American 2008 Election

[belfastuniguy 18]

Listen, all throughout 2007, Bush has not done one single thing right. I really don't know what he has been doing this entire year, because it seems like he hasn't really tried anything to help the country.

Frankly, we all stopped listening to the little troll a while ago. Anybody is better than what we have right now, but I have my hopes for Clinton. Obama might have the personality and charm, but I don't think he's ready for being president. The rest are obnoxious politicians [imo] who hang around with Chuck Norris and will get nothing done.quote>

I completely agree, I love the fact America has the possibility of either a black or female President. However as you said Obama is all about the style and no substance. I just don't think he has the ability, in addition to the experience, to carry out the role.

people don't realize that there are more than two parties in this race. quote>

Very true, though I don't think America is going to vote another Republican administration into the White House given the total and complete mess they are leaving America in, both domestically and internationally. The hatred of Bush is going to stick to the Republicans for this election and the next and maybe even after that...

I was prepared to consider Giuliani due to his management ability, something we sorely need. But his strategy of pinning his hopes on FL has never worked in the past for any candidate. He should have known better. quote>

I don't understand the Giuliani thing. Yeah he was mayor of New York and dealt with the situation very well. However, we can not be certain that any other mayor would have done the same or better and it certainly is no indication of his ability to run the country. Funny enough, the TIMES UK was doing an election special today and showed Giuliana falling behind in the polls on 19% and Romney on 25%.

They also had a very insightful report into the Obama-Rezko dealing. Did not realise Obama profited from a land deal that netted him hundreds of thousands of dollars. Very interesting indeed.....

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Ever hear of Cattlegate? Hillary has absolutely no room to point fingers.

a quote..."an article published in the Journal of Economics and Statistics that there was only a 1 in 250 million chance that Rodham could have made the profits she did legitimately."

[belfastuniguy 18]

I didn't mention Hillary and what she did or didn't do, was simply repeating something I read in the same article.....I am fully aware that Hillary also has some issues to address.

[JanYpe 17]

NYT editorial backs McCain for Republican primary, tells Giuliani to shove off.

Here's the juicy bit:

Why, as a New York-based paper, are we not backing Rudolph Giuliani? Why not choose the man we endorsed for re-election in 1997 after a first term in which he showed that a dirty, dangerous, supposedly ungovernable city could become clean, safe and orderly? What about the man who stood fast on Sept. 11, when others, including President Bush, went AWOL?

That man is not running for president.

The real Mr. Giuliani, whom many New Yorkers came to know and mistrust, is a narrow, obsessively secretive, vindictive man who saw no need to limit police power. Racial polarization was as much a legacy of his tenure as the rebirth of Times Square.

Mr. Giuliani’s arrogance and bad judgment are breathtaking. When he claims fiscal prudence, we remember how he ran through surpluses without a thought to the inevitable downturn and bequeathed huge deficits to his successor. He fired Police Commissioner William Bratton, the architect of the drop in crime, because he couldn’t share the limelight. He later gave the job to Bernard Kerik, who has now been indicted on fraud and corruption charges.

The Rudolph Giuliani of 2008 first shamelessly turned the horror of 9/11 into a lucrative business, with a secret client list, then exploited his city’s and the country’s nightmare to promote his presidential campaign.

Mitt Romney’s shape-shifting rivals that of Mr. Giuliani. It is hard to find an issue on which he has not repositioned himself to the right since he was governor of Massachusetts. It is impossible to figure out where he stands or where he would lead the country.

Mike Huckabee, the former governor of Arkansas, is an affable, reassuring Baptist minister who talks about a softer Christian conservativism. His policies tell the real story. To attract Republican primary voters, he has become an anti-immigrant absolutist. His insertion of religion into the race, herding Mr. Romney into a defense of his beliefs, disqualified him for the Oval Office.quote>

Ouch.

Originally posted by: manticorefan Ever hear of Cattlegate? Hillary has absolutely no room to point fingers.

a quote..."an article published in the Journal of Economics and Statistics that there was only a 1 in 250 million chance that Rodham could have made the profits she did legitimately."quote>

What I'm wondering is how long Bill is going to stay a positive asset for Hillary's campaign. As a former president his opinion is going to get plenty of attention. But his own track record isn't all that steadfast. If something like the entirely unconstitutional Communications Decency Act, which he happily signed, gets brought up again, it's not going to play well for Hillary. Bill isn't someone who stands up well to close scrutiny.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy I didn't mention Hillary and what she did or didn't do, was simply repeating something I read in the same article.....I am fully aware that Hillary also has some issues to address.quote>

 

 Sorry, I did go off on a tangent. (I am prone to this).

