Phillippbos Tutorial Help and Feedback

[phillippbo 54]

As promised, this is the feedback and help thread for my tutorial.  Anything you're confused about, need more information on, or what-have-you, post it here.  I will be checking this thread every day, and will answer questions the best that I can.

 

I do ask that any posts to this thread remain related to the tutorial only, please.  Also, try to be as specific as possible about anything you need help with, because I won't hesitate to ask for more information https://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/22.gif>.

 

Please do not get offended if I answer a question by referring you to a page of the tutorial.  I spent quite a bit of time making sure that everything was covered as well as possible, and there are probably some things I overlooked, but I think I covered most of the basic points pretty well.

 

Enough of my preaching, got a question, ask away!

 

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[xcalbier 43]

Hi .and its great to have someone to refer to .
first let me ask. Have you made tutorial ? Just want to be sure im not missing something as I have printed out ever thing I could find on BAT and MOdding.
I now know most of what i need in order to mod and use bat and have had great results . But the next thing im going to be trying is making a growible church that has a coustom Query as in when you click on it the query will come up as number of worshipers and a few other things as well .
I had no trouble getting it to grow but its kind of dum to have a church coming up with jobs.
Now at this point im not asking for help yet just letting you see were im at with mods.
anyway Thanks for your time .https://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/21.gif>

[+Guest]

Phil you done a tutorial I didn't know.What is it and where I can find it?.Thanxhttps://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/1.gif>

[phillippbo 54]

[bEGINQUOTE]

3/25/2004 11:13:39 AM[/quoteDATE]

[/quoteAUTHOR]

Phil you done a tutorial I didn't know.What is it and where I can find it?.Thanxhttps://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/1.gif>[/quoteMESSAGE][/bEGINQUOTE]

What do you mean you didn't know? It was your fault I had to make it in the first place.

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(just kidding)

The tutorial is accessible on the home page of Simtropolis. It's a button that says something like The Essential BAT Tutorial by Phillippbo, right underneath the big Simcity4 Omnibus button.

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[+Guest]

Holy crap Phil you did it.I thought this was dead horse now I gotta buy ink for my printer.You da man Phil.https://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/1.gif>

[phillippbo 54]

[bEGINQUOTE]

3/25/2004 10:47:35 AM[/quoteDATE]

[/quoteAUTHOR]

Hi .and its great to have someone to refer to .
first let me ask. Have you made tutorial ? Just want to be sure im not missing something as I have printed out ever thing I could find on BAT and MOdding.
I now know most of what i need in order to mod and use bat and have had great results . But the next thing im going to be trying is making a growible church that has a coustom Query as in when you click on it the query will come up as number of worshipers and a few other things as well .
I had no trouble getting it to grow but its kind of dum to have a church coming up with jobs.
Now at this point im not asking for help yet just letting you see were im at with mods.
anyway Thanks for your time .https://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/21.gif>[/quoteMESSAGE][/bEGINQUOTE]

Yes indeedy, I have made a tutorial. It's on the homepage of Simtropolis as described a couple of posts back.

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[Chappington 131]

Wow! This tutorial has encouraged me to start using the BAT soon. You did a VERY good job. https://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/24.gif> You covered everything in there, it's just one place to go instead of lurking around the forums for it. Great job! 

[Caliban 2]

I've just read through your tutorial and have to congratulate you on it. Its very thorough and clear. https://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/9.gif>

---

Now for a little feedback. Hopefully you will find this useful, and maybe feel like adding some of it into your tutorial.


First a few points on textures:

gMax can be made to display the textures better by turning on Texture Correction, found under the rightclick viewport menu.

Although 2-sided textures are displayed in the viewports the BAT renderer does not appear to be able to handle them. As such it seems irrelevant whether people turn it on as long as they know it doesn't work. (I know you say don't use them in the tutorial, I just thought you maight say they don't render so people know)

You probably know this but you can select the gizmo of the UVW modifier and apply any of the transforms to it for moving, scaling etc.

