What do you think of the seal hunt?

[granto93 4]

okay, just my opinion here but i think people who protest against the seal hunt are sick in the head and misinformed. no offense to anyone of course. These seal hunters depend on the hunt for their livelihood, they need to feed their children just like people who work at anything else have to. Just because the baby seals are cute and cuddly everybody comes out trying to stop the hunt. You dont see anybody protesting the slaughter of cattle, chicken, turkeys or any other animal on earth. The hunters dont even kill the baby seals, they are not allowed to. And, the seals are not endangered, in fact they are overpopulated. 300 000 is a fraction of the seals that will be crawling on the ice pans of the Gulf of St.Lawerence this spring. I live here in Newfoundland and alot of the people in my family and close friends depend on the hunt for income during the long winter months. Without it they would more than likely be spending more time on the mainland in Alberta working...leaving their families behind. Or moving out all together. If your family had to pack up and move because some idiot celebrity comes up and starts spewing out false information to the whole world wouldnt you be pissed off? These ultra-maroons should be trying harder to protect the endangered species, like the blue whale which also passes by our shores each year...unnoticed. Sorry for my rant but its disgusting and infuriating how ignorant and misinformed people are. The hunt has been deemed humane and it will stay that way. Everybody should just leave us alone and let us make our living. Its alright for Paul McCartney, Heather Mills, Pam Anderson and Paul Watson to protest because they dont have to risk their lives hunting seals to make ends meat.

[Micah 16]

This is just a general statement: let's stop the personal attacks. The forum rules state that you cannot critisize someone for their beliefs or opinions. Let's keep it that way, please.

[Bumdark 3]

EDIT – Sorry Micah, posted this as you replied. I'm not attacking, I'm defending instead.

First of all, to Snowloch: glad to see you know how to read. Now, you only need to learn... how to understand what you read. Notice that part about "feeling pangs when animals as cute as seals are being slaughtered" – I didn't say anything at all, whatsoever, that we shouldn't kill animals that are cute. Never said it, never thought it. It's just sad, but necessary (when we need their meat).

And BTW, got those statistics off Wikipedia itself, and if you can't trust wikipedia to be neutral and accurate, you can't trust anything or anyone. (And proving that many statistics are wrong by more statistics – kinda contradictory, don't ya think...? Unless it's in one of those 66% true ones (by your count, which I can also question the validity and source), in which case I can forgive... whatever.

Now for (or to, I guess, would be more appropriate...) granto93: I won't deny that many people's (and even villages') livlehoods and lives are based and centered in or around seal-hunting, I'm not against seal hunters or anything, just against the idea of hunting seals (or anything) for vain, pathetic reasons such as using them as accessories to fashion, and related barbarism. Said before and saying again: hunting any creature, seals included, for right reasons (such as when you need them to live, basically) – all for it.

Now, if people could stop misreading posts around the forums and actually understand the authors' points, instead of twisting words... eh?

[granto93 4]

okay....sorry for the attack just get a little fusturated over these touchy subjects...i apologize

Bumdark: yeah, i can relate to what you're saying with the right reasons and stuff. If it were up to me, hunting for fashion would not be allowed but you have to understand that these hunters are desperate enough to hunt for anything for any reason....they need the money. and im not against people who firmly oppose the seal hunt, i guess what im trying to say is that im against people being misinformed and than protesting it which is basically 90% of people. The first post here says they hunt 300 000 baby seals, which is untrue meaning the author was misinformed. Baby seals are never hunted, legally anyway. Im just trying to get facts out here seeing as i have close ties to the hunt. Its not fair to get people riled up about stuff that is not true. Nobody hears the sealers side of the story because they don't get the TV time...and we all know that whats on TV is what everyone sees. But yeah, you're arguments definantly ARE valid.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Bumdark

EDIT – Sorry Micah, posted this as you replied. I'm not attacking, I'm defending instead.

quote>

Either way, you are being snarky.  Shall you edit or shall I?

