Europeans Beware!

[confused04 14]

Just wanted to say.....

1) Just because there have been a few, successful busts of terrorist cells in Europe, it only takes ONE to do the damage necessary to kill thousands. Many of the terror cells are ill-equipped home grown, disgruntled and marginalized secondary or tertiary generation Muslims. Even the US has had a lot of success in cracking down terrorists in cities such as Buffalo and in California. Successfully shutting down 20 cells out of X number can be either 100% or 0.0001% Don't get too confident. What irks me a lot are people in BOTH Europe and the United States are claiming "We haven't had an attack since_____" or "We've never had an attack..." and ALL it takes to negate that statement is an attack. As people have pointed out 10 years is not a long time for sleeper cells.

2) Lets not claim the CIA or MI5 / MI 6 are any better than each other because they share information. Its like saying, Joe is better at taking tests than Bob although they cheat off each other and submit the same answers. CIA got a bad wrap for Iraq although they had actually said many times that the connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq was tenuous or non existent. The CIA had protested many times prior, during, and after the 2003 Iraq Invasion for a lack of evidence indicating the presence of terror cells in the country. It was Bush, Powell, and Condeleeza Rice who had control over the information and played up the data that supported their case. The CIA has been very successful and the scary thing is that we will likely NEVER know the true successes of any clandestine organization as we will only know their failures.

3) There is little connection between the economic crisis stemming from the mortgage crisis and the War on Terror. Lending practices do not reflect fear of terrorists. This would likely have happened regardless if we were at war. The US has been in a lot of plastic debt since the 1980's. Some economic analysts argue that war spending helped make the 2001-2002 recession short and easy by pumping billions in defense spending. Naturally, you can argue the effects of 200 billion dollars a year going into Iraq to pay for this war, but just don't connect the sup prime mortgage crisis to the war. Thats just a bunch of irresponsible lenders and lendees screwing up.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy That article also shows the cartoons...nice to see that. I never found them that bad to be honest..then again I don't care how religious figures are protrayed.quote>

Just remember that only nine of them show Muhammad, and that two of those only show him in drawings (in the drawings). One of them (bottom middle) might as well be someone else than the prophet, and unless it's Muhammad that greets dead "martyrs" (like St. Peter does) it has to be someone else in that picture too (the text reads "Stop, stop, we're out of virgins!").

Interesting to note, three of them depicts the editor, a anti immigration politician and a young Persian schoolboy writing on the blackboard.

Originally posted by: confused04[...]but just don't connect the sup prime mortgage crisis to the war. Thats just a bunch of irresponsible lenders and lendees screwing up.quote>

It's more than just some irresponsible lenders/borrowers in the US—when not even banks can lend money of each other, there's something wrong.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

So blasphemy requires a response of murderous violence? In a religion where peace is one of the basic tenets?

I can't connect the dots there. I believe there is something I am missingquote>

Your not missing anything they just use their religion as a veil to excuse their violence and murder. True Muslims would never resort to such means. Many are peaceful and are disgusted their religion has been dragged through the gutter by these radicalsquote>

Well, that, and if you look at most any religion, they all promote peace, and all have blasphemy as punishable by death.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Yeah but some religions have moved on from demanding death for blasphemy. We had a blasphemy protest in the UK with the Jerry Springer Opera was to be broadcast on the BBC. I certainly didn't see people calling for mass murder. It seems that Radical Muslims are the only ones calling for such thinga. Also in the UK we are preparing to abolish all blasphemy laws....which is just right in my view.

[panthersimcity4 162]

God, why are people so scared of Muslims? Most Muslims I've ever known are very nice, and not "Allahuakbar kill everyone!"-ish like people seem to think. 

It's not Muslims that are the problem, it's pompous cowards like Bin-Laden who manipulate their religion into a justification for their own greed.

[SkyTearer 10]

true that. To be fair you can't say everyone is afraid of Muslims, it's mainly the Americans who have been brainwashed by their media to believe they are evil. I've seen comments on here, by Americans stating, "we need to kill them all!" Or "exterminate all the muslims" and other comments calling them "animals". That seems based on fear and mis-understanding.

