BAT for Max 3.0 is out!

[toxicpiano 125]

Just to let you know (I don't know if there will be an official thread on it here) it's out and available here: https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=1992 I hope noone minds, I thought people would like to know.

[Cockatoo 2,257]

I'm really lost on this, why should I install BAT4Max v3.0 as apposed to v2.5? Sorry, bit of a newb here, I need someone to explain to me the differences (or improvements) from v2.5.

...Yeah, I'm on the verge of installing Max (7) for the first time and I need a little advice on, you know, what else I need to get - namely what version of BAT4Max.

[JakeMD 107]

If I read correctly BAT for Max 3.0 has a lot of support for mental ray and batch rendering...

[Jasoncw 11,933]

Since there hasn't been an announcement here, and since the description in the link explicitly says that support will be handled at SC4D, I'm assuming that there won't be any "official" support here, and since none of the people who worked on BAT4Max 3 (I believe that this was made independently of SimFox's BAT4Max) usually help with troubleshooting here anyway, I don't think there will be "unofficial" support either.

If anyone has the scoop, feel free to inform us. This is the first I've heard of it.

[SimFox 802]

SWAT-Medic:

Don't believe everything you read!

First you have to establish the credentials of those who write it.

But to the point of this thread.

At first when I saw this, here and ion SC4Devotion, i wanted to keep quiet. One reason is that I'm sort of peddler of a competitive offering, and second... well I have a "complicated" relationship with one of the people who peddle this stuff on SC4Deviotion. And don't believe it s possible to have any kind of working one with said person, although I would loved to be proved wrong on this one...

This said I want to DRAW EVERYONES attention to the fact that people who are distributing and announcing it are NOT the one who made it, or even ones who understand much how and why it works.

About this so called v3.

First of all the fact that it was neither release no announced by the author should have been enough alarming sign. I'm not gonna get into the whole thing about copyrights. But potential user should keep in mind that it is the author who knows how and why things work and, consequently may offer to the point help - quite an important consideration for such a community projects.

What we have here is a quite unfinished BETA of the script Chris was working in parallel with me. We have helped each other and used parts of each other code in our version.

He used my Preview code, I used his LOD export code. I have also told Chris about Gamma issue and how implement it's acceptance in Export script.

We were in agreement on many things, but we had also diverged on some. One such a point of diversion was implementation of night part of export.

My position was that day and night should be removed into separate scenes. This way you would keep ALL process WYSIWYG - what you see is what you get. Chris insisted on maintaining status quo - keep everything you same one scene. In my opinion (although obviously not in his) this will constantly confused what is what, dramatically increase the possibility to run into all sort of problems (80% - at least) of errors occur when export script makes transition form day to night and back.

Chris main improvement (apart for some arguable UI additions) was new algorithm for generating Night View Masks. Idea was that it would produce better more smooth masks then the method used in Bat4Max v2. Result was a mixed bag. He did away with special mask pass (like in tuNite), but the result is IMHO sub-par(worse) than the old way. Here is an illustration:

Old way

New Way

truNite way (although with inappropriate rig it is still could be considered as a "perfect example" as it shows you what you really do in Max - albeit with inevitable compression that is always applied to any image with FSH conversion):

Worst of all is that night previews as they are implemented in the so called Bat4Max v3 are nothing but fakes. they don't really show you how you model will look at night. Or , to be precise they hide all the shortcomings. What is the point I would like to ask. To make it look good? In preview? Just in a preview! Curiously the Beta I've been sent still used honest preview. I raised the issues about shortcomings of new method and as a result Preview had been changed. So you simply wouldn't see it in advance, but after the export is done... well then it would be too later, so to say...

There are tons of bells and whistles in that version. Those were Chrises "pets"... I have always been in opposition tho them, though... First of all most of them are pointless dublecation of existing Max features. Some are just plain copy of those with new lablle on top. Confusing - to say the least.

To add injury to this insult many of those are plain dangerous - like LOD tools that created what is proclaimed "skin tight LODs" , but in reality simply copy ALL of the objects in your scene 3 (!) times . I can't even imagine what a mess would created even in case of mildly detailed BAT. Problem, many wouldn't, I mean understand it and create HUGE problems for themselves and others. Person who would be qualified enough for such a LOD would know how to create it. Crafting special Button to do it is like giving loaded gun to 5 year old.

Other, like selecting of the Lighting Rig from Pull down menu are implemented like this:

Medium rig:

Rig Rig:

Huge Rig:

note that not only level of illumination, shadow direction are different, but even the entire scene had "moved"!