 If personal integrity is what we're after, most candidates from either party are immediately disqualified. Especially those who have won in the past, and Bush is no different from Clinton; nor a majority of presidents in the 20th century. Even though I wouldn't vote Liberal at gunpoint, Obama gets a pass on this one ironically, in part because of his lack of experience creates a lack of record. 

But the Clintons at this point stink as bad of corruption as any longtime pol, a Chicago native like myself is going to recognize it from a great distance. It's in our local culture, like pizza, the blues, and Cubs baseball.

Originally posted by: JanYpe 

What I'm wondering is how long Bill is going to stay a positive asset for Hillary's campaign. As a former president his opinion is going to get plenty of attention. But his own track record isn't all that steadfast. If something like the entirely unconstitutional Communications Decency Act, which he happily signed, gets brought up again, it's not going to play well for Hillary. Bill isn't someone who stands up well to close scrutiny.quote>

 

According to NPR, even some Democrats are having a real problem with Bill lying his rear end off everywhere he goes about Obama, and then Hillary denying it. It is a strategy, a very cynical one, to keep Obama so busy putting out fires that it slows down his campaign. He wouldn't be doing this without Hillary's expressed consent. The way this is turning out, I would expect that even the Left can no longer ignore the depths to which they have sunk in this exercise in blind, greedy ambition. They should be ashamed of themselves IMHO.

[JanYpe 17]

Originally posted by: manticorefan  It is a strategy, a very cynical one, to keep Obama so busy putting out fires that it slows down his campaign. He wouldn't be doing this without Hillary's expressed consent. quote>

It's not just slowing him down. If they get Obama caught up in mudslinging, then his carefully crafted message of change and his image of  "I'm not a usual, slick and dirty politician" will disappear like snow for the sun.

The way this is turning out, I would expect that even the Left can no longer ignore the depths to which they have sunk in this exercise in blind, greedy ambition. They should be ashamed of themselves IMHO.quote>

If they keep up the infighting for too long, it can get the Dems a lame duck president at best, and another Republican at 1600 Penn Ave at worst.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

people don't realize that there are more than two parties in this race. quote>

Very true, though I don't think America is going to vote another Republican administration into the White House given the total and complete mess they are leaving America in, both domestically and internationally. The hatred of Bush is going to stick to the Republicans for this election and the next and maybe even after that...quote>

Whoa - wait a second.  You really need to come to America and see things for yourself before you go making such a rash statement.

Everyone basically thinks that Bush sucks.  This much we're all agreed on.  But, whether a Democrat wins or not is dependent on who they nominate.  If past indications are any prediction of the future, Hillary is nigh unto unelectable.  Hillary is not winning states by much, and there's a reason for that.  Not that long ago, when it became patently clear that Hillary would run for office at some point in the future, polls started coming out asking Democrat males if they'd vote for Hillary for President if the party gave her the nod.  The vast majority of them said that they'd either vote for someone else or they wouldn't vote at all.  If that holds up to be true, there's no way she can be elected.  She'd get maybe 30 - 40% of the votes, which wouldn't cut it.

The Democrats will only give Hillary the nod if they think that she can over come the whole issue with polarizing people like bar magnets.  If she can't over come that, then they would have just committed political suicide.  That's not to say that Republicans are going to win the White House again.  I kind of doubt it.  However, what I really would like to see is the Presidency in the hands of one party and the Congress in the hands of another.  I have a feeling that won't happen though.

And FYI, if you think this is bad, Clinton wasn't a whole lot better.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Quick flash, Obama beat Hillary in SC. McCain is leading the FL GOP race.

In my analysis, this was a good development for Republicans. It showed Hillary's weakness, and further marginalized Obama as a 'minority' candidate. 

Don't get me wrong, I like Obama but I wouldn't vote for him because of diametrically opposed political views. If I were liberal, Obama would likely be my first choice. He reminds me of Dennis Haysbert's 'President David Palmer' character on 24. That's a good thing. 

The Republican in me says he is highly unlikely to be elected, in part (sadly) because of lingering racism, particularly in the South and in part because he has no experience in higher office. He only won his first election 3 years ago. He has less experience than Bush did; that was a campaign issue for Gore in 2000.

McCain is looking positively golden right now, what a turnaround in the last 6 months!