[patriots_1228 51]

Originally posted by: SkyTearer true that. To be fair you can't say everyone is afraid of Muslims, it's mainly the Americans who have been brainwashed by their media to believe they are evil. I've seen comments on here, by Americans stating, "we need to kill them all!" Or "exterminate all the muslims" and other comments calling them "animals". That seems based on fear and mis-understanding.quote>

 

No we are not brainwashed. And frankly, your attitude disgusts me. You have done nothing but insult america and americans.

[SkyTearer 10]

Lol mate I lived in Florida for 6 years, I know all about America, and look at the facts here, who has made comments like that? All Americans except for one Brit

feel free to insult the UK all u want, I'm not easily offended, I'm just trying to tell the facts. Have u ever watched Fox news? Or a Cheney, Bush, or Rumsfeld speech? Talk to some people in the South, the majority will tell u they want to bomb all the middle east or something like that. The majority philosophy at my old High School was that we should nuke them all, that is disgusting

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: SkyTearer true that. To be fair you can't say everyone is afraid of Muslims, it's mainly the Americans who have been brainwashed by their media to believe they are evil. I've seen comments on here, by Americans stating, "we need to kill them all!" Or "exterminate all the muslims" and other comments calling them "animals". That seems based on fear and mis-understanding.quote>

Could you please substantiate some of those claims?

I've lived in the deep south of the US for 19 years.  Very few of the people around here believe in bombing the Middle East off the map. 

BTW - six years is not enough to know all about America.  I've lived here for over twenty years, and there's still a ton of stuff I don't know.

[nazaguy 0]

Its True. Only Muslims want their enemies to be eradicated from the planet! The Iraq War is some Muslim lie! And we do worse stuff too. We are commanded by the Quran to um, eat babies and ..er.. puppies? And we can turn into terror moths!

On a more serious note though, I do find the cartoons offensive. They advocate the view that all Muslims are terrorists. You know the one with Muhhamed wearing a bomb in his turban, i find it to be racist. (well, I know Muslims aren't a race but, you get my meaning) If you want to solve the problem of Islamic idiotic terrorism, making a load of offensive cartoons isn't the way forward. According to the free speech argument, i should be able to walk around the Jewish neighbourhood with a SS uniform on shouting out 'death to the Jews' (but my Jewish friend would kill me). Remember what Jesus said, treat others as you wished to be treated. Or at least i think its him who said it.

And SkyTearer, remember that the Americans who say things like that are a insane, very small minority.

[fukuda 351]

Originally posted by: SkyTearer and look at the facts here, who has made comments like that? All Americans except for one Britquote>

The majority ,if not all, of the comments were referring to Al Qaeda and not muslims, just a reminder

Oh, and caricatures don't advocate points of view, they are gross sarcasm (for those who tend to forget it)

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: SkyTearer true that. To be fair you can't say everyone is afraid of Muslims, it's mainly the Americans who have been brainwashed by their media to believe they are evil. I've seen comments on here, by Americans stating, "we need to kill them all!" Or "exterminate all the muslims" and other comments calling them "animals". That seems based on fear and mis-understanding.quote>

Can you please provide evidence of such comments?  Like Fukuda, I believe most of them, if read carefully and in the context they are written for, reveal that the author was speaking about terrorist Muslims, not Muslims in general.

Originally posted by: SkyTearer Lol mate I lived in Florida for 6 years, I know all about America, and look at the facts here, who has made comments like that? All Americans except for one Brit

feel free to insult the UK all u want, I'm not easily offended, I'm just trying to tell the facts. Have u ever watched Fox news? Or a Cheney, Bush, or Rumsfeld speech? Talk to some people in the South, the majority will tell u they want to bomb all the middle east or something like that. The majority philosophy at my old High School was that we should nuke them all, that is disgustingquote>

Six years in the US is hardly enough time to learn "all about America," especially considering intelligent, middle-aged adults have admitted that there are still aspects of this country and its people that confuse them.  Fox news does not have an indomitable grip on the American news media, so I can't see how they count as the primary media view of America.  Also, Cheney, Bush, and Rumsfeld aren't really popular, so they don't really reflect the majority opinion.  I've lived in the South my entire life, and I haven't met anyone yet who has said the answer is to obliterate the Middle East.  And the opinion of your former high school is hardly sufficient evidence of the prevailing opinions of the thousands of high schools across the American south.  Frankly, insufficient evidence has been presented to make such sweeping generalizations.

