done and are doing harm to parts of Africa, Asia, and Latin America, the poverty and lack of stability in many of these places isn't really the fault of anyone in Europe or the US. It comes from the fact that they have been unable to set up reliable governments. These countries are populated by tribesman and led by thugs, and so long as that remains the case they will be unable to see economic prosperity the way that developed nations have. And this lack of "proper" governance is not due to anything any outside forces are doing or have done. It is merely due to the fact that the local culture is one of having a strong man in charge, not one of doing things democratically. The people just don't operate on those principles. No wonder Karzai's government in Afghanistan has quickly degraded into just another corrupt thugocracy! That's just how the game is played in the third world. And that's why the third world is the third world.

Ultimately, though, there is a sort of yin and yang at work here. The first world's existence does depend on there being a third world where you can set up sweatshops and all that. And while it is tempting to view this as horrible and oppressive, it only looks that way from our perspective. For the people in places like China and India, working in a sweatshop is far better than not having a job at all. They're perfectly willing, it's not like we've enslaved them.

And what's more, nature does not hate this disparity one bit. In fact, it likes it. There have been rich people and poor people since there has been such a thing as money, perhaps before. That isn't about to change. The Soviets tried, they failed. Other nations like North Korea are trying and have only made everyone impoverished in the process. And all throughout history, when nations have attempted to make things more fair, elites have taken power away from the masses and the society has degraded into an oligarchy. When it comes to money and power, it is even distribution that nature abhors, not disparity.

[DocRorlach 25]

Duke,

Maybe you recall a comparison that made its appearance back in the Fifties or Sixties: if you transfer the age of this planet as we assume it, humans have been around for less than five minutes. Yet in terms of damage to said planet it sometime seems that we have been here forever. True enough, nature does appear to appreciate disparity, the variety of species might induce one to think so. However, that disparity is really that of cogs in a huge machinery: different types and sizes working together to make the entire machine work.

And nature is self-correcting, that is what evolution is all about. Just ask the medical folks trying to stamp out certain disease like Malaria or other illnesses transmitted by mosquitos: the insect, over generations, adapt and evolve to remain resistant. Sooner rather than later our own transmission of ills onto this Earth will exact a price we will not be able to afford. Whether it will be mankind creating its own demise or the planet around it generating a catalytic series of events makes little difference.

As for the "Rise of the Third World", I do not agree with our esteemed Cervus canadensis; I am no friend of the third world; I've been to too many of its bits and bobs to ever champion its causes. I hold with whoever said that every people get the government they deserve.

[morriswalters 16]

Barbarossa, here's a link to that article.  The expectations of the Chinese population will take care of them. The Leadership there will improve conditions as expectations improve.  In terms of trash produced it's a function of intelligence. The minute that we gained control over the biological processes which have always controlled populations in the past this was ordained.  If we stop pushing outward then we better figure out how biology controls us so that we can become rational.  Because currently we aren't, at least in how we deal with global problems.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I've been ignoring the point, but Barbarossa is right.  Nature does not have volition, so the idea of a punishment is not on.  Consequences may result from abuse of the kernel provided by nature, but nature is very tolerant, and all encompassing.  However, we are making an awful mess, and we either have to clean up our act, or the consequences will be serious.  Famine will be the least of our problems.

Nature is already at work making things less good for people.  When I was a kid there were very few people with allergies, especially to foods.  You can't attribute all the problems that are around right now to advancement of medical science.  Where did this general allergy to pulse, come from?  I know a kid, if he is still alive, to is allergic to any form of pulse including peas as well as peanuts.  A third-hand knife that the first user used for peanut butter, and was subsequently used by two others for making sandwiches using butter, sent him into anaphylactic shock.  I had a boss once who was allergic to grass.  He drank beer while sucking on Ventolin.  Maybe in my day, these people died early and mysterious deaths, but there seem to be an awful lot of them around.  Is the genome shifting away from the pulse and grass eaters?  Vegans beware.

[DocRorlach 25]

I find it most peculiar that folks would grant an unspecific entity, such as a deity, not just volition but design, yet when it comes to nature, we want to think of chance and luck. A planet on which at one point in the very distant past life began by chance has since evolved into a complex organism, made up of different eco-systems. It is not that far-fetched an idea; just broaden your scale. Most people would not think of their own bodies possessing volition outside of the brain, and yet it does have just that, and no being could survive without it. A planet full of life is not different, only in this case we are the cancer.

