American 2008 Election

[Micah 16]

Originally posted by: El Burro

Originally posted by: SkyTearer People need to start taking a look at some of Obama's mentors and associates, past and present. Among them: an avowed communist quote>

Since when was that a crime? Got to live with the fact that people are going to have different views on things... just because they disagree with you doesn't mean they 'Hate America'...quote>

 

Your point is right; however, this preacher has publicly said he hates America. You in general can't tell me that "Damn America!!!" doesn't equal "I hate America!" And, yes, that's a qoute (the first one) from the pastor.

[SkyTearer 10]

Exactly, it is not that he has close ties with people with very different views, but that his MENTOR and his inspiration for his book has publically stated "Damn America" and "America deserved 9/11". Do you really want someone runnning the country whose twenty year mentor states things like that? As well as other awful anti-american retoric as well as countless racist statements

[Micah 16]

Hehe... so I heard in order to join this church you have to pledge allegiance to Africa. It will be interesting to see if that turns out true.

SkyTearer: To be fair, the sound-bites can be completely taken out of context. The videos and images make it seem that is what the church is all about... hatred. However, the rest of the message, for all we know, could be about how God condemns those that don't worship him or Jesus or whatever...

[SkyTearer 10]

A true preacher would never use the Lord's name in vain, and yet he states multiple times " G-d damn America!" How is that church official conduct?

[BurroDiablo 222]

I think it might be misinterpretation... while he says he 'Hates America', it may be a shorter version of what he really thinks, simply to draw a crowd and for shock value. He may simply be preaching that he 'Hates' how America is right now and how America has treated Black people in the Past, those are the things he hates about America, he doesn't hate America itself. If Obama got into power, you think he would still hate America?

[Zelgadis 638]

I had been trying to figure out a way to express my feelings about the Obama/pastor thing. But I found an op/ed piece in the New York Times today that expressed it perfectly.

It's in today's column by Roger Cohen:

The difference is that Obama is much more certain and coherent about who he is than Kerry was. He has built his identity in a shifting world; that resonates with a lot of Americans. His radical Chicago pastor contributed to that journey. Now Obama has grown beyond him. I have no problem with that.

That about sums it up for me too.

ISF

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: SkyTearer

A true preacher would never use the Lord's name in vain, and yet he states multiple times " God damn America!" How is that church official conduct?quote>

May I remind you that the government of the United States of America put In God We Trust on its money, and that certain states do that on license plates for cars?

Originally posted by: El Burro

I think it might be misinterpretation... while he says he 'Hates America', it may be a shorter version of what he really thinks, simply to draw a crowd and for shock value. He may simply be preaching that he 'Hates' how America is right now and how America has treated Black people in the Past, those are the things he hates about America, he doesn't hate America itself. If Obama got into power, you think he would still hate America? quote>

And by saying "God bless America"—does that extend to all its shortcomings too? Should God bless the use of Agent Orange? Should he bless measures implemented to prevent poor people from voting?

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: krbeMay I remind you that the government of the United States of America put In God We Trust on its money, and that certain states do that on license plates for cars? quote>

Yes, you may. But what does that have to do with anything?

And by saying "God bless America"—does that extend to all its shortcomings too? Should God bless the use of Agent Orange? Should he bless measures implemented to prevent poor people from voting?quote>

"God Bless America" refers to America as the whole package deal, not something specific we did or are doing, or any particular aspect of what we were or are.

Nothing is perfect. Anything human will have its flaws. The point is that we're supposed to have so much more to be proud of than we have to be ashamed of.... although that is, of course, a refutable claim. Especially considering how unpopular we are these days.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Originally posted by: krbeMay I remind you that the government of the United States of America put In God We Trust on its money, and that certain states do that on license plates for cars? quote>

Yes, you may. But what does that have to do with anything?

And by saying "God bless America"—does that extend to all its shortcomings too? Should God bless the use of Agent Orange? Should he bless measures implemented to prevent poor people from voting?quote>

"God Bless America" refers to America as the whole package deal, not something specific we did or are doing, or any particular aspect of what we were or are.