[tonto_101 0]

The Republican in me says [Obama] is highly unlikely to be elected, in part (sadly) because of lingering racism, particularly in the South and in part because he has no experience in higher office.quote>

Ouch, buddy. Things in the South aren't as bad as folks make them out to be. I've lived in both the North and the South (currently an SC resident), and I've known no difference between the two except that many people in the northern states believe that racism is a problem down here. It was in the past, but the last two generations have grown up largely outside of such influences. Lingering racism is a real thing, for sure, but it's surely not regional.

About SC though, everyone I know down here knew that Obama would have a victory here. There is a large segment of the black population in SC that hasn't represented itself at the polls for many years now. There's nothing else like the prospect of a black president to get them to the polls though.

The only thing that has been a surprise to many S. Carolinians (and probably most Americans) has been the change in tenor over the last few days with Bill Clinton going on the offensive against Obama. I honestly haven't listened to much of it, but I have picked up on a few thing from the nightly news.  As long as I keep hearing various commentators talking about the possibity of a racial backlash vote against Obama due to his victory (suggesting a black voting bloc) here in SC, I'll be concerned. If that's a real issue then the politicking has only just begun to get very dirty. Let's all hope this is a myth or the discourse can at least rise above such things.

edited for clarity

[Frankie_Grove 32]

Originally posted by: manticorefan The Republican in me says he is highly unlikely to be elected, in part (sadly) because of lingering racism, particularly in the South and in part because he has no experience in higher office. He only won his first election 3 years ago. He has less experience than Bush did; that was a campaign issue for Gore in 2000.quote>

Like the poster before me said, the South is not racist, that is a false assumption with no real backing. It comes as a result of a false stereotype generated by various medias (including TV shows, movies, music even). A friend from New Jersey once told me that her old town was far more racist than anything she'd experienced in the South.

As a South Carolinian (at the moment anyways..) I take great offense to the fact that people trust stereotypes that are 40+ years old.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Frankie_Grove

As a South Carolinian (at the moment anyways..) I take great offense to the fact that people trust stereotypes that are 40+ years old.quote>

I can appreciate what you are saying, Frankie.  Stereotypes are not going to go away as long as people are holding onto them.

Although some may disagree, one of the things that perpetuates the perception of hatred is the stars and bars that some people in the south insist on flying.  Whatever they stood for in the 19th century, the hate groups in the 20th century made it theirs and some people can't get past that.

[Frankie_Grove 32]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek Although some may disagree, one of the things that perpetuates the perception of hatred is the stars and bars that some people in the south insist on flying.  Whatever they stood for in the 19th century, the hate groups in the 20th century made it theirs and some people can't get past that.quote>

Indeed, hate groups have twisted the representation, as well as meaning of our beloved flag. Similar thing happened in Europe when Hitler stole Norway's flag.

Not sure why everyone thinks the South is racist when we had several non-white generals during the war, not to mention how many freedmen WILLINGLY joined the cause, rallying under the same flag that the hate groups mis-represented. (I bet they wouldn't teach you THAT in school......)

[Easy Bakes 253]

Hmm Interesting adds at the bottom of this thread.

3 For Hillary and one for Uniform political coverage.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Frankie_Grove

 

Originally posted by: SkiGeek Although some may disagree, one of the things that perpetuates the perception of hatred is the stars and bars that some people in the south insist on flying.  Whatever they stood for in the 19th century, the hate groups in the 20th century made it theirs and some people can't get past that.quote>

Indeed, hate groups have twisted the representation, as well as meaning of our beloved flag. Similar thing happened in Europe when Hitler stole Norway's flag.

Not sure why everyone thinks the South is racist when we had several non-white generals during the war, not to mention how many freedmen WILLINGLY joined the cause, rallying under the same flag that the hate groups mis-represented. quote>

Probably because, in many people's minds, they see KKK rider on a horse with the stars and bars waving behind him.  Some people in the south still embrace the stars and bars, which appears to be embracing a symbol of hatred.  (and treason but that's a whole 'nother discussion.)

(I bet they wouldn't teach you THAT in school......)quote>

Actually, they did.  At least when I was in school.

[Micah 16]

I hope McCain wins Florida and I'm so excited that Obama won South Carolina.

Sorry Rudy.... maybe next election year.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

I didn't mean to upset the Southerners among us, and I apologize to y'all. My observation was based on the conventional wisdom that a black candidate would never win enough of the white Southern vote to get elected. The split along racial lines in the SC vote bears that out. 