Some elementary bitmap editing can be made in the Material Editor. In the Output section of a Bitmap there are some controls. Output Amount controls mixing with the material diffuse colour. RGB Offset and Level adjust brightness (thats an oversimlification but playing with it will explain better).



Modelling points:

Instead of copying your walls and changing the extrude to a negative number use the mirror tool.

If you make an instance of an object instead of a copy you can break the association. Select the object. In the command panel under the modifier stack there are 5 icons. Click the third one (2 arrows pointing at a circle). This is the Make Unique button. The object is no longer an instance.

In your tutorial where you show an example of an extrusion failure due to unwelded vertices, instead of deleting the Extrude modifier click the editable spline below it in the modifier stack. Then click the Show End Result On/Off Toggle button (the second icon below the modifier stack). Now you can select your vertices and weld. This will immediately show you if the weld was successful in a shaded view.
Of course this is more useful if the shape is more complex but even so you don't always have to delete a modifier to make changes below it.

A faster way to make your awning. Create your arc as before. Add an Edit Spline modifier and select the Spline sub-object level. Click on the arc to select it. In the Geometry section of the rollout you will see that that the Outline button is now available. Type in the required figure such as 1.8 from your example and apply an Extrude modifier. No welding is needed as it is still one object. This also ensures the thickness is constant tangentally.



Interface:

Zoom Extents - zooms out the view to fit all objects in the scene in the viewport, including objects hidden by category, this means a fairly large zoom out due to the lights and camera rig in BAT. Objects that are properly hidden are not included.
Zoom Extents Selected - zooms the view to fit the selected object (this also works for sub-object selections). This is my most often used zoom method (well I use mouse wheel for general zooming) because it also sets the rotation centre of the viewport to the object centre making Arc Rotate that much easier.
Zoom Extents All / Zoom Extents Selected All is exactly the same except it works on all 4 views (unless they are special such as a camera).

As you model mathmatically, like me, you may find this useful. If you have a box that is 5.92m tall and you want to increase it by 3.487m you can simply type r3.487 (the r stand for relative) into its height parameter and let gMax do the math for you (subtract with r-number), I think this works in any text entry field as you as you use a valid number otherwise it will ignore it.



Misc:

HSV is an alternative colour model to RGB. It stands for Hue, Saturation, Value.


Your buildings are looking great too! Keep up the good work. https://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/1.gif>

[phillippbo 54]

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions.

The reason that I explained everything the way I did is that it's mostly the way that I model, and that I tried to think of the simplest way to explain things as possible. Many of the concepts that you mentioned I would have a difficult time explaining to a beginner, but are valid points. I had no idea about the relative height thing - see, learn something new every day!

Also, there are many things I did (like deleting the extrude modifier) because it's not that I know it won't work (I know that you can change just about anything except the original spline - sometimes causes issues and sometimes doesn't), but because I believe in being thorough. Also, in my career (ugh, why would anyone make a career of tech support?) I can't begin to count how many times something that shouldn't do/affect such and such does. I think it's much better to eliminate as many potential problems as possible as you go along, rather than find out later something didn't work and then have to backtrack until you find the tiny little thing that's causing trouble (and it's even worse when it shouldn't be a problem).

But I always listen to all feedback and suggestions. Sometimes I use them, sometimes I don't, but they're always appreciated!

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[Caliban 2]

I'm glad you didn't take my comments as criticism https://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/9.gif> (I fear that some people would)

I agree that most points are a little advanced for your tutorial, but I do feel that texture correction and the outline function of splines would be useful to everyone.

[deadwoods 542]

Just found it. I was looking on the forum, I didn't realise it was hidden in the OmniBus https://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/9.gif>.

I've just had a quick look at the Lighting page and it's got the level of detail needed, i.e. good for both beginners and those with a bit of exeprience (I didn't know how to stop light shining through wallshttps://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/2.gif>). From what I've seen it's a quality document.