Nothing is perfect. Anything human will have its flaws. The point is that we're supposed to have so much more to be proud of than we have to be ashamed of.... although that is, of course, a refutable claim. Especially considering how unpopular we are these days.quote>

1) If calling upon God to damn America for certain acts are "using the Lord's name in vain", I'm eager to hear SkyTearer's defence for this practice—I wonder how the Lord himself would consider the divinity of money and license plates? He might even have said something about the use of his name—after all, he is the Lord.

2) "America", as the "whole package", consists only of the specifics America did and are doing and all the particular aspects of what you were and are. There is nothing wrong being proud of oneself—but curtailing critisism and questioning ones judgements because oneself or someone close to one refuses to blindly follow the herd, is dishonest (and certainly not worth a blessing!).

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

That church's alliance with the Nation Of Islam and Farrakhan make clear that the pastor in question is seriously screwed up. 

For those of you that don't know about NOI, it is not a Muslim organization. They are as close to Islam as Scientology is, they just borrow the image. Believe me, we'd rather have an actual unabashed Muslim as president than a member of NOI... a quote from the linked Islamic site:

The "Nation of Islam" does not adhere to these core tenets of Islamic theology.  They believe that God appeared on earth in the person of their founder, a "great man from the East", Master W. Fard Muhammad, a preacher who first came to public attention in the USA on July 4, 1930 then mysteriously "departed the scene" on February 26, 1934.  As the NOI website unambiguously declares:

"WE BELIEVE that Allah (God) appeared in the Person of Master W. Fard Muhammad, July, 1930; the long-awaited "Messiah" of the Christians and the "Mahdi" of the Muslims."

Farrakhan used to be a Carribean musician, thus the unaffectionate nickname 'Calypso Louie'.

[krbe 193]

If these Muslims are right about the Nation of Islam, they sound almost nazists in their approach to racial segregation.

According to Islam For Today, Malcom X, which later became a real Muslim said this:

"We were truly all the same -- because their belief in the one God had removed the 'white' from their minds, the 'white' from their behavior, and the 'white' from their attitude."

I wonder if the same was true for the blacks attending the hajj?

[belfastuniguy 18]

Obama says US cannot ignore race

Mr Obama called on his own history in an ambitious speech Obama on race issues

US presidential hopeful Barack Obama has sought to tackle the issue of race and defuse a controversy over comments made by his former pastor.

Mr Obama said he understood the history of anger between black and white Americans but that the US could not afford to ignore race issues.

He referred to the uproar over what he called the Rev Jeremiah Wright's "profoundly distorted view" of the US.

Mr Wright said the 9/11 attacks were like "chickens coming home to roost".

After the remarks resurfaced, Mr Obama denounced them as "incendiary" and "completely inexcusable" and said he had not been present when they were made.

Mr Obama is locked in a close race with New York Senator Hillary Clinton for the Democratic nomination, with the significant Pennsylvania primary vote due on 22 April.

The BBC's Jamie Coomarasamy in Philadelphia says this was a bold speech with considerable risks, but one which Barack Obama clearly felt he had little choice but to make to defuse the race issue.

'Racial stalemate'

Speaking in Philadelphia, the Pennsylvania city seen as the cradle of US democracy, Mr Obama drew on America's long history of racial inequality - and called on the US to move beyond it.

I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community Barack Obama

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

So Obama is admitting that this 'pastor' and his non-Christian rants didn't bother him enough to find another church to officiate family functions. The backpedalling is growing ever-faster and more furious.

I have walked out of churches before a service was through and never returned, over a lot less. I have visited some sad churches, but none like that. It sounds less like a church, and more like a Black Panther party. Don't forget, in Chicago they send ex-Black Panther militants to Congress (like Bobby Rush).

I think Obama's self-famed judgement can now be questioned without reservation. He's no moderate, a moderate wouldn't abide racial hatred despite Obama's rationalizations. He's too far to the left of America's mainstream to win the general election, IMHO.

[crazyyaya 4]

Originally posted by: manticorefan So Obama is admitting that this 'pastor' and his non-Christian rants didn't bother him enough to find another church to officiate family functions. The backpedalling is growing ever-faster and more furious.