Barbarossa, I grant that malice does not come into it because it would require the one thing the human race is incapable of: working together as a species. I reckon the choice of "punishment" is borne of a personal wish for correction, perchance even rehabilitation.

Moose: You can expand that to tons of other illnesses and afflictions that are of recent times. It was not that long ago that some smug medics declared that they had erradicated this or that viral disease, only for it to make a comeback. Still, I am thinking scale again, and there the increase of vulcanic activity, the increase in hurricanes & tornados, the fact that the Pacific experienced more tsunamis in the last three decades than in the preceding century - all these cannot be attributed to global warming alone.

Duke: reading the article on Hawking's warning reminded me of the facts contributing to our being stuck here. Short of inventing Pratchett's Space Elevator, we are not going anywhere but down.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

A rather pessimistic attitude, Doc.  Do you really think the glass is almost empty?  Or does it just need a refill?

One of the biggest problems we have now is that all those guys have spent all that money on rockets for the last hundred years and nobody has found anything really fundamental since Einstein discovered the photoelectric effect.  They are still exploiting that one.

If there is going to be a general crash, we deserve it.  We have become arrogant, and know-it-alls.  Just because the great Albert said we can't exceed the speed of light, doesn't mean there isn't a way to make an end-run around that barrier.  The problem is that you have to have billions and billions of joules in a portable package, according to the current set of mavens.  Someone needs to invent a Tardis.  If the string theory bunch get their act together, we might even get it.  On the other hand, they might get to try something that vaporizes the whole works.

This standing pat is driving me round the bend.

[DocRorlach 25]

With the ascendence of modern man the glass got tipped over rather quickly. If I were inclined to believe our eminent scientist - who, incidentally, do not seem to believe each other all that much - I would also believe that everything is eventually finite. Including mankind, the pinhead of a planet we are dancing on, and the remainder of the universe.

Instead, I simply take a life-time's worth of largely incidental observations of changes: now I am certain that, if not everything, at least mankind and its habitat are finite. I do not need theories that th sun is going to switch itself off in 5 bllion years or so. What would be the point? If it is indeed true it is ineveitable. If its not - who's going to be around to disprove the stipulation? No, just the seemingly miniscule changes I can see all around me, having travelled roughly accross 3/4 of the globe. No need to go go the Amazon or Borneo; we've encroached on everything at home just as well. Add to that the various nuts and their scenarios of how the few sensible warnings science offers are all lies; of how we continue to squander not just resources but our own health, individual and social, the only conclusion is a demise of mankind itself.

Maybe someone, somewhere in time & space, will try again and perchance make a better job of it. We certainly will not.

As for Albert's (or his wife's) theory: it is just that. We still have no means to prove or disprove it because we have no way of sending that brother out for a 100 years or so to find out if he really comes back younger than his earth-bound twin. That others have come up with "mathematical models" cementing Einsteins assumptions means nothing. These are just more theories. As they say: proof is in the eating, not the receipe.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Ah, good old special relativity and its clocks.....  Who cares indeed?  I would be a lot more impressed if someone, somewhere were able to send/take something to, say, the moon and back in the next 10 minutes.  I am sick to death of the 'we can't becauses.

Science hasn't done a damned thing except refinements since the great Albert set up a new set of rules to play with.

We have spent centuries playing with Sir Isaac's laws, and we really haven't gotten anywhere with reaction engines, now have we?  All they've done is played with the chemistry set, and done a little physics.  Some of it would be impossible without Albert's later words on photons and electrons.

Let's see, Isaac died in 1727, and Albert died in 1955.  The interval is 228 years.  Does this imply that we should not expect anything to happen until around 2134?  What a shame if true.  I got 2134 by adding 228 to 1906.  Good people do their best work when they are young and untrammeled by professors who 'know more' than they do.

And let's face it, Newton and his contemporaries were the first that had done anything systematic since the Greeks.  We talk about the rapid pace of progress, but it isn't.  In fact, we are in the doldrums, trying to figure out what the last guys were really on about.  Shroedinger and all that are just a side effect.  I hope the string theory boys (and girls) will put paid to the event horizon thing, and we can forget about black holes, white holes, and FTL altogether and get on with the next thing.  None of us will be alive to see what happens because the next major breakthrough is at least a century away.