The SC primary means very little; Jesse Jackson won it 20+ years ago. It got him nowhere, fortunately.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Frankie_Grove

Indeed, hate groups have twisted the representation, as well as meaning of our beloved flag. Similar thing happened in Europe when Hitler stole Norway's flag.quote>

Hitler stole Norway's flag? He had enough with his own flags; but of course the neo nazis in Norway uses the Norwegian flag. I've also seen American nazis use it for some reason, but that has probably more to do with the fascination for the old "norse" religion. I don't think anyone believes the Norwegian flag is that of hatred, but the German's are having a hard time displaying their flags. I don't think this scene is something you'd see in Germany in the foreseeable future.

[KingTitan 6]

Hillary, hands down.... She's got a lot of ammo up her um..... Skirt? you know what I mean.... She's smart, and she will be president... If not... I will eat a can of my own worms... M

[BurroDiablo 222]

I think's he's talking about the Nazi Battle Flag which does share some similarities. Its funny when you type 'Battle Flag' into Google though... your given a plethora of Confederate Flags, Nazi Flags and the Scottish Saltire/Rampant Dragon for some reason

[Yoman3 5]

That ain't the Nazi Battle flag, thats the flag of the Nazi Kriegsmarine, also known as the German navy of World War II. (Kriegsmarine is still the German navy, just don't use the Nazi colors )

[belfastuniguy 18]

I have been watching Obama lately and it appears to me that he is trying to be everything to everyone. I certainly do not think he is the next JFK.. as the Kennedy's seem to be wishing. He talks and talks and talks about changing America and the world....but how exactly is he going to do this??

He is a fantastic orator but I feel that's it all style and I don't see being able to make those changes, he will spend the first half of his presidency sitting around learning the ropes and getting the grip of things. This is one of the reasons I am strongly supporting Hillary.

I don't the South Carolina win as that important to be honest is trailing Hillary in all the major states, she has a double digit lead in many of them over him. I also think that his win in South Carolina has made people understand the fact his is black. That may sound strange but I think there has been a slight shift. I would love America to have a black president. However, as others have previously stated America is not yet ready for one, and to be honest I agree, I don't America is ready just yet for a black President. A woman I think they are willing to accept.

To the outside world America is a very very conservative country and many in Europe don't believe that America is going to vote for a black President no matter how hard they wish for it.

I foresee a McCain-Clinton election. It is going to be very interesting. McCain is great for homeland security and defence but very very weak on the economy and while the Clintons were not responsibility for the boom during the 1990's they are better placed to argue on the economy and win the arguement.

It's all very exciting to watch from the outside. I am also taking an additional module this semester in American politics so I'm even more intrigued than I would usually be

FLORIDA PRIMARY TODAY. I'll update once the BBC tells me what's happening LOL

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

While walking down the street one day a US senator is tragically hit by a truck and dies.

His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance.

"Welcome to heaven," says St. Peter. "Before you settle in, it seems there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts, you see, so we're not sure what to do with you."

"No problem, just let me in," says the man.

"Well, I'd like to, but I have orders from higher up. What we'll do is have you spend one day in hell and one in heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity."

"Really, I've made up my mind. I want to be in heaven," says the senator.

"I'm sorry, but we have our rules."

And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell. The doors open and he finds himself in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front of it are all his friends and other politicians who had worked with him.

Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to greet him, Shake his hand, and reminisce about the good times they had while getting Rich at the expense of the people.

They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster, caviar and champagne.

Also present is the devil, who really is a very friendly guy who has a good time dancing and telling jokes. They are having such a good time that before he realizes it, it is time to go.

Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and waves while the elevator rises...

The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens on heaven where St. Peter is waiting for him.

"Now it's time to visit heaven."

So, 24 hours pass with the senator joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a good time and, before he realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns.

"Well, then, you've spent a day in hell and another in heaven. Now choose your eternity."

The senator reflects for a minute, then he answers: "Well, I would Never have said it before, I mean heaven has been delightful, but I think I would be better off in hell."

So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell.

Now the doors of the elevator open and he's in the middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage.

He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from above.

The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around his shoulder. "I don't understand," stammers the senator. "Yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate lobster and caviar, drank champagne, and danced and had a great time. Now there's just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable. What happened?"

The devil looks at him, smiles and says, "Yesterday we were campaigning. Today you voted."

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy  A woman I think they are willing to accept.quote>

If she's named something other than Hillary Clinton.

[belfastuniguy 18]

@ N_O_Body - I LOVED that.....very good

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Yahoo news is calling McCain in FL. IMHO this looks like it's building some real steam. I would not hesitate to vote for him if he gets the nomination.

[belfastuniguy 18]

John McCain has won a close victory in Florida in the battle to become the Republican candidate for US president.

