In New York, Broadway as Great Walk Way

[diamonddog_74 32]

It sounds like an interesting idea and I hope it works out well. New York deserves more pedestrian-friendly open spaces in the city's core.

Link to the New York Times article.

Edit - I reposted the link to the article, hopefully it is the right one!   --- Mikeaut1

[Muck308 55]

Your link is broken. Copy and paste it again and it should work. (you have to do it twice)

[Mikeaut1 261]

Part of me thinks this is a good idea, and another part of me doesnt. Broadway's vehicular traffic in the Theatre District flows downtown, in the direction of the major tunnels. Broadway is more important for traffic flow than one thinks, due to its curved flow right through the heart of downtown. It's the only really curved north-south street above Houston and below Central Park North. I think if the city were to close a sliver of Broadway to traffic, they would have to come up with some pretty well thought out detours to ensure traffic flow in the area. Broadway is an important thoroughfare, and even though its a good idea to allow more pedestrian-friendly areas in midtown, it's not worth the traffic and gridlock.

[GMT 389]

one the one hand, Broadway offers some of the finest locations to make a ped-only area, but then again, as mike said already, it's a very important road.

My first thought to get both done is making another tunnel, but I guess this would put costs over the edge, if possible at all (thinking of the ground's strukture and the subways)...

really hard to say.

it would certainly raise the... uhm... yes, livability of the area (lacking a better word ) tho

[thebanjo 0]

This pedmall on broadway is awfull ! I mean useless, who (well maybe some toursits) want to use a chairs just next a buzzing traffic....

[Duke87 1,070]

This has already been done between 23rd Street and Herald Square.

Traffic seems to hold up fine, although concern has been raised about just how safe people sitting there in the new pedestrian area are from stay vehicles. The city put some planters along the edge which apparently weight a couple hundred pounds each, but a truck could easily plow right through that.

Really, it's Times Square that could certainly use a bit more pedestrian friendliness. It's a major tourist trap attraction, yet it's a lot more pavement than sidewalk. If people could walk around there more freely, it would certainly be an improvement.. especially considering pedestrian congestion can be an issue around there.

Then again, it's really for the tourists and the business visitors. New Yorkers have no problem dealing with cars. We're used to darting between cars stopped in traffic and running across streets against the light. Five points if you make someone honk at you, ten if you piss off a taxi driver.

[Meg 368]

People fussed when they closed the stretch of Pennsylvania avenue between the White House and Lafayette Park to vehicular traffic.  and, somehow, life goes on.   It's a popular place to rollerblade these days.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[ilikehotdogsalot 311]

I agree with Duke. I think Times Square would benefit more from a pedestrian-only area.

[fukuda 351]

Traffic seems to hold up fine, although concern has been raised about just how safe people sitting there in the new pedestrian area are from stay vehicles. The city put some planters along the edge which apparently weight a couple hundred pounds each, but a truck could easily plow right through that.quote>

We have lots of pedestrian areas like that next to any very busy avenue and I've never heard of such a scene, and it's not like our drivers are any better or worse than average americans at driving

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek People fussed when they closed the stretch of Pennsylvania avenue between the White House and Lafayette Park to vehicular traffic.quote>

Wasn't that done for security reasons, though?

This is a matter of traffic calming and aesthetics.

[Mikeaut1 261]

Originally posted by: Duke87 This has already been done between 23rd Street and Herald Square.

Traffic seems to hold up fine, although concern has been raised about just how safe people sitting there in the new pedestrian area are from stay vehicles. The city put some planters along the edge which apparently weight a couple hundred pounds each, but a truck could easily plow right through that.

Really, it's Times Square that could certainly use a bit more pedestrian friendliness. It's a major tourist trap attraction, yet it's a lot more pavement than sidewalk. If people could walk around there more freely, it would certainly be an improvement.. especially considering pedestrian congestion can be an issue around there.

Then again, it's really for the tourists and the business visitors. New Yorkers have no problem dealing with cars. We're used to darting between cars stopped in traffic and running across streets against the light. Five points if you make someone honk at you, ten if you piss off a taxi driver. quote>

You really bring up a good point Duke in that Times Square does suffer from tremendous pedestrian congestion. If you've ever been in Times Square especially in that month between Thanksgiving and Christmas, you are always squished in between people and it gets so bad that people walk alongside the curb in the road, so taxis suffer too when they pull up to places.