[DocRorlach 25]

My dear Wapiti - you put way to much hope into science when in reality chance and incident have played a far greater role in the "advances" of science. Even Albert Einstein had to admit (post-humously and unwillingly) that if he had married someone else, he might not necessarily have come up with his most constantly quoted formula.

Besides, the researchof the past had the great advantage of being concentrated in a handful of individuals who did seldom have the constraint of the profit motive, or the shackles of organized research. As a scientist today you may well sprout a new theory, but by the time you echoed its first few words, hundreds of your so-called fellow scientists will have shouted "humbug".

So, your calculated target of 2134 appears a tad optimistic. Even provided, of course, that there is anyone around in that year to be able to spell "science" or "research"

The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.

  -

Nikola Tesla

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

There you go quoting the father of electrical networks who has been dead since 1943.  Tesla was probably the last of the great, clear thinkers who wasn't constrained by a government budget and a bunch of second rate second guessers.  Another contemporary was Thomas Edison, as was George Westinghouse, speaking of alternating current.

Do you know the story of Dr. Steinmetz and the generator?  This gent was one of the great engineers who worked for a small outfit making water-wheel generators.  Edison tried to lure him to GE, but Steinmetz was quite happy where he was.  To get him, Edison bought his company.

Westinghouse had a generator project, and were in trouble.  They knew that if they could get Dr. Steinmetz to look at their generator he could probably diagnose it.  But he worked for their hottest competitor, GE.  So George Westinghouse, himself, called up Edison and begged to have Steinmetz consult on their problem.  Edison agreed as long as Westinghouse would pay the fees submitted.

Then Dr.. Steinmetz came to the Westinghouse testing shed, and had them fire up the generator.  He walked around it, listening carefully.  Then, he had them shut it down, walked over to the casing and made a large X with a piece of chalk he took from his pocket.  "There is an error in the winding right there", he said.  And he left.

Sure enough, this was the case, the generator was fixed, and they were back in the game.

Steinmetz sent his bill for $10,000.  In those days this was like billing for $1,000,000 today.  Westinghouse's accountant wouldn't pay the bill unless it was itemized, so they sent Steinmetz a letter demanding an explanation.  Steinmetz reply was a classic:

Box of Chalk ... $1.00

Knowing what to do with it ...$9,999

This story was endemic in GE when I worked for them.

You are right, my widely travelled friend, the independent thinker's day is gone.  Creativity is killed by the kind of "scientific" environment we now have.

[DocRorlach 25]

The irony in our current discussion is this: it is quite possible that I am going to work for said research community next month.

Being usually  a johnny-come-lately when it comes to news, I just learned that the "fireworks" I saw in the sky a fe nights ago where from a passing meteor storm, and that some less pretty and far more serious ones are heading our way in 2046, as the result of a passing comet. That one could result in a shower of rocks, remains of what makes it through the burn-up in our atmosphere.

It appears that some of this space debris could be large enough to cause massive tsunamis if they hit the ocean, or serious damage if they come down on populated areas. And the "science community" is in a hundred different minds about the when, where, how big, maybe not at all scenarios of this one.

Damn shame I am going to miss that spectacle.

On a side note: This article might be worth reading in the NYT:

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I am glad to hear that at least one clear thinking cynic will be among the confused hand-wringers trying to figure out how to stop the sky from falling.  I hope you will be in a position to weed out some of the henny pennies.

The NYT article just said the obvious.  I've seen this coming since about 1945 when winters started easing off.  The basic problem with most people in authority today is that they haven't lived long enough to compare how things were when they were younger.  The implication of all this flooding, since it seems to be mostly rainfall, is that insolation is higher enough now to suck up more water in the atmosphere then dump it in the usual places, but a lot more than "usual".  Nature is behaving normally.  People are entering an Alice in Wonderland Caucus Race.  Maybe all this water will wash some of the heads out of the sand.

[DocRorlach 25]

Eh, being presumptious, I figure the quoted cynic is to be me? In which case I certainly will not be around in 2046, except in form of ashes. And - if you truly (and personally) watched the winter of 1945, neither might you be among the receptionists..

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Quite right, old boy.  I was quarentined at my grandmother's with Chicken Pox.  I am a 1937 model, late 3rd quarter.  Just barely a Virgo (right on the cusp, ouch!)

If that is the nearest doomsday, I am not planning to be about to watch.  My atoms should be recombining in the great lakes somewhere by then.