[threeswept 12]

Apparently, from the second post, the topic immediately changed from slaughter for clothing to slaughter from food...which wasn't the original post. So, though I believe that hunting for food in your native area/land/country is necessary for people to live...especially if the by-products of the hunt are used, as well, I do not support hunt for the sport or for the kinds of trade the pelts are used for.

If anyone doesn't know, seals are routinely clubbed or shot and left to suffer on the ice, then dragged over the sides of boats with sharpened metal hooks. Few seal hunters are observed checking to see if a seal is still alive before they skin it. Many people mistakenly think Canada stopped hunting baby seals decades ago...they didn't. Baby seals - or, "beaters" 'cause they get beat in the head - are allowed to be bludgeoned from around day 12 - after it's white fur has molted.

Anyway, the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) recently released quotas for the hunt which are lower because the hunt is becoming less sustainable. And, with the ban on selling pelts around Europe, low prices for pelts and high energy costs, it's not as worthwhile for some. And, thanks to global warming, I personally wouldn't be surprised if DFO "quota" isn't lowered in the coming years due to the lack of Arctic ice and breeding.

[Bumdark 3]

SkiGeek: Dammit, I thought you of all people would understand...

Snarky? Sorry, but when people like that don't even bother to try and understand what I say, and then use this misread stuff AGAINST me, isn't it natural for blood to heat, if only just a little? I get attacked in the real world enough as it is, I don't need... people... on the internet doing the same, especially when I'm trying to prove a completely valid and truthful point. Sorry if I was being a tad sharp, i admit I'm heavily impulsive (not trying to make excuses, just part of being Asperger's I presume, I'd be an idiot not to realise it by now) ... yet I honestly (not trying to be smartass here) am not going to modify it. Let the record show I was annoyed and angered by someone who used my quotes, twisted them, and attacked me with them. (Not attacked, maybe, but similar). I'm actually proud for restraining myself as I did. Hate my life.

And besides, to me, censorship (which is solely what editing is) is just another way of saying "We don't give a damn what you say or how you say it, so shut up and say what we want to hear so we'll let you say it". Nothing quite as insulting as that, wouldn't you agree?

And also, "Shall you edit or shall I?" ... Not trying to be a smartass once again, but wasn't that snarky in itself? (Whatever the hell Snarky even is, I figure it's "sharp+aggressive". Please correct me if I'm wrong... only thing worse than an idiot is a misinformed idiot, I believe.)

I meant all the above in complete respect, of course. You're one of the more level-headed (I hope that's the right expression...) members around here, I hope you'll understand reasoned arguments and judgments...

[Snowloch 0]

I'm sorry Bumdark, I'm looking at it now and I just can't find those stats anywhere on wikipedia. I did find...

"but ringed seal is still an important food source for the people of Nunavut."

"Seal oil was often used as lamp fuel, lubricating and cooking oil, for processing such materials as leather and jute, as a constituent of soap, and as the liquid base for red ochre paint."

"the harp seal population is now stable at about five million animals, three times as many seals as in the 1970s."

Granted probably most of the sealers need to learn how to kill more humanely, but I see no difference in this than in any other mass killing going on with any other type of animal.

[Bumdark 3]

This is definately the most replies I've done in half an hour...

(And, I'm adressing to Snowloch, in case other people post replies as I'm typing this, which happens far to often...)

For the stats, I did find them on Wikipedia, yet having such a rotted memory, I can't for the life of me remember which page it was... I searched for "Seal Hunts" (always want to be well-informed on any subject before I reply) and it was like the third or fourth page down or something... Sorry for the great vageness of this, I honeslty can't recall. I'll go searching for it later on, see if I can retrace my steps... Perhaps I'll be able to use a full quote instead of a snippet this time,

For all those excerpts named though, I'm forced to repeat: I'm not against hunting seals as a whole, just against the IDEA (the concept, the image, however you put it) of hunting for living, breathing, suffering, fashion accessories. People hunting seals because they actually need the income, or the meat, byproducts (blubber), etc. – always been for that, always will be.