The Arizona senator narrowly beat Mitt Romney in the primary election to gain the upper hand ahead of next week's crucial polls in 24 states.

Media reports suggest former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani - who based his campaign on winning in Florida - may endorse Mr McCain and drop out.

Hillary Clinton won a largely symbolic victory in the Democratic vote.

No delegates are at stake for the Democrats because the state's Democratic Party has been penalised by the national party for breaking rules on when it could hold its primary.

'Getting close'

The BBC's Kevin Connolly in Orlando says Mr McCain's win probably makes him a slight front-runner going into Super Tuesday - but the closeness of the margin may also encourage Mr Romney.

 Observers can expect things to be equally tight on Super Tuesday, our correspondent adds.

With 97% of the vote counted, Mr McCain led Mr Romney by 36% to 31%.

The result means Mr McCain will take all 57 delegates in what is a winner-takes-all primary - the biggest prize of the primary season so far.

The delegates will attend the party's national convention later this year when the Republican candidate is chosen.

Speaking to cheering supporters at a rally in Miami, Mr McCain said: "Our victory might not have reached landslide proportions, but it was sweet nonetheless."

He said he believed he would win the Republican nomination and would go on to win "against anyone the Democratic Party nominates".

"Tonight, my friends, we celebrate but tomorrow it's back to work. We have a ways to go but we are getting close."

Mr McCain's Florida victory follows a win for the Arizona senator in South Carolina 10 days ago and another in New Hampshire on 8 January.

In campaigning, Mr McCain focused on national security and had the benefit of strong support among a large number of military servicemen and veterans in the state.

Mr Romney, speaking in St Petersburg, Florida, said he had telephoned Mr McCain to offer his congratulations.

A former businessman and ex-governor of Massachusetts, Mr Romney has presented himself as someone with the credentials to shore up the economy.

He said he would be appearing at the Republican presidential debate in Simi Valley, California, on Wednesday night.

Giuliani's future

Mr Giuliani - who had put almost all his effort into campaigning in Florida - was in third place with about 15%.

Speaking to his supporters, he congratulated his opponents on running a "hard-fought campaign".

He was non-committal about his own future in the race but officials have been quoted as saying he intends to endorse Mr McCain for the nomination on Wednesday.

Mr Giuliani said: "I don't back down from a principle fight, but there must always be a larger purpose.

"Elections are about a lot more than just a candidate. Elections are about fighting for a cause larger than ourselves."

Mike Huckabee, who won in Iowa but needed a good result in Florida to keep him in contention, was fourth with about 13%. Texas Congressman Ron Paul was fifth with about 3% of the vote.

Mr Huckabee thanked his activists in Florida and said of his campaign: "It's not even close to being over. We like to believe we are just getting started."

Democratic row

None of the Democratic candidates campaigned in Florida after the party's national committee penalised Florida for holding its primary early.

But Hillary Clinton - who has said she wants the sta

[Micah 16]

Yes! C'mon McCain!

With Giuliani gone, more votes will go for McCain because most of Rudy's and John's votes are based on the same part of the Republican party, the middle ground.

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: Yoman3 That ain't the Nazi Battle flag, thats the flag of the Nazi Kriegsmarine, also known as the German navy of World War II. (Kriegsmarine is still the German navy, just don't use the Nazi colors )quote>

Your kind of right, but it wasn't just exclusive to the Kreigsmarine. Its official name is the Reichskriegsflagge [imperial War Flag], It was also used by the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe, but because the Kriegsmarine didn't have an alternate War flag, they could only use the Imperial one

N_O_Body - Haha!!! That was a good one

[Frankie_Grove 32]

Edwards is quitting the race.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy I have been watching Obama lately and it appears to me that he is trying to be everything to everyone. I certainly do not think he is the next JFK.. as the Kennedy's seem to be wishing. He talks and talks and talks about changing America and the world....but how exactly is he going to do this??

He is a fantastic orator but I feel that's it all style and I don't see being able to make those changes, he will spend the first half of his presidency sitting around learning the ropes and getting the grip of things. This is one of the reasons I am strongly supporting Hillary.quote>

Sounds likes Bush's first period, and his father was a president, in addition to W. himself being a governor. The world changes--it's not the same today as it was when Bill sat in the chair. Moreover, Bill Clinton was able to ride on the wave of the longest economic upturn when he took over; the next president will be facing an ever more globalised world and more vulnerable and volatile markets and a different view on the rest of the world.

Also good to see that Giuliani managed to draw five times more votes than Paul.