Keeping in mind that the point of all those pull downs is to make it "totally easy" on user... let pull down LigtRigALNSunAndSky rig and... press the preview (day) button:

voilá I rest my case... those who know ill solve it whose who don't... well

These are just few point that are on the surface. I have no clue how many underwater one are there.

One thing I would like to add this "new release" doesn't solve the Mental Ray 3,6 and export script framing problem.

All-in-All there is nothing (apart of the burning desire of people pushing it) to justify "V3" label. IMHO it is alternative v2,5 beta (or may be even alternative 2,4 beta).

But that doesn't sounds catchy, now does it??

PS

I think I'm gonna slap a big button on mine one. doesn't mater what it will do realy, may be turing your scene upside-down and call it V4! That would be fun!

[JakeMD 107]

Wow interesting points Simfox.. hopefully you masterminds can get it sorted out.

[SimFox 802]

No, not really.

First of all I don't agree with general direction of this development.

Second, who will I be working with? Chris, whom I respect deeply despite our disagreements, is MIA (missing in Action) as has been stated on SC4D and been so for months now.

I have plans to continue work on My version, but I wouldn't be fixing any of the, so called V3, shortcomings or bugs, or doing any support for it. Not because I'm evil, well, not just because of it, but for simple reason that I need my version be on working copy of Max2008 and this V3 doesn't work on Max2009 properly either... so...

Use it AYOR

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

And I had gotten my hopes up for a second there...

But reading your post, I'm a bit more frustrated than disappointed. I don't understand the reasoning behind even releasing something that doesn't fix any of the issues for which many of us need it (no MR in 2009 is such a pain), on top of that it is debatable that the results are worse judging from those pictures... To use a BAT analogy, its like finishing one wall of a detailed building and uploading it, the part that is done is great, but there is a lot missing. However, this is not just like uploading 1 complete and detailed wall, but taking that wall and changing it around so it isn't even attractive anymore.

I don't know, perhaps I'm just being judgmental. I'm too much of a perfectionist to understand why things can get rushed sometimes (not to say being a perfectionist doesn't have its shortcomings). God bless those of you who script this stuff (I can't imagine going back to gmax) and best of luck fixing some of the issues still hanging around.

I really would love to see a v3.0 though,

-Todd

[toxicpiano 125]

Well simfox it was kind of announced on SC4D (there's a proper thread on it there), so don't shoot the messenger proper support thread https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=7159.new#new

[Jasoncw 11,933]

Does that link actually go anywhere for you? I tried clicking it in the LEX description and it didn't work for me then either. For me it says "The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you."

Anyway, I hope you don't feel like anyone is shooting at you, I don't think anyone is meaning to. Thanks for sharing it, I wouldn't have even known it existed otherwise.

[BarbyW 40]

Try pasting the url into your browser. It worked for me.

[Jasoncw 11,933]

hmmm, no it still doesn't work. 

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4668/62655414.jpg

Thanks though

[toxicpiano 125]

Originally posted by: Jasoncw Does that link actually go anywhere for you? I tried clicking it in the LEX description and it didn't work for me then either. For me it says "The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you."

Anyway, I hope you don't feel like anyone is shooting at you, I don't think anyone is meaning to. Thanks for sharing it, I wouldn't have even known it existed otherwise.quote>

works fine for me

[JakeMD 107]

Jason:

The link is working fine for me too.

Try This

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=7159.msg227790#msg227790)

[Neddiggis 1]

Just to clear a few things up, Chris was about ready to release this when he got hit by real life. All the things highlighted by simfox are his personal opinion, as he pointed out he and Chris differed on many points. The V3 number I think was actually Chris's internal version number, as opposed to a global version number and I am sorry for the confusion, that was my fault.

SimFox's 'issues' with some of Chris's additions are again personal opinion. Chris did add a few functions that existed in Max already, but that stemmed from Chris's unfamiliarity with Max. The array command was the one that springs to mind. The LOD functions that were added, despite what SimFox says, are brilliant. Most people who use Max will understand the danger of doing a very complex LOD, and it's never a smart move to design for the lowest common denominator.

On the lighting rigs, I'll talk to Lee about that, it looks like an issue with the Rigs, and I don't think Chris changed the default rigs so it's possibly an historical issue. We should be able to sort that one out. I'm not sure about the sun and sky, but I've always had issues with that, but again Lee should be able to help.