And yet, I do admit, though, that while I'm for actually killing the seals for their meat and stuff, I'm quite repelled at HOW they do it... bashing their skulls in, dragging them around banks with large hooks, leaving them to suffer, etc. – makes me sick people can be insensitive to those kinds of atrocities...

Finally, could you explain what you mean by "mass killing going on with any other type of animal"? I'm probably stupid, but I don't know of any. I know poachers hunt elephants (I'd like to burn them up with flamethowers myself), but mass killings... I can't really think of any examples. Please clarify that. Who knows, maybe I have an opinion on them too...!

Sorry if I was a bit sharp before, I might need to watch my words a bit... I tend to get carried away and all, and the results usually aren't pretty. If only I had Greg House's indemnity to that sort of stuff...! (Love that show!)

[Meg 368]

Bumdark:  yes, it is natural to get a little upset at things.  That doesn't mean we get to behave badly.

To define the term:

    snark·y:  Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.

My point was, there is no need to make statements like "Snowloch: glad to see you know how to read. Now, you only need to learn... how to understand what you read". 

Note that he had already changed his post before you posted that.

No one is saying "We don't give a damn what you say or how you say it, so shut up and say what we want to hear so we'll let you say it".

What am I saying is this:  talk about the issues, not each other.

If you want to debate seal hunting, go for it.  Just leave out any comments directed at other people.   If you believe XYZ and someone else believes ABC, talk about why you believe XYZ or why ABC doesn't make sense for you.  Don't talk about the other person.

[Snowloch 0]

Originally posted by: BumdarkFinally, could you explain what you mean by "mass killing going on with any other type of animal"? I'm probably stupid, but I don't know of any. I know poachers hunt elephants (I'd like to burn them up with flamethowers myself), but mass killings... I can't really think of any examples. Please clarify that. Who knows, maybe I have an opinion on them too...! quote>

Fair enough.  Some interesting stats found around the web real fast. Take them with a grain of salt, as I would hope everyone interested in the matter would also do thier own research into the matter.

-- Over 7.5 - 9 billion (chickens) birds are killed each year in the United States. That's around 21 million a day.

-- ...it is estimated that more than 17 billion fish are killed for food in the United States each year.

-- (estimated) anywhere from 10 to 30 million cows are killed every year in the United States.

-- 100 million sharks are killed each year ... for the skin for high-quality leather; teeth and jaws for ornaments; liver oil for cosmetics, medicines, vitamin A, and skin-care products; and cartilage for false cancer 'cures'.

-- 23000 elephants killed each year for ivory.

-- Google Chinese Bear Farms.

Compare that to 300k seals that aren't even kept in captivity.  Now I don't have any problem with the slaughter of cows/chicken/etc either, as there are a lot of people in the world that need to be fed, and is just one of those neccessary evils.

[Duke87 1,070]

[Bumdark 3]

SkiGeek:

yes, it is natural to get a little upset at things.  That doesn't mean we get to behave badlyquote>

That makes it sound like it's a privilege!

Although, aren't humans programmed to naturally behave badly for no good reasons...? At any rate, all cooled out now (amazing what a good night's sleep will do ya). Who knows, might even, someday, eventually, start to feel the tiniest bit sorry for that little outburst... Ah well, shnucks.

Snowloch: I can't begin to reply in horror at those numbers, honestly...

— Chickens: well, that's to be expected, as they're bred and raised for that sole purpose, not really like seals, who live apart from it all but we choose to intrude upon them, etc. Horrible, but if we stop that, then when are our finger-lickin' chicken? (Actually hate PFK – contradictory, eh?)
— Fish: Well, we might kill far more fish than just about any other creature, but for every million fish killed there's about a billion more being created and born, so... Plus, we don't use them as fashion accessories as with seal skins, only for their food.
— For the cows, same as the first one, though they're also turned into leather... but as most of that leather is actually useful (components for pianos, etc.), it's not just clothes, so I don't have as many objections there...
— For the sharks... Believe me, most of the sharks killed are just accidents anyway, they get caught in fishnets and unfortunately die there, but most hunters also kill sharks, either for sport (bastards), or out of fear or reprisal. (Every time there are shark victims, sharks are violently killed and slaughtered in the area for weeks... stupid humans...).
— Elephants, for their ivory – I can't begin to describe my loathing for those that bring thise magnificent creatures down just for their tusks. I honestly swear, if I somehow found myself in Africa and found some poachers, I would probably attack them. There are some things you just can't do and get away with it!
— Chinese bear farms... I'll get back at you, but why doesn't that sound too good? ... Also, why does everything negative these days happen in or around China these days, exactly...?