I have walked out of churches before a service was through and never returned, over a lot less. I have visited some sad churches, but none like that. It sounds less like a church, and more like a Black Panther party. Don't forget, in Chicago they send ex-Black Panther militants to Congress (like Bobby Rush).

I think Obama's self-famed judgement can now be questioned without reservation. He's no moderate, a moderate wouldn't abide racial hatred despite Obama's rationalizations. He's too far to the left of America's mainstream to win the general election, IMHO.quote>

 

Did you listen to the whole speech? Although I did find it odd he didn't seek out a new pastor, he seemed to have a spiritual connections and was very rational during his speech. I hardly see him as having "far left" veiws and I don't think that statement is justified.

[Duke87 1,070]

Oh this is turning into quite an amusing show: "Barack Obama and his Pastor Drama".

My sister suggested we get popcorn. I think I like that idea.

(I am, of course, referring to the Obama issue and the related politics at large, not this thread)

[belfastuniguy 18]

Its a very interesting twist. Though I was a bit put off when Obama said he had not been present when the pastor was preaching his anti-American rhetoric, but during the above speech he admitted he had been present for some of the sermons. I didn't like that aspect at all.

Also I was ready another article about what American voters thoughts, I'll post that later on. A large number of those asked, both black and white that were going to vote Obama are thinking again. This is going to be damaging for him and I think very damaging in the white community. I think one person put it as. 'We are aware of race issues but we like to keep those views private and not air in public' something along those lines anyway. I don't think those people will now vote for him. He has a lot of damage control to do before Pennsylvania.

[hym 358]

Michigan's and Florida's redo chances are diminishing.

[cityartgrl4 0]

All this flap about Obama's preacher only proves one thing to me and that is that the Republicans are experts in manipulating public opinion by diverting issues, overemphasizing other people's faults and and silencing the press when they have a similiar controversy. This story has been running for a week now, but where was the week long coverage of McCain supporter Hagee, or the fact that Hillary Clinton belongs to a fascist religion who call themselves The Family, who only admit rich powerful people no matter how evil they are, incliuding Nazis, ex nazis, and deposed murderous tyrants.

Obama was doing really well in all over the country, before all this crap about his old preacher. the republicans, hillary included, are scared to death that a man with principles, honor and intelligence will become president. They threatened to kill him in the press, because they know he will only tow the line so far. Yeah, he's kissing up to Israel, like all the rest of them, but he also is willing to listen to the palestinians. They're scared, and that is what it all boils down to.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

You are so wrong. Sorry, but Obama has quite a load of baggage to deal with now, and the Repubs have nothing to do with it. Obama stands by a 'pastor' who spews hate and anti-Americanism. If it was a white church attended by a white candidate, they would have dropped out in disgrace. But 'Obananas' is getting a pass by calling it 'anger'. Yeah, that's what it is. Lingering anger...but if they're white, it's hate. BS! 

Hate is hate, no matter how you rationalize it. To stand by a racist is racism.

[yoder7652 21]

Originally posted by: cityartgrl4 All this flap about Obama's preacher only proves one thing to me and that is that the Republicans are experts in manipulating public opinion by diverting issues, overemphasizing other people's faults and and silencing the press when they have a similiar controversy. This story has been running for a week now, but where was the week long coverage of McCain supporter Hagee, or the fact that Hillary Clinton belongs to a fascist religion who call themselves The Family, who only admit rich powerful people no matter how evil they are, incliuding Nazis, ex nazis, and deposed murderous tyrants.

Obama was doing really well in all over the country, before all this crap about his old preacher. the republicans, hillary included, are scared to death that a man with principles, honor and intelligence will become president. They threatened to kill him in the press, because they know he will only tow the line so far. Yeah, he's kissing up to Israel, like all the rest of them, but he also is willing to listen to the palestinians. They're scared, and that is what it all boils down to.quote>

 

dude....you've been a member of this site since 2004 and only now you decide to post in a thread?