[DocRorlach 25]

Small wonder the antlers are that big. And here I thought myself the oldest bastard at ST! Just get beaten by a nose-lenght - by a moose, no less..

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I think Meg is over 80.  However, getting on with world affairs, this from the Guardian (UK(

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/16/taliban-couple-stoned-afghanistan

The Taliban are still very much pro-Sharia.  They seem to have minds like a steel trap (rusted shut).  The idea of treating with barbarians is a non-starter, and the sooner everyone cottons on to this, the simpler it will be to just shoot them on sight.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[fukuda 351]

An Iranian F-4 jet fighter crashed near Bushehr's nuclear facility... Good lord, they may even manage to nuclear bomb themselves this way...

And more unrelated but still bad news, there's been a car bombing in South Ossetia this morning and an explosion in a russian coffee near the ossetian border some hours ago, bad news in the caucasus are usually pretty dangerous...

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Originally posted by: fukuda

An Iranian F-14 jet fighter crashed near Bushehr's nuclear facility... Good lord, they may even manage to nuclear bomb themselves this way...quote>

I think we told those kids not to play with matches, eh? 

If there was a nuclear explosion in Iran, you know perfectly well what a propaganda coup it would be for them.  They would blame it on Israel, of course, and now have a perfect excuse to stir up more trouble than they have in the past.  The only hope is that Aminajad (or however it is spelled) is visiting the facility at the time along with a gaggle of his top clerics.

[DocRorlach 25]

While I would like to state that I am against any inhumane punishment (and that includes some countries prison systems, Guantanamo Bay, death penalties, etc.) I am not so firm on the term barbarian. Not because of the Taliban per se, but because it is a term the usage of which depends on the culture it is aimed at - not on our own perceptions. There are still plenty of societies today which label us (western cultures) as something akin to barbarians. The Japanese term Gajin (foreigner), I've been told, has its roots in a similarily descriptive term. And it was not that long ago that the Chinese thought of the arriving British traders as barbarians.

Nor are the days of corporal punishments such as Iran and the Taliban like to inflict are that far in our past. Flogging and similar sentences were still routine in the 19th century; even today, Singapore - an otherwise thoroughly modern society - still has canning on its law books, just as Britishschools used it up until the 1960ties.

We may well cite the 21st century, but other than our technocratic gadgets little has changed in the past few centuries. Globally, morals and the minds that sustain them are quite frequently stuck in the dark ages - and not just in the far-flung reaches of the third world.

[fukuda 351]

The Japanese term Gajin (foreigner), I've been told, has its roots in a similarily descriptive term. quote>

The word "gaijin" itself has been deemed as no longer politically correct and a new one is being used officially: "gaikokujin" (the character for "country" has been inserted and it now reads as "person(s) from an outside country" instead of "person(s) from outside").

This kind of noun morphing depending on how badly the term is misused is pretty usual in Japan, the same happened with the noun meaning "China". The word "gaijin" and its character-reversed sibling "jingai" (literally "outside of person", it reads as "inhuman") are already being used extensively by xenophobes which is the main reason why a new word had to be adopted...

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Everyone has a viewpoint on barbarity and barbarians.  It is inescapable.  However, anyone who commits a barbaric act, such as stoning someone to death, is a barbarian, even if he is also the Dalai Lama, Gautama Buddha, or Mother Teresa.  Not only does this inflict great pain and fear on the victims, but it provides a public show for the rest of the bloodthirsty barbarians who watch, participate, and otherwise to nothing to stop it.

Speaking of gaijin, what about the Chinese term Quai Lo, which means about the same thing.  You also want to watch what you say, especially in Mandarin after reading some of the James Clavell stuff.  Tai Pan means number one boy in a house of ill repute.  Apparently the correct term is Lo Pan.  In Italian, the term straniero means a guy who is not from here (stranger) and they mean someone not from the immediate area.  Of course the actual term 'barbarian' means bearded one, and comes from Latin of the Roman times when men were clean shaven.  They meant what Italian calls straniero now.  There were Romans and barbarians.  In those days 'civis Romanus sum' really meant something.

If the so-called Muslim radical throwbacks want to revive nasty methods of execution, what's wrong with crucifixion?  Very humiliating, and if it is not too hot and the vultures aren't too aggressive, it could take more than a day to die of asphyxiation hanging on your shoulder girdle like that.  Naked, too, so it is extra humiliating.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Here we go again.  This smacks of Hitler's Germany that also deported (and probably murdered) the Roma people.  I don't normally cite CNN, but this article is worth a note.