I'll add a link to it to my checklist, and then read through in detail tonight. https://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/1.gif>

[deadwoods 542]

OK phillippbo, I've been through the first three sections (through Creating Walls B). It's brillianthttps://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/16.gif>. I'm particularly impressed with the tone and the images with markup.

A few technical comments:
1. Getting Started
- Perhaps there should be a brief comment on terminology, gmax vs. BAT. What each one is, and how you refer to them (you use BAT to refer to both gmax and the BAT toolkit).

2. Creating Walls A
- When you talk about the naming standards you use, you may want to mention what occurs when you merge one gmax object with another. If you have the same object names, you'll get (confusing) duplicates in the object list. If you have duplicate texture names, you'll have to rename some (or potentially replace a texture).
- The screen shot walls7 (or wallsa7) seems to come before the relevant text. You're talking about creating a single wall and then you show a figure with all walls done. I did a quick what the? thinking maybe there was some text missing. Maybe it should be moved down a bit or preceeded with something like now we need to create more windows to look like the following, we'll do this next.

3. Creating Walls B
- Same sort of comment with screenshot wallsb15. It seems to come before the text describing it.

Otherwise the first three sections look great. I'll keep working through.

[phillippbo 54]

OK, let me see what I can do:

1. I did mention on the Getting Started page that I use gmax and BAT as interchangable terms, but I might not have called enough attention to it, sorry about that.

2. I didn't think it would be relevant to mention the merging files part there. I really didn't mention that at all, come to think of it. I guess the reason I didn't think about saying anything about it is that the objects that I merge (roof junk, doors, etc) will never have to be re-named because I follow the same naming scheme on every model. So, Roof Junk - HVAC Mechanicals (or something to that effect, it's been a long day) won't have to replace anything by the same name in the scene. Also, I've never had a problem with the textures, although that might be because they're not re-used and I always fine-tune the textures on the object itself and not in the Material Editor.

I also looked all over the Creating Walls Section A, and couldn't find what you were referring to. Can you be more specific as to the text itself?

3. I think the screenshot you're referring to is the Array Tool shot? I meant for it to come before the text describing it, because I find it much easier myself to see the shot and then see the description. Was it confusing? If so, then let me know what you think a better way would be to do it.

I love feedback and suggestions, but my only problem is trying to respond to them without sounding stuck up. I hope what I wrote above didn't come off that way...

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[deadwoods 542]

That's fine. I'm interleaving reading your doc with work, so it's been a bit disjointed. I stand corrected on the first point. It's at the top and the level of detail is appropriate for the intro.

WRT to the naming, you're right it's probably not appropriate to the level of the tutorial.

WRT to the image (walls7) it's above the paragraph beginning What kind of office building would it be with just ....

I was in the Reserve for a few years (too many!). We were a bit more politically correct using the term Keep It Simple, Soldier.

[SimGoober 2,350]

Phippbo, first a major THANK YOU!  ,

 

 second, THANKS Again!!

 

You hinted in an above post that you do something in tech support for a job, it shows.  and you must be good at it.

 

I've been learning BAT through various methods, and making progress.  I was amazed at some of the simple things I had missed, that I found in your tutorial.  The whole moving things by the X,Y or Z at the bottom, wow that is a time and effort saver.

 

I went through everything step by step, and had 98% success.  The lighting part didn't work for me, but I think I missed something.  I'll do it again in a day or two to see if I can figure out where I went wrong.  The spots aren't doing anything.

 

Also, I found a minor typo.  I did this yesterday, and I think I remember correctly: On the HVAC unit, there is a step where you move a box up (The bigger one I think), and you say to move it up 2.5.  I believe you meant .25 .  At 2.5 it hovers above the unit.  Like I said, minor!

 

If you decide to do any others, they will be a must read!