I think the pedestrian mall in Broadway has its pros and cons, but mostly cons. The amount of taxis that are hailed in Times Square and Rockefeller Center probably surpass any other area in Manhattan. Broadway and 7th Avenue's intersection in Manhattan is a very important neighborhood with many hotels and office buildings. Many people think that Times Square is just home to the theatres and the big-name restaurants and stores. But there is so much more to it than that. It is a central area of commerce, employing hundreds of thousands of people. Do you really think that during a New York winter with Broadway in this area closed the only option for workers to get to their offices is to walk a few blocks down Broadway? I think the idea for pedestrian malls on Broadway is a great idea, just not in the area of Times Square. Perhaps Columbus Circle or the area in the lower 50's is a better neighborhood.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa I see minimal impact in removing "private" road traffic.  This does not mean public transit methods should be closed.  Let's allow taxis and buses, and even delivery vehicles.quote>

You're forgetting something here, though: this is New York we're talking about. Drivers in private cars will continue driving down Broadway unless a physical barricade prevents them from doing so. A little regulation that says "buses and taxis only" isn't going to stop people.

So that won't work.

[confused04 14]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Originally posted by: Barbarossa I see minimal impact in removing "private" road traffic.  This does not mean public transit methods should be closed.  Let's allow taxis and buses, and even delivery vehicles.quote>

You're forgetting something here, though: this is New York we're talking about. Drivers in private cars will continue driving down Broadway unless a physical barricade prevents them from doing so. A little regulation that says "buses and taxis only" isn't going to stop people.

So that won't work.quote>

Sure it could, its called fines. People made that argument for the Nicollet Mall in Minneapolis. People even said that you can't keep bikers out when they announced a 6 AM to 6 PM ban. Apparently slapping fines on folks does work. I know full well that my friends mom is never driving down the Nicollet Mall again . Nicollet Mall is a transit oriented pedestrian Mall in downtown Minneapolis which used to be a major road until Minneapolis underwent rejuvenation. I wish St. Paul could do that but its not happening cause the streets are narrow enough as it is. Sure you could make a transit oriented area, but add enough room for a sidewalk cafe and pedestrians and you've already cut the road down to a single lane ...sigh...

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: confused04  Sure it could, its called fines. People made that argument for the Nicollet Mall in Minneapolis. People even said that you can't keep bikers out when they announced a 6 AM to 6 PM ban. Apparently slapping fines on folks does work. quote>

I think you underestimate the capacity of drivers in New York to be {insert expletive of choice here}s, even in the face of authority.

[djrules5454 5]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Originally posted by: confused04  Sure it could, its called fines. People made that argument for the Nicollet Mall in Minneapolis. People even said that you can't keep bikers out when they announced a 6 AM to 6 PM ban. Apparently slapping fines on folks does work. quote>

I think you underestimate the capacity of drivers in New York to be {insert expletive of choice here}s, even in the face of authority.quote>

Though my fellow Minnesotan might, I don't. Especially because I almost got hit by a taxi in Times Square because I was at the tail-end of a mass of people when I was crossing 7th @ W 46th back in April '07. This was when they were doing all that construction there (I don't remember what for, though). I don't think it is the greatest idea, because daytime NYC drivers were, putting it lightly, very aggressive.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[hym 358]

As for Duke87's comment about misunderstanding New York drivers... even the biggest a*****e driver will learn not to violate a traffic law when they are fined over and over again (these fines are not generally cheap and insurance can be affected). Furthermore, a few towings will deter them as well as a clubbed tire here and there. The point is, people would learn to change their habits, and footpads would have to do more to earn their paycheck. It might even create a few new jobs.quote>

Not necessarily. FedEx spends millions of dollars every year paying for the parking tickets incurred by its drivers. It's just part of keeping the business running.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[belfastuniguy 18]

You can easily stop traffic for gaining 'access' to ped areas. In Belfast we have incredibly thick and strong rising bollards that are lowered for emergency vehicles and such but remain closed for everything else. I doubt anything could break through them. Some ped areas also allow buses to use the area and the buses are fitted with devices to communicate with the bollards.