The Roma (Romany or Gypsy people) are displaced persons who have been kicked from pillar to post for centuries.  France is deporting them to Romania, which is not necessarily their country of origin.  There has been a large diaspora of these people for a long time, and they are recorded over many centuries in European history.  At one point, they called themselves simply "the Rom".  Their language, at one time, at least, was not any regular European language, but of Indo-European origin, similar to Hindi, and Finnish.  Romania's language is as near to pure, modern Latin as you can get, even with the funny diacritic marks and so on.

My guess at the origin of these people is that they were peasants dispossessed to give their lands to Roman Legionnaires as part of the reward system for disbanded armies in the times of the Roman Republic.  Since they were not citizens of Rome, the Romans did whatever they liked with them.  In this case, just dispossed and expelled them from their lands.  This might be entirely wrong, since I have seen no writing on this subject, but I feel it is a pretty good guess.  Believe me, the Roman historians would have been very silent on this. 

If you look them up on Wiki, start with "Roma People" and you can chase your tail from there.  The articles are very sparse, and need confirmation.  They are the "neglected ones", the "blamed ones", the paupers of Europe.  The Wiki articles seem to point to India, but how they got to Europe is a mystery.  I like my guess, best.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Meg IS NOT over 80! You better run and hide, now, before she finds you. you are thinking of her mother, who is lower 80s.  quote>

Actually, my mother turned 90 a few months ago.

I, however, am young enough to be the daughter of our moose friend.

Thank you fro bringing the conversation back to topic, though!  quote>

yes, back on topic

France's expulsion of the Roma people is another instance of a country reacting to illegal immigration.   I do wonder what the statute of limitions is on illegal immigration.   It could be argued that everyone on North America who is not of Native American descent is an illegal immigrant or a descendent of one.  but there is no practical solution to that even if people believed it was true.

[DocRorlach 25]

Without immigration, legal or otherwise, the USA cannot function. Never could. Aside from the "original immigration" in the 17th and 18th century, North America (including Canada here), always required the influx of foreigners, quite regardless of point of origin, nationality, creed, or race. And this is still true today.

In my six years working on both coast as well as the southern states of Arizona and Georgia, two things were patently obvious. One: without immigrants from Latin America, the construction industry in those states would crumble to dust; two: there is nobody among the other ethnic groups willing to take up these jobs.

In France the situation is radically different: it is not the illegal but the legal immigrants that have become the problem, largely through no fault of their own. During the boom years thee people, mostly from former colonies, were almost invited in. The moment the jobs dried up, they were shunned to the periphery of the larger cities were ghettos were quick to develop. The summer of 2010 was one of the few in recent decades when these ghettos did not erupt in violence.

Different again is the problem of the Roma. Better known as (although not necessarily synonymous with) Gypsies, they are unwanted just about everywhere. Swaths of Romania and Slovakia are often pointed out as their "homeland", but that's like saying all Jewish people come from Israel. France is simply making an example of these groups, and a very small one at that, because it has no means to deal with the real problem.

Germany, a decade or so ago, tried the same with Turks. Also invited in en mass since the early Sixties, they are now the largest minority there. In a futile attempt to spur voluntary repatriation, the government offered as much as DM 10.000 per family if they left under their own steam, not realizing that more than half of the local Turks were so localized, they had no real ties to the old country. Their kids were German by birth, their families had long ago followed them here.

Indonesia did forced resettlements of its populace under Sukarno in numbers of hundreds of thousands. But of course, that was so far away, and concerned "only" locals being moved from different islands to Sumatra, nobody in the West as much as lifted an eyebrow.

China still does it, albeit in a much slicker manner these days, with regions such as Tibet, by importing perceived loyal citizens into troublesome locations via incentives.

The recent French affair will not really solve anything or go anywhere. The numbers they can legally deport are a drop of water on a very hot stove. For every single Roma they deport, three will have crossed the borders in the other direction before boarding of the government plane has been completed.

After all, France - every 10 years - hosts the pinnacle of Roma festivities: the Black Madonna Festival in St. Marie-de-la-Mer.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The Roma are pretty self-sufficient, all things considered.  They roll with the punches like a whack-a-mole and just pop up again, and again.  They are the exemplar of a wandering people, yet they never seem to seek a home.