The reason I didn't put a post here is due in part to the fact I rarely visit here unless someone points me here, and Lee is banned, so we wouldn't be able to provide adequate support. I was intending to make a post announcing it, but I have been hecticly busy at work and didn't have the time. If anyone has any queries, please post them at the linked page at SC4D or send myself or Callagrafx a PM there.

[SimFox 802]

Well, I guess I also need to add my clarifications to Neddiggis clarifications...

Originally posted by: Neddiggis Just to clear a few things up, Chris was about ready to release this when he got hit by real life. All the things highlighted by simfox are his personal opinion, as he pointed out he and Chris differed on many points. The V3 number I think was actually Chris's internal version number, as opposed to a global version number and I am sorry for the confusion, that was my fault. quote>

Chris used V3 in this context This is direct quote from him):

"ALN Bat4Max Addon Beta V3.0"

Beta3 of ALN Bat4Max Addon, Not ALN BAT4Max v3 - there is a significant difference. Would you call it that (removing Beta v.3) there wouldn't be any confusion...

Originally posted by: NeddiggisSimFox's 'issues' with some of Chris's additions are again personal opinion. Chris did add a few functions that existed in Max already, but that stemmed from Chris's unfamiliarity with Max. The array command was the one that springs to mind. The LOD functions that were added, despite what SimFox says, are brilliant. Most people who use Max will understand the danger of doing a very complex LOD, and it's never a smart move to design for the lowest common denominator. quote>

Too much of arbitrary assumptions to my taste. Your and Callagrafx' claims, or to be precise, logic here is contradicting itself… People who “know”, don't need it (Tight LOD creator), as all it does is simply make  clones of selected geometry and attaches them together.  Process very easy indeed. So, if as you claim people know  why wouldn't they be able to do it manually. Also how do you ensure that those who don't know will not get their hands on this release? Especially as it seem to be specifically geared in that direction - replacing any knowledge of the tool - MAX by "simple" one button solution - clear appeal to those who don't know.

My main problem was with the fact that effort and time were spent on adding bells and whistles instead of addressing existing REAL problems and shortcomings of original BAT4Max. It was sort of scripting populism. Let's create a lot of meaningless (as not adding anything new or potentially dangerous things) just because they would get round of applause.

Callagrafx made an analogy with Pudding - Proof is in the eating. Well, let's staff Pudding with Es and see if people will like it...

Originally posted by: NeddiggisOn the lighting rigs, I'll talk to Lee about that, it looks like an issue with the Rigs, and I don't think Chris changed the default rigs so it's possibly an historical issue. We should be able to sort that one out. I'm not sure about the sun and sky, but I've always had issues with that, but again Lee should be able to help.quote>

I gave those as an example of rigorous testing. Given that Callagrafx (whom you gonna ask about it) specifically mentioned this feature as a bonus of this release.

About Sun and Sky ... there are SO many issues here that it should be topic of a separate discussion.

Originally posted by: NeddiggisThe reason I didn't put a post here is due in part to the fact I rarely visit here unless someone points me here, and Lee is banned, so we wouldn't be able to provide adequate support. I was intending to make a post announcing it, but I have been hecticly busy at work and didn't have the time. If anyone has any queries, please post them at the linked page at SC4D or send myself or Callagrafx a PM there.quote>

The reason I have decided to put post here that I felt that all the info presented with this release is misleading and inaccurate.

And I don't mean this time my differences with Chris over the bells and whistles - this is my personal opinion.

I mean claims of:

• Lots of improvements for Mental ray -which ones?? Can't see any
• Rigorous testing - how come this issue with lighting rigs? Even if one is to assume that this problem did existed prior this isn't the reason for it to reappear in tested version. Although it is understandable for Beta3 which this thing is, after all.
• Proper Night Preview - it is a night preview, but propriety of it is doubtful. And very fact that people testing it don't understand it puts the whole testing in question. How would people be able to see the difference between old and new Night mask method from such a preview?

Rest of things like installation procedures, Gamma correction, Photometric lights support - real MR improvements, all have been implemented before.

Of course it is possible to say that this all is just splitting the hair. OK let's remove all the hair, but what is there let them? I mean as to those grand claims for numerous improvements? Right just bells and whistles.

Introduction of any such tool is complex and complicated process. Testing is difficult (not necessarily hard, but difficult).  So this means that people standing behind it should be enough qualified to deal with it. Who is standing behind this release? Chris? Not really. Diggis I don’t want to offend you, I’ve never been in any contact with you in regard of MAX or Bat4Max or generally 3d or graphics for that matter. But I mention that you have to get Callagrafx to check and clarify some issues… I’ve read his claims and seen his use of tool and I have no confidence, sorry…