[phillippbo 54]

deadwoods:

I think what threw me off in finding the screenshot the first time was that you said something about all the walls being done. I stared at the screen for about twenty minutes or so, scrolling up and down that page, trying to find it and thinking I was overlooking something. https://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/22.gif>

For now, I think I'm going to leave it the way it is. I can't think of any better way to demonstrate it without having at least two different screenshots for that one paragraph. But, if there's a lot of people saying that it confused them, then I'll definately change it.

SimGoober:

You're quite welcome! I hadn't even noticed that typo (and nobody that I had helping me with it did either). It should be changed at some point today (I hope).

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[simcity4crazyguy 24]

Finally, I found the thread https://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/1.gif>.

Well, I did everything you told me to, and here's what happened:

(Before)

I put it on X=0, Y=0, but it didnt work. I checked your tips on the last page of the tutorial, but nothing. Do you know what happened?

 

[phillippbo 54]

Try going back into the BAT and delete the LODs (unhide all, select all the LODs and delete), then go to the BAT button, Parameters Rollout and Refit LODs, and re-export.

Let me know if that did it...

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[Yakuzi 0]

Date: 3/25/2004 4:43:37 PM

Author: Caliban

Modelling points: Instead of copying your walls and changing the extrude to a negative number use the mirror tool.

I used to do this too, but with me it messes up the textures on the mirrored object, so I'd go for Phillippbo's method, or rotate clone the object..... Look at the roof in the example to understand what I'm talking about:

non mirrored

mirrored

@Simcity4CrazyGuy

It looks like your building is below the x/y plane. To fix this make sure the basis of your building is fitted right ontop the x/y plane, or you'll have an underground building.... Refit LOD's after you've moved your building just to make sure they're applied correctly.

@Phillippbo

I wish I had this tutorial 1.5 month ago , it would've saved me alot of time figuring all this stuff out. Still, it's really handy having this tutorial within handreach now if anything goes haywire. Anyway, GREAT JOB on the tutorial Phillipbo

[Caliban 2]

@Yakuzi

I guarantee that gMax can't be causing this texture problem.. I can't speak for the BAT renderer though as it seems to suffer a number of problems when rendering textures.
(It looks a little like you have 2 surfaces in the same plane which is causing the renderer problems but this is probably a coincidence)

Nice building btw

[simcity4crazyguy 24]

Well, I tried everything you guys told me, but nothing. heres a picture of the building in bat:

I think it's ok.. Thats before I refitted the LODS

Heres one in LE:

See? Its floating

[Caliban 2]

I can see a couple of problems:

Your building is not centred properly.. the lights all point at X:0, Y:0 which is your front entrance not building centre which will make placement difficult from above in LE.

Also you appear to have an object extending below the ground plane on the righthand side of the back view (its green).

It might be easier to tell if you repost your screenshot with the building visible in all 4 views.

[phillippbo 54]

simcity4crazyguy, did you check the troubleshooting page and try the stuff there?

 

 

------------EDIT----------

Caliban, the box that shows below the X/Y is supposed to be there.  In the tutorial, it's a power connector that I did like that to demonstrate to everybody that anything below X/Y in the BAT will be hidden below ground in SC4.

 

simcity4crazyguy, are you sure that you didn't move the Light & Cameras Rig when you moved the building?  If you're not sure, go to File >XRef Scene and delete whatever's there (that'll be the default lights & cameras), then on the BAT button Parameters rollout, click the Reset Lights & Cameras button to place it back in the scene and try a re-export.

[simcity4crazyguy 24]

Thanks! I did what you said (I also accidently clicked on high export) and it worked!!! My very own building is officially finished

[Yakuzi 0]

@SC4CG

Gratz!!!

 

@Caliban

I only came across this problem in the BAT, you're right... Still, people might have this same problem so now they know what causes it. I'll see if it messes up in Gmax too, although I doubt it will...

[phillippbo 54]

Good to hear!  I'm looking forward to seeing your creations.

 

Happy BATting!

 

[IVSTINIAN 0]

Greetings.