[Floidiot92 0]

Originally posted by: dbranch We were bombed.  If we leave Iraq, they win.  And they'll be able to organize freely.  And when a democrat enters office that is exactly what will happen...quote>

 

That is the absolute perfect point, cause more and more everyday, we are slowing their activities down and preventing them from planning more 9/11s on America or Europe. So if a certain someone if he/she won a certain contest, and they decided to pull out of the war, then they are just going to hit us all over again-maybe it wont just be the US this time either.

[SkyTearer 10]

You make everyone in the country seem so educated about the situation, last time I checked, a very large percentage of Americans couldnt even pick out the middle east on a map, and no I'm not pulling that out of thin air, I've talked to loads of ppl in the US who's geography skills were limitedd to the US states and seen atleast a dozen + videos of random interviews of US ppl, and yes they could be biased, I believed that at first, then I went inside a wall mart... lol

Also, have u ever heard of Jesus camp i believe it's called? Its a very large "christian" movement in south/middle america which is brainwashing children and teenagers to believe muslims are evil and that it is a war against christianity, that is true.

I'm sorry I guess I'm wrong, but just in my experience that is what I have seen, I guess North florida is just more extreme than the rest of the US. Sorry to offend

And I'm sorry to continue to point at the education problem but a HUGE portion of Americans don't even believe in global warming, and I base that cliam off of the fact that over 50% of Americans drive massive SUV's and trucks, and a very, very small minority of those ppl actually live off-road, use them for work, or have 4-5 kids, lol. How can you know about climate change and drive a hummer (excluding Gov. Arnold's hydrogen fuel cell one ) and call yourself a moral person? Its obvious that it's because of a lack of education

[SkyTearer 10]

And the reason I am somewhat anti-US is because it is because of them that 175 of my armed countrymen and hundreds of innocent English civilians have been injured and many died because of terrorist attacks that are a direct result of the US pulling us into this war (Iraq) that really doesn't concern us in any way :-/ I lived close to Edgeware road and was on the tube the very day of the tube bombing, I've seen the destruction first hand and yes it makes me angry

And also two of their soldiers threw a little puppy off a cliff

lol

[patriots_1228 51]

Al queda attacked england because of england. If they attacked england because of america, america would have been attacked. And america cannot force a country into war, the decision is that countries, so blaming your problem on us is pointless, because I don't care.

[SkyTearer 10]

Originally posted by: patriots_1228 Al queda attacked england because of england. If they attacked england because of america, america would have been attacked. And america cannot force a country into war, the decision is that countries, so blaming your problem on us is pointless, because I don't care.quote>

 

Last time I checked, in Al Qaeda'a multiple videos's they condemn us because of our relationship with the US, is that not true?

[TRNSTN 0]

Originally posted by: SkyTearer And the reason I am somewhat anti-US is because it is because of them that 175 of my armed countrymen and hundreds of innocent English civilians have been injured and many died because of terrorist attacks that are a direct result of the US pulling us into this war (Iraq) that really doesn't concern us in any way :-/ I lived close to Edgeware road and was on the tube the very day of the tube bombing, I've seen the destruction first hand and yes it makes me angry

And also two of their soldiers threw a little puppy off a cliff

lolquote>

[Not this debate again -__-]

There's something called allies, when you need help and there is a justifiable war (not any longer) then yes countries do help countries, but once these allies have been persuaded into entering illegitimate wars they can't exactly pull out right away. I do agree with your point however, that The US has pulled in its allies into it's own conflicts, namely Afghanistan for us Canadians. There's this whole thing about Bush fighting for democracy yet in many parts of the world "democracy" in his sense are not the case, yet I don't see him fighting any Chinese wars (ahem).

And about the puppy throwing, it's been brought up before about military behaviour as a whole and the immature and disgusting behaviour of individual soldiers overseas. Little boys who don't know jack about the world and think they're on vacation with a gun rounding up points. These little boys are a very small minority of the military for any country and should not be used as a basis for an entire professional army- mostly made up of very respectable and brave men and women. However if you say "a group is only as strong as it's weakest member", could say that discipline or supervision is not as strict across the board. But, there are so many circumstances and variations it's very hard to generalize like that.

[fukuda 351]

Al Qaeda's target is "western civilization" not US and their allies, they already planned attacking anti-Iraq War countries, like France.