[GingerBlokey 30]

I think it's wrong, but it makes it even more shocking that this is Canada. The US' liberal brother.

I do agree with Granto that the slaughter of any animals is wrong , Im a vegetarian.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: GingerBlokey I think it's wrong, but it makes it even more shocking that this is Canada. The US' liberal brother.

I do agree with Granto that the slaughter of any animals is wrong , Im a vegetarian.quote>

Exactly. Liberal— among the defintions are 8. open-minded or tolerant, esp. free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.. Not killing them because it doesn't look that good would be in line with "conventional ideas / values".

[Snowloch 0]

Most of those stats were just in the United States alone.  I can't imagine what the world-wide numbers would be.

but for every million fish killed there's about a billion more being created and bornquote>

Likewise with the seal population.  Currently the hunt is for 300k seals, with an estimated population of about 5 million currently.  Hardly enough to cause any damage or threat to the population.  And fish scales are used from anything from jewelry to make-up.

Believe me, most of the sharks killed are just accidents anywayquote>

Although some sharks are killed for fear, food or sport, most are killed for the reasons stated in my previous post.  Google shark fin soup.

[Bumdark 3]

Shark fin soup... *barfs*

[GingerBlokey 30]

Originally posted by: Bumdark Shark fin soup... *barfs*quote>

It's actually really nice.

[saltandsauce 0]

seal populations are rocketing which is putting an even bigger strain on fish and the only reason anyone cares really is because they're so damn cute

why am i in a discussion full of self haters?

[ILL Tonkso 1,239]

For me it comes down to this:

Kill for Food: Yes

Kill for Sport or Goods: No

[TheQuiltedLlama 34]

Originally posted by: Snowloch

Originally posted by: TheQuiltedLlama In fact, if the whole world went vegetarian there would be much more food for everyone, and with modern food stuffs like Quorn you can easily get the food stuffs you would otherwise get from meat.quote>

 

Do you also know how much forest around the world would be eliminated, and how much wildlife would be extinct, just to clear land for cultivation?quote>

Actually, there would be more land available everywhere to allow animal's natural habitats to expand.

We use massive amounts of farm spaces to grow food to feed to animals, and then eat the animals. If we used the area to grow food for us to consume directly then we would actually use far less space and more natural animal habitat can be preserved.

Now, I am not saying that everyone should be forced to be vegetarian, that wouldn't make sense. But I do think that people need to understand it is not necessary for us to eat animals, although certain animals are very tasty.

[farmer-alex 2]

We are naturally omnivores...

Surely that is a big enough reason to eat meat...

( maybe a bit biassed coming from a Sheep Farmer + Pheasant Keeper. )

Anyways, as said before, this Thread was about Seal Clubbing...

haha

[osaka101 0]

isay that that there is problem but many problems should be resolved in Laos and cambodia not just canada seal hunt right? i say way they kill them is bad but still/....

[osaka101 0]

but its mean because they are kill BABY seals, not adult ons...

[TheQuiltedLlama 34]

Anyways, as said before, this Thread was about Seal Clubbing... quote>

All the best discussions go off on a tangent.

We are naturally omnivores...

Surely that is a big enough reason to eat meat... quote>

I'm not saying anyone should be forced to vegetarian, it's your choice.

I don't think the slaughter of all animals will be eradicated any time soon. But steps are being taken to remove the most barbaric acts, like fox hunting. I, personally, don't see how one gets pleasure out of the killing of an animal, but that isn't really the point. The point is that it is an entirely unnecessary act. You say it is needed to keep fox numbers down, but I live in 'the countryside' and as of yet I haven't seen packs of wolves terrorising the local farms. And I'm sure if fox numbers did get out of control the government would take the necessary action to control the numbers humanly.