Mr. Sarkozy has simply skimmed the top of his barrel of worms, and I hope one bites him.

---

And to brighten our day, this from CBC News.

The interesting thing is where did this nut job get his automatic weapon (had it left from his job he was just fired out of?).  I don't think much of the Phillipine police security people if that's the case.  In any case, automatic weapons have only one use:  Killing people.  Every effort should be made everywhere to get stuff like this out of the hands of both the public at large, and criminals in general.  Penalties for unauthorized possession of one of these should be the equivalent of a life sentence, even on a first offense.  Sentencing like this is draconian, but the weapons are miniature WMD's, and should be kept from the wrong hands. 

{fantasy} Judge:  You had an AK-47?  Well, then, 47 years, no parole.  (/fantasy}

I know it is impossible, but life should be made as difficult as possible for people who possess these things.

---

Dateline Afghanistan:  Karzai bans private security outfits.  Winnipeg Free Press report raises questions about how we will exit our troops considering our ongoing obligations.  If we can't use private outfits, we'll have to do something else, like assign some "peace keepers"?

[DocRorlach 25]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

I've steered clear of the Roma discussion because it is so much more difficult to understand that we are told. Europe actually has a really good understanding of the Roma, but people in the US (actually, in the New World) do not.

The Roma are a traveling people (nomadic, although this has lost its charm as a term), and citizens of Europe (I should say: of the countries in which they were born). What is known is that they come from the East. India is a common source, and I don't necessarily disbelieve it. However, I think that "India" is used in a general sense (Prester John, anyone?). As far as we know, they came from Chechnya, or Georgia, or Kazakhstan. Who knows? Only historians really care, everyone else just has to deal with the current reality.

Now what is that current reality? Well, the Roma have a culture all their own. They have reputations as swindlers, as thieves, and as con men. Sadly, this is mostly true. Children learn how to steal at a very young age. Pickpocketing is second nature. There are set ups where children and women beg on corners, play accordions, and do small entertainments for passers-by. The money is collected and turned in to the men, who control nearly every facet of life for the "tribe". Many tribes engage in prostitution, as well.

So, you can see why I hesitate in areas like this. There is so much to consider that there really is no answer. Those Roma who are deported have blatantly indicated they will pocket the money from France to leave, but they will simply return again, get the money, and be deported again, ad absurdem. Sarkozy could have certainly come up with a better plan than this. But, he didn't, and he just might regret that.

Barbarossaquote>

Barbarossa: A clever Frenchman once stated that "all generalizations are dangerous - including this one". I cannot claim to have met any Roma in recent years, but my  memory of my staying with them for a week, back in the late Sixties, during the Black Madonna festival in southern France, has no trace of any of your take on them.

What I do know, from having worked with Slovaks, Roumanians, and of course the general take of Northern europe on these nomads, is that their outlandish and often anachronistic ways make them easy targets for summary hate (especially among eastern Europeans) and distrust wherever they go.

I am sure there are those among them who act just as you say; but then that is hardly confined to any given race. "Professional" beggars are still common in London, just as are other street cons: walking through busy North London streets it is not uncommon to see Africans resorting to the century-old card monte game - with usually plenty of takers.

These cons are - in my mind - no different from what goes on in any casino, except that the presentation is better and thus not as repugnant. And as Moose stated, the Roma are the last "western" wanderers, and the only difference between them now and the cart trains across the US Plains in the 18th and 19th century is the fact that they do not seek a home. A trait that finds plenty of semblance in Europe's New Age groups which park their caravans en mass across the British Isles until they get evicted again - and again.

Sarkozy's government practically invited the Roma to cheat: given the impossibility of returning to the pre-Schengen days of closed European borders, the idea of offering people money to leave a region (countries in europe really only exist in the minds of politicians) with no means of barring their re-entry is, of course, idiotic.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

And on the home front, this exciting piece of international news.  Yes, folks, those same nice fellas in the red coats you saw in the Musical Ride also act to keep us all safe.  Canada's anti-terror squad, the Gendarmerie Royale Canadien (GRC) have done the job without having a new "homeland security" agency.  Not only that, but we get convictions.

By the way, GRC is often pronounced "Grab a Cop".  It is actually French for Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP).  I am proud of them, but not all of them.