And I already explained my point of view on that puppy video, I'm not going to repeat it here

[belfastuniguy 18]

Lol mate I lived in Florida for 6 years, I know all about America, and look at the facts here, who has made comments like that? All Americans except for one Britquote>

That better not mean me!

feel free to insult the UK all u want, I'm not easily offendedquote>

Well firstly Patriots wouldn't do such a thing, also many people may be offended so if anyone is to be insulted then it will be you and not an entire nation. Though you seem to readily do so to Americans. Yes it is true that some are not very well informed but the same goes for a lot of people in every country round the world not just exclusively Americans.

And the reason I am somewhat anti-US is because it is because of them that 175 of my armed countrymen and hundreds of innocent English civilians have been injured and many died because of terrorist attacks that are a direct result of the US pulling us into this war (Iraq) that really doesn't concern us in any way :-/ I lived close to Edgeware road and was on the tube the very day of the tube bombing, I've seen the destruction first hand and yes it makes me angry

And also two of their soldiers threw a little puppy off a cliff

lolquote>

Well firstly the British Parliament voted to take the United Kingdom to war. Many protested but also remember that in the election that followed the government that took us to war was voted back into power. Also...the army understand that people will die in war, they know that when they sign up and are trained to avoid it as well as deal with it. The terrorists attacks on the United Kingdom is not the fault of the United States and to make such a claims grossly ignorant and incorrect. It would seem you distasteful anti-Americanism has influenced your views on many issues resulting in inaccuracies.

[SkyTearer 10]

Originally posted by: fukuda Yes, but you weren't forced by the US to go into the war, it was UK's decision...

And Al Qaeda's target is "western civilization" not US and their allies, they already planned attacking anti-Iraq War countries, like France.quote>

 

Attacking France?? Really I've never heard of that, shocking

[fukuda 351]

Yes, Spain and UK weren't the only european countries which Al Qaeda's planned to attack (and failed), wait I'm searching some information about the several failed attempts of Al Qaeda in europe.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Al-Qaeda 'issues France threat'

Zawahiri urges Algerian militants to crush "French crusaders"

Al-Qaeda's deputy leader has claimed that a radical Algerian Islamist group has joined al-Qaeda and is being urged to punish France, it has emerged.

Ayman al-Zawahiri appeared in a video on a website on the fifth anniversary of the 11 September attacks.

In the tape, he issued a warning of new attacks targeting Israel and the Gulf.

Although France's government opposed the US-led war in Iraq, French officials believe the country is still a target for Islamist militants.

In the video, Zawahiri says: "Osama Bin Laden has told me to announce to Muslims that the GSPC [the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat] has joined al-Qaeda," according to the transcript of his message given by the AFP news agency.

"This should be a source of chagrin, frustration and sadness for the apostates [of the regime in Algeria], the treacherous sons of [former colonial power] France."

He urges the group to become "a bone in the throat of the American and French crusaders".

We pledge allegiance to Sheikh Osama Bin Laden... Our soldiers are at his call so that he may strike who and where he likes GSPC statement

"We pray to God that our brothers from the GSPC succeed in causing harm to the top members of the crusader coalition, and particularly their leader, the vicious America," he says.

Anne Giudicelli, head of the Terrorisc security consultancy who reviewed the whole tape, told Le Figaro newspaper the anti-France message had dominated the homepage of the website used by the GSPC for the past few days.

On Thursday, the GSPC pledged its allegiance to Osama Bin Laden and vowed to pursue jihad in Algeria, according to a statement posted on the internet, AFP reports.

"We pledge allegiance to Sheikh Osama Bin Laden... We will pursue our jihad in Algeria. Our soldiers are at his call so that he may strike who and where he likes," said the statement, signed by Abu Mossaab Abdelwadud, the emir of the group.

'High threat'

[SkyTearer 10]

yeah I know they had a failed attack in germany, but France, wow it was anti-war true and true from the beginning. Shiraq was smart! too bad he ended up being corrupt, lol

OMG! Wow that is truely shocking, maybe these terrorist leaders aren't as sane as I thought they were, that is just crazy!