As for the topic: As you may have gathered, I think it is wrong for any animal to be killed for unnecessary reasons. But in this situation as Granto has explained the livelihoods of many people depend on this, perhaps there should be investment into alternative employment in the area, or more guidelines and funding to promote sustainable and more humane hunting. This would be far preferable to a load of ill-informed protesters.

[granto93 4]

Originally posted by: GingerBlokey I think it's wrong, but it makes it even more shocking that this is Canada. The US' liberal brother.

I do agree with Granto that the slaughter of any animals is wrong , Im a vegetarian.quote>

well, i didnt say that slaughter of any animals is wrong, in fact im all for it. We are part of the food chain afterall. I just think it would be better if it were all looked at the same way instead of just getting hyped up over the seal hunt. Now, you're a vegetarian so i can see why you wouldnt like it but for someone who eats chicken, beef, fish etc everyday to jump all over Newfoundland because of the sealing is hippocritical imo.

Id also like to point out just once more that the seal hunt has been deemed humane by all wildlife associations (except the loons like Sea Sheppard ) and the government and it is NOT the cute baby seals getting killed like most people think. They are the older seals, probably soon to die anyway. The Coast guard does a fine job of patrolling the ice fields making sure that rules are being followed.

On another note, just a couple days ago, the Coast Guard seized the Sea Sheppard Ship "Farley Mowat" after the vessel was illegally navigating the waters and coming within .5 of a nautical mile of the hunt without a permit. Apparently the crew was interfering with the activites and confronting the sealers. Now, i have to say that the protesters don't really bother me so much, but when they decide to come in and interfere thats just crossing the line. Basically what im saying is that the protesters are the ones commiting the crimes are the protesters Its weird how people frown on a people legally making an honest living while they worship and fork out money to a bunch of criminals. All these people want is to make money from people supporting their cause and they will do anything, even break the law to do so. These people are now ashore and on hunger strike, once again, drawing attention to themselves.

[panthersimcity4 162]

What do I think of seal hunting? *goes on a curseword-filled rant*

JK , I don't know much about it so I don't really have an opinion - but so far I'm against it.

[TRNSTN 0]

Originally posted by: saltandsauce seal populations are rocketing which is putting an even bigger strain on fish and the only reason anyone cares really is because they're so damn cute

quote>

Humans shouldn't really be the ones controlling mother nature's natural cycles. There are always ups and downs in populations of anything. As for seals, well technically we're the biggest threat to their food supply, so shouldn't we be culling our own? Remember the Grand Banks, well who over fished them?

Don't forget Global Warming <-- only mentioning it there is a thread for this I know.

*************

About the point regarding the livelihoods of seal hunters;

The Inuit or other Natives of Canada are legally allowed to hunt, whales, seals and other animals because firstly it is their tradition and their sole survival depends on it. Importing beef and other foods is economically quite unsound. They do not waste the animal because they use all parts of the animal, and thus the hunting of it is much more legitimate. Whereas commercial mass culling of populations just for the fur market is absolutely disgusting. The reasons celebrities decide to protest the seal hunt, espcially the one in Canada is because wearing furs is not necessary, we're in an age where wearing dead animals isn't t he most desirable thing and is generally deemed unnecessary (a "luxury"). The only reason there is a mass seal hunt is to feed the hungry market for furs, if there was no demand would all the seal hunters then starve? Things change, people move and change professions. During the industrial revolution how many millions stopped farming to go operate a giant sewing machine? I'm sorry but tradition and livelihood are not an excuse to continue a useless massacre.