[Odainsaker 2,135]

Wasn't it caustic Rev. Jerry Falwell who said the 9/11 attacks were God's just and divine punishment upon a long-deserving America because of its gays, feminists, and abortionists? Of course, that Moral Majority kook said all sorts of things, often equating Jews with Evil and the Anti-Christ or suggesting that male dominance in the home would put feminists in their place. I cheered when McCain rightly responded that Falwell with those particularly anti-American 9/11 comments was acting as an "agent of intolerance," drawing the hateful wrath of evangelical Christian conservatives upon the outspoken Senator. What are we to make now of McCain's later re-embracing of Falwell in their mutual forgive-and-forget photo-op staged at Falwell's "Liberty University" in Lynchburg to shore up the Christian conservative base for the Republican primaries?

[hym 358]

That McCain is doing the same stuff every politician has done before, including Obama and Hillary?

[krbe 193]

So none of them are fit to be president? Who are you going to vote for then?

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: krbe So none of them are fit to be president? Who are you going to vote for then?quote>

There is a reason why it is often said that those who seek political office are often the ones most unqualified for it.  And as SkiGeek said earlier, there may not always be someone to vote for, but there is always someone to vote against.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: krbe So none of them are fit to be president? Who are you going to vote for then?quote>

In my opinion, no, none of them are fit to be President.  This is where it all boils back down to voting for the lesser of the various evils.

Now, just for humor, (and yes, I doubt the validity of this) but it was reported that Chelsea Clinton went to Iraq and while she was there, asked a soldier what scared him the most.  His reply:

"Osama, Obama, and yo mama."

[belfastuniguy 18]

I was loving the fact McCain came waltzing into Downing Street all 'President like' and had tea and discussed the war in Iraq and how he understood how the British felt, I found that just hilarious....seeing as he is not even President nor anything like our current Prime Minister....wonder who shall pop in next....Clinton or Obama??

[Frankie_Grove 33]

The unfortunate truth about politics is the fact that the "right candidate" just never has what it takes to successfully be elected. You are always going to have politicians with some form of corruptness, thats just part of being a politician. The thing is, you need to be able to tell who truly is the lesser of the evils.

I expect the Pennsylvania primaries to be very close, probably ending up with Hillary in the lead. I believe Obama will probably get a victory in North Carolina, as it has become a very Liberal state in recent years, swinging blue/purple just in the past year or so (however, things could easily turnout in Hillary's favor, but it is unlikely in a state with such a significant black population).

Personally I dislike Hillary, Obama, and McCain. But there isn't much I can do except see which one of the three best aligns with my stance on several issues. If I had my way, we'd have an Independent president. If Democrats and Republicans were companies (which sometimes I believe they are anyways) they would be facing major lawsuits for violating the anti-trust acts, they really do monopolize politics, its either one way, or the other, no room for anything else.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: yoder7652dude....you've been a member of this site since 2004 and only now you decide to post in a thread? quote>

Political and religious discussions in this forum have been known to prod people out of lurk mode. Touchy subjects tend to have that effect. Everybody wants to say something, even the normally silent people.

Originally posted by: manticorefan Obama stands by a 'pastor' who spews hate and anti-Americanism. If it was a white church attended by a white candidate, they would have dropped out in disgrace. But 'Obananas' is getting a pass by calling it 'anger'. Yeah, that's what it is. Lingering anger...but if they're white, it's hate. BS! 

Hate is hate, no matter how you rationalize it. To stand by a racist is racism.quote>

*Legend of Zelda get item jingle*

You got Standard x2! Now you can accuse people of things while yourself being immune to similar accusations!

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

^^ I had to read that a few times to get that you didn't mean me. Or did you? It gets fuzzy for me when it's this late at night.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: manticorefan ^^ I had to read that a few times to get that you didn't mean me. Or did you? It gets fuzzy for me when it's this late at night.quote>

The joke is about double standards in general, not you.

Besides, you're male, so that puts you on the receiving end of the gender double standard. And considering how negatively you were speaking about the race double standard, would I be correct in thinking you're on the receiving end of that one, too (i.e. are white)?

In today's society, black women are effectively the superior people while white men are effectively the inferior people (white women and black men being half and half). Think about it.