[Frankie_Grove 32]

Originally posted by: SkyTearer Lol mate I lived in Florida for 6 years, I know all about America, and look at the facts here, who has made comments like that? All Americans except for one Britquote>

It would take far longer than 6 years to truly know all about America, I've been here for 16 years and I still don't know everything about it! Florida does not represent the majority of America. Most of Florida's population consists of Canadians, as well as New Englanders. Secondly, there are far more Americans on this site, as opposed to Brits, therefore a 6 to 1 ratio of nationalities is not uncommon.

Originally posted by: SkyTearerfeel free to insult the UK all u want, I'm not easily offended, I'm just trying to tell the facts. Have u ever watched Fox news? Or a Cheney, Bush, or Rumsfeld speech? Talk to some people in the South, the majority will tell u they want to bomb all the middle east or something like that. The majority philosophy at my old High School was that we should nuke them all, that is disgustingquote>

Fox news provides an "alternate" viewpoint as opposed to our mainly Liberal media, claiming they are the top watched/best is about like saying the National Inquirer is the best magazine/newspaper. Cheney, Bush, and Rumsfield's popularity has been down for quite some time now, assuming their views are held by all Americans is extremely narrow minded. As a life-long Southerner, I have never, not once heard someone seriously say to bomb all the Middle East. Even more pathetic is the fact that you got that view from High Schoolers, and have projected it onto the entire nation.

Originally posted by: SkyTearer You make everyone in the country seem so educated about the situation, last time I checked, a very large percentage of Americans couldnt even pick out the middle east on a map, and no I'm not pulling that out of thin air, I've talked to loads of ppl in the US who's geography skills were limited to the US states and seen atleast a dozen + videos of random interviews of US ppl, and yes they could be biased, I believed that at first, then I went inside a wall mart... lolquote>

What does that have to do with this discussion?

Originally posted by: SkyTearerAlso, have u ever heard of Jesus camp i believe it's called? Its a very large "christian" movement in south/middle america which is brainwashing children and teenagers to believe muslims are evil and that it is a war against christianity, that is true.quote>

You mean Church camp? I've been to several as a kid, and not once was the Middle East even mentioned. If you haven't actually been there, you can't much trust any source.

Originally posted by: SkyTearerI'm sorry I guess I'm wrong, but just in my experience that is what I have seen, I guess North florida is just more extreme than the rest of the US. Sorry to offend.

And I'm sorry to continue to point at the education problem but a HUGE portion of Americans don't even believe in global warming, and I base that cliam off of the fact that over 50% of Americans drive massive SUV's and trucks, and a very, very small minority of those ppl actually live off-road, use them for work, or have 4-5 kids, lol. How can you know about climate change and drive a hummer (excluding Gov. Arnold's hydrogen fuel cell one ) and call yourself a moral person? Its obvious that it's because of a lack of educationquote>

I'm sure the new term for that is "climate change" not Global Warming. 50% of Americans could not afford to drive an SUV, please do not f

[belfastuniguy 18]

Al-Qaida terror plot foiled, say French police

* Jon Henley in Paris

* The Guardian,

* Monday January 12 2004

* Article history

About this article

Close

This article appeared in the Guardian on Monday January 12 2004 . It was last updated at 02:49 on January 12 2004.

The French police are convinced that their country has escaped a planned chemical or biological attack by an Islamist cell linked to al-Qaida.

An interior ministry official said evidence from Islamist militants arrested in the Lyon area last week made it "very plain" that an attack with the deadly botulism or ricin toxins was being actively prepared.

The eight suspects arrested on Tuesday were mainly relatives of Menad Benchellali, the son of a radical imam in the Lyon suburb of Venisseux, who has been in jail since December 2002, when he was arrested during a police investigation of French Islamists' efforts to send young Muslim volunteers to fight the Russian forces in Chechnya.

The ministry official, who asked not to be named, confirmed a report in Le Monde that the suspects admitted to the police that Mr Benchellali was a chemicals expert who had been trained in poison-making in al-Qaida camps in Afghanistan and was actively trying to produce a botulism toxin and ricin.

He had tested his chemicals on animals, they said.

Mr Benchellali's arrest was said at the time to have thwarted suicide bomb attacks on Russian targets in Paris, including the embassy.

But Tuesday's arrests have proved a "goldmine" of further "unexpected but unsettling" evidence, the official said.

"After last year's arrests we thought we were dealing with a group planning bomb attacks on Russian interests, and possibly supplying false papers, money and lodgings to Chechens," an investigator said.