Shark Fin:

Okay this one's tough. Most Westerners think Asian food is gross (it's a cultural thing, but hey I think wearing dead animals is gross, so....). But, on the contrary, I love raw fish, eat duck tongues, and shark fin soup is GOOD. HOWEVER, Shark fin soup is in itself disgusting, poachers simply catch sharks, cut off their fins and leave them to die in the ocean. That is extremely inhumane, and I am not for it. But, you have to realize shark fin soup is a hundreds of years tradition for special occasions and celebrations, and with the burgeoning populations in the East, the rising demand is pushing sharks towards extinction. There are alternatives, synthetic made shark fin, but obviously not as popular. I try not to eat it during weddings. Anyways, it's like having an American steak dinner with synthetic beef, you get my point. (what about McDonalds ?)

There is a difference between hunting for sustenance and hunting for fashion, the debate is about the hunting for fashion part, attack that please.

[patriots_1228 51]

Well im not the kind of "I wonder what happens when i shoot that bird with this 9 mil?" kind of person, im also not the "aww, the poor roadkill. lets clean its wounds and bury it in a velvet covered grave" kind of person either, and i find it halarious how bent out of shape people can get on animal killing. Look, in the jungle, if a tiger walked up to a bird and stomped on it, then walked away, none of you would start firing at it, or walking around it with picket signs. The reason the tiger did that is because it could. And that is the reason why we kill animals for no reason. Because we can. Is it right? no. Is it mean? yes. But should we be able to do it if we want to? yes. why? because, we were made smarter and are better equipped, and thats what the strong do, they beat on the weak.

Now, half the reason im saying that is to antagonize any tree huggers we might have here, because, i'd find a very abusive response halarious, but, in a way, i do beleive it. personally, i think killing animals for no reason is sick, but i don't think that doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to do it if we want. Now add in the fact that they need to do this to make a living and well, that just about justifies it for me.

But on the subject of shark fin soup, i agree. disgusting....

Who was the person who thought to eat the fin? thats probably the most unedible looking part of the shark.

[TRNSTN 0]

Originally posted by: patriots_1228 Well im not the kind of "I wonder what happens when i shoot that bird with this 9 mil?" kind of person, im also not the "aww, the poor roadkill. lets clean its wounds and bury it in a velvet covered grave" kind of person either, and i find it halarious how bent out of shape people can get on animal killing. Look, in the jungle, if a tiger walked up to a bird and stomped on it, then walked away, none of you would start firing at it, or walking around it with picket signs. The reason the tiger did that is because it could. And that is the reason why we kill animals for no reason. Because we can. Is it right? no. Is it mean? yes. But should we be able to do it if we want to? yes. why? because, we were made smarter and are better equipped, and thats what the strong do, they beat on the weak.

Now, half the reason im saying that is to antagonize any tree huggers we might have here, because, i'd find a very abusive response halarious, but, in a way, i do beleive it. personally, i think killing animals for no reason is sick, but i don't think that doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to do it if we want. Now add in the fact that they need to do this to make a living and well, that just about justifies it for me.

But on the subject of shark fin soup, i agree. disgusting....

Who was the person who thought to eat the fin? thats probably the most unedible looking part of the shark.quote>

My goodness....I know what kind of thing you're talking about, that very brutal sometimes ridiculous slapstick like humour involving violent and grotesque forms of force against lesser creatures or forms.

That sickens me, and you say eating shark fin is disgusting? Before we start a debate about who thought about eating shark fin, it was probably  very desperate and resourceful fish farmers who thought of not wasting any part of an animal that thought of making something useful out of it, which is what this debate is about no? Not wasting life for nothing?

I'm sorry where are there videos or recorded sightings of tigers stomping on helpless birds? There is a natural order of laws and "respect" if you will between creatures in the animal kingdom, animals prey or predator do not become excessive in their use of force or resources because they understand that over consumption or waste can lead to you knot surviving. Unlike us humans who can roll around in tanks and throw puppies off cliffs. We're not the dominant species of the planet so we can do jack all and whatever we want, and screw it up for everything else, hell we're screwing it up for ourselves. Do you really think it's productive for the dominant species to go out of their way so they can beat up, maim, torture and kill animals less than them? Not even animals, your saying because we're dominant we can do whatever we want. Husbands can and want to beat their wives, does that mean it's okay?