I tend to support ped areas in cities, especially cities that have a large tourist influx. I have visited NY and I agree with those above in regard to Times Sq, but this section of Broadway is a great start

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Originally posted by: hym

As for Duke87's comment about misunderstanding New York drivers... even the biggest a*****e driver will learn not to violate a traffic law when they are fined over and over again (these fines are not generally cheap and insurance can be affected). Furthermore, a few towings will deter them as well as a clubbed tire here and there. The point is, people would learn to change their habits, and footpads would have to do more to earn their paycheck. It might even create a few new jobs.quote>

Not necessarily. FedEx spends millions of dollars every year paying for the parking tickets incurred by its drivers. It's just part of keeping the business running.quote>

FedEx is a delivery service.  It is not private traffic.  I believe I said public transport and deliveries in my first post.  quote>

This is missing the point.  My point is that there will always be those who will do what they will, regardless of what the law has to say about it.  For example, Houston makes hundreds of thousands of dollars a year off parking fines that FedEx has to pay because it's delivery drivers parked illegally.  Houston says that FedEx is breaking the law, and thus deserves to be fined.  FedEx says its drivers are going to keep parking illegally till the city does something about providing them a legal place to park.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[hym 358]

It has less to do with whether Broadway is going to turn into a giant sidewalk, and more to do with the comment that a driver will learn to not violate a traffic law when they are fined over and over again. Personal experience has told me many times that people will do what the hell they want, and if they have to pay a fine for it, well, they have to pay a fine for it, but they aren't going to quit doing it. I've met people who have racked up thousands of dollars in speeding tickets and they just keep speeding.

[Yoman3 5]

Not sure if I support this, it just changes Times Square too much, think of all the photos of Yellow cabs on 7th Ave & Broadway. My thought is that if a tourist is getting hit by a cab in Times Square because he is looking at a Neon sign then that is his problem. Duke is right also, nothing short of those massive concrete flower pots that are supposed to stop trucks or whatever that they put in front of government buildings would stop people from continuing to drive down Broadway

Speaking of crazy drivers, I got in a cab in Chelsea on Monday, was taking it to Grand Central, all along the way the cab driver was spewing out conspiracy theories at me Apparently Kennedy was assassinated by Charles De Gaulle's agents

[Duke87 1,070]

Meh, I don't like cabs. It's been years since I've been in one. If I had to get from Chelsea to Grand Central I'd just take the subway. It's (a lot) cheaper, It's greener, and you don't have to deal with the crazy psycho drivers.

[confused04 14]

Just to warn folks... if you take a taxi cab in Minneapolis, don't let them fool you that they won't accept cards... LIES!!!! We had a taxi driver try to fleece us and I threatened to call the BBB and report his taxi information if he didn't let me out of the car that instant. I hate to give taxi driver's a bad rap but almost ALWAYS they claim they don't accept credit cards despite there a) being a law that they must, b) displaying both on the outside and on the back of the driver's seat that they accept AT LEAST Visa and Mastercard...

Maybe NYC just needs better traffic enforcement. Lets get some of those Minneapolis beat cops in there ready to ticket even long boarders, bikers etc Heck, if I were NY, I'd have camera's posted at either end of the pedestrian mall and only authorized vehicles would have proper license plates to avoid tickets. Sounds like a budget saver to me if New Yorkers want to break the law fine, face stiff fines. If you attack people's wallets, I don't think it matters where you live, you'll get your point across. And if the fines are ineffectual, then maybe get a physical barrier... but ewwwwwwwww

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: confused04

Heck, if I were NY, I'd have camera's posted at either end of the pedestrian mall and only authorized vehicles would have proper license plates to avoid tickets. Sounds like a budget saver to me if New Yorkers want to break the law fine, face stiff fines. quote>

Let me tell you a little story:

Last summer, the city restriped 34th Street to add a bus only lane in each direction. They wanted to install cameras to enforce it but they can't do that without Albany's approval. Albany did not approve.

The result? The day after the restriping was done, people saw fit to use those bus lanes as places to park.

[fukuda 351]

And if the fines are ineffectual, then maybe get a physical barrier... but ewwwwwwwww quote>

As belfast said, there's no need to reinvent the wheel, just try to get past a line of retractible bollards like this one

They can split open a truck, so don't try it.

[Mikeaut1 261]

I think we're also veering away from the point that Broadway is an extremely important thoroughfare in the city of New York. Prohibiting vehicular traffic in a certain spot on Broadway just doesn't make sense to me. I would much rather prefer Broadway be transformed into a ped mall down in the Lower Manhattan area. There is much less vehicular volume in Lower Manhattan than in Midtown. If you've ever been in Lower Manhattan on a Saturday night, it's like a ghost town on many streets there. The whole area shuts down like after 7PM each night. Weekends aren't really busy there, because the real hype of Manhattan in in the Times Square/Midtown area. Lower Manhattan pretty much works on a 9-5 schedule, at least in the heavily commercial areas. 

Maybe a pedmall in Lower Manhattan would make more sense, and traffic would be less effected by its construction. Also Lower Manhattan is really a beautiful place, and this would make conditions in a mainly business area of the city even more pleasant.