"It now seems a cell around the Benchellali family was trying to manufacture chemical and biological weapons for attacks around Europe."

Those arrested last week included Mr Benchellali's father, Chellali, a well-known and controversial radical imam; his mother; his brother Hafed; and his sister Anissa.

Another of his brothers, Mourad, is among six French nationals suspected of having ties to al-Qaida held by the US authorities at Guantanamo Bay.

Two women were released on Saturday, their lawyer, Jacques Debray, said, but six others were expected to be brought before the anti-terrorist magistrate, Jean-Louis Bruguiere, in Paris today.

About 150 Muslims in Venisseux protested against the arrests on Saturday. Muslim organisations asked people to gather in the market square and read a statement calling the arrests "a message to intimidate all France's Muslims".

Le Monde said the imam had admitted that he was aware of his son's chemical experiments, the products of which were stored in Nivea face cream jars and 70cl flasks and later given to a local chemist, identified only as Mourad M, for safekeeping. Several relatives had helped buy 9-10kg of ingredients.

As little as one drop of the botulism toxin released into a building's ventilation system can be fatal. Ricin is one of the deadliest poisons to occur naturally, many times deadlier than cyanide and capable of being given in food and drink without affecting the taste.

The police are investigating whether the Lyon discovery is related to the British anti-terrorism police's seizure of ricin in a flat above a chemist's shop in north London in January last year.

At the time Scotland Yard said it might have been part of an untraced wider shipment. Tiny traces were found in a left-luggage locker at the Gare de Lyon in Paris in March.

Last week's arrests appear to confirm fears expressed by the French intelligence service D

[SkyTearer 10]

Frankie Grove I said the people who drive them for non-needed purposes is immoral and yes it is very immoral considering what's going to happen in the next 10-30 years. 

And mate I hate to break this to you but most of the world does hate/dislike America, justified or not, and no it's not because they're jealous, lol. Just in my uni a large amount of ppl talke bad about the US on a near daily basis.

And about Jesus Camp, no I do not mean any church camp, it is a specific church society that was widely mentioned in the media a year to 6 month ago, sorry, i went on many church trips myself, church is great

About France.... wow a planned chemical/biological attack, that is just horrible. If terrorism increases in europe, it will be an absolute tragedy and might call for radical actions. One possible solution, detaining everyone known to be linked to terrorism untill they are reformed, abit extreme, but  think it's stupid and terrible that the UK governemnt allows known subjects linked to terrorism to continue to preach and walk free on the streets.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Ahhh excuse me...but what exactly gives you the right to declare that people that drive SUV's or 4x4's are immoral?? People can drive whatever the hell they want, it's call freedom of choice and if they want to drive a great big hummer then so what!!

Yes people should be more aware of the environment but you can not force people to do your bidding just because you make declare them immoral!! We have a 4x4 and several other cars, though the 4x4 is a hybrid, does that make my family immoral??? What about people that have kids and want a safe car?

[fukuda 351]

Originally posted by: SkyTearer Frankie Grove I said the people who drive them for non-needed purposes is immoral and yes it is very immoral considering what's going to happen in the next 10-30 years. quote>

Morality? What's morality doing here?

No one knows what's going to happen in 10-30 years....

Originally posted by: SkyTearer

 lol. Just in my uni a large amount of ppl talke bad about the US on a near daily basis.

quote>

They don't in mine, and we are meant to be one of the countries with most US haters

[SkyTearer 10]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy Ahhh excuse me...but what exactly gives you the right to declare that people that drive SUV's or 4x4's are immoral?? People can drive whatever the hell they want, it's call freedom of choice and if they want to drive a great big hummer then so what!!

Yes people should be more aware of the environment but you can not force people to do your bidding just because you make declare them immoral!! We have a 4x4 and several other cars, though the 4x4 is a hybrid, does that make my family immoral??? What about people that have kids and want a safe car?quote>

 

How is it not? Even the Pope declared un-necessary pollution to be a sin against G-d. And you don't have to have a tank to have a safe car. Bigger is not always better

BTW cheers for getting a hybrid, every little helps :-) and no you're family is no immoral, it's the people that buy huge monsterous vehicles just for the sake of owning a huge monsterous vehicle, especially when 99% of the time there is only one person in it