I have recently enjoyed your BAT Tutorial and found it very helpful. However, I have encountered a problem which was not discussed in either the tutorial or troubleshooting page(s):

In SC4 (Rush Hour) my buildings will not properly display the night lights.
I followed the instructions which your prescribed, and the night lights show properly in the preview of the BAT in gmax, and while it is rendering. However, in SC4 it just appears as it would in the day, except with no lights - dark. I did set the windows which I want lighted as nite, and properly installed the lights (once again, it showed properly while rendering). NOTE: I already have the latest version of the LE, BAT, SC4 Plug-In Manager, Patch(es), et cetera. I would be most grateful if you could enlighten me as to what can be done to improve the situation.

Many Thanks,
IVSTINIAN

[phillippbo 54]

[bEGINQUOTE]

4/17/2004 11:51:57 AM[/quoteDATE]

IVSTINIAN[/quoteAUTHOR]

Greetings. I have recently enjoyed your BAT Tutorial and found it very helpful. However, I have encountered a problem which was not discussed in either the tutorial or troubleshooting page(s): In SC4 (Rush Hour) my buildings will not properly display the 'night lights'. I followed the instructions which your prescribed, and the night lights show properly in the preview of the BAT in gmax, and while it is rendering. However, in SC4 it just appears as it would in the day, except with no lights - dark. I did set the windows which I want lighted as 'nite', and properly installed the lights (once again, it showed properly while rendering). NOTE: I already have the latest version of the LE, BAT, SC4 Plug-In Manager, Patch(es), et cetera. I would be most grateful if you could enlighten me as to what can be done to improve the situation. Many Thanks, IVSTINIAN[/quoteMESSAGE][/bEGINQUOTE]

Ok, so if you do have the patch:

1.  Was it defined as a building or a prop?  If the it was described as a prop (in the PM), then if it's too close to the edge of the lot it won't light up.

2.  If it was a building, are you sure the lot is powered?

3.  Have you tried toggling night and day (flip back and forth between them a few times)?

4.  Sometimes you have to give it a few Sim months before it lights up.

Let me know what happens!

[IVSTINIAN 0]

Greetings.

I have already ensured that the conditions which you specified are met.

The building WAS designated as a building and NOT a prop.
I DO have the latest patch.
YES the building IS powered.
YES I toggled night and day.
YES several months (sim time) has passed. (Over 10 years)

I have noticed one other peculiarity, the cars for the lot appear at night, not during the day; as if the sims were going to work at night. I find this peculiar because all other businesses are closed for the night and have no cars in their parking lots.

Thank you for your support.

Regards,
IVSTINIAN

[phillippbo 54]

[bEGINQUOTE]

4/20/2004 3:39:08 PM[/quoteDATE]

IVSTINIAN[/quoteAUTHOR]

I have noticed one other peculiarity, the cars for the lot appear at night, not during the day; as if the sims were going to work at night. I find this peculiar because all other businesses are closed for the night and have no cars in their parking lots.
[/quoteMESSAGE][/bEGINQUOTE]

Hmmmm...maybe there's some shady dealings going on at BAT Tutorial, Inc? Just kidding, couldn't resist.

As far as the night lighting goes, you did say that you added the word nite with no spaces (or quotes) to the beginning of the objects' names? If you did, try re-defining it as a park, then plopping it down in the center of something like a 6x6 or 10x10 park to see if it lights up. If it does, then it must either be something overlooked in the PM, or that for some reason it might be too close to the edge? If that doesn't work, try just a simple re-export (sometimes it'll have multiple instances of the same model, and sometimes it just overwrites the older one - if it just overwrites the old version it may just fix whatever the problem was). If that doesn't work, try going to the BAT button, and checking the Enable box next to nightlighting for each window you want lit, then re-export. If that still doesn't work, then try deleting your .SC4Model, .SC4Desc, and .SC4Lot files associated with this model, re-export, re-define, re-LE, and test it to see if anything changes. If all else fails, try the Save As/Merge method discussed on the troubleshooting page.

If even that doesn't work, then let me know and I'll see what I can come up with...