Bathroom Usage

[DOXXP29 5]

Montgomery County, Maryland, the local liberal county has put a bill before the governing body as an anti-discrimination initiative protecting transgendered individuals' rights. However, a portion of the proposed bill had language removed regarding bathroom usage. Originally, it would've allower a transgendered person (who had not yet had "the operation") to use the public restroom (or locker room or any other "gender defined" public facility) assigned to the sex that the person considered, er, himself/herself to be. This language was removed, however, when the public cried foul and claimed it would allow, say, a male pervert to simply throw on a dress say he wanted to be or considered himself a woman, and go into a female locker room or rest room and do whatever perverts usually do. The loudest cries came from parents who were worried about their daughters being subjected to males using school locker rooms under the pretext of being transgender in order to ogle the girls.

This made me wonder how this issue is handled in other places. I understand, for example, that much of Europe has long had unisex rest rooms. (Please correct me if I'm wrong or if it has changed.) America has always had this ridiculous Victorian attitude that the body should not be displayed or viewed by the opposite sex. Topless beaches are very far and few between and it was only recently that women got the right in SOME places to breast feed their infants in public. What are the attitudes elsewhere? I personally think the whole thing is ridiculous. Everyone, of course, has the right to expect some degree of privacy (contrary to what the Bush administration has said, as noted in another thread today), but how should it be applied a) in cases where a person doesn't care if his/her body is seen by others and b) in cases where we now have a group of people who have come out into the open about their gender preference, which may be different that their anatomy?

I don't think anyone should be discriminated against for their sexual or gender preferences. But how does the right to use the bathroom of one's chosen gender coexist with another's right to privacy? In Montgomery County, it was determined that the rights of the majority, who favoured privacy from being viewed outweighed the rights of a few, who wanted to use a bathroom of their choice. (This wasn't voted on, btw. The sponsers just decided that the "majority" were people who didn't want their bodies viewed by anatomical opposites.)

Thoughts? A solution? If the language was not removed, how would you vote on the bill?

[your_adress_here 11]

A lot of the worlds problems would be resolved if everyone were naked, all the time.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

     While being a liberal democrat, I would completely be against this kind of legislature.  This idea of relative reality that transgender people have is not acceptable when it comes to issues like this.  Whether or not they accept the fact that they are a man/woman, they remain to be their original gender before their 'surgery', from a legal standpoint (I even consider them to be their native gender even after the surgery, but that's a completely different thread).  The concern that their parents have is indeed very real.  If I had kids, I certainly wouldn't want some sicko trying to pass of as a transgender person stalking my kids.  IMO, this is only an avenue for child molesters and rapists to have ready access to an area where women and children are most vulnerable.  If I were a victim of such an attack, I would seriously consider a lawsuit against the county.

[The_Dalai_Llama 15]

Originally posted by: your_adress_here A lot of the worlds problems would be resolved if everyone were naked, all the time.quote>

 

Perhaps, but then a whole slew of new problems will be opened up if we all wore our birthday suits.

[panthersimcity4 162]

I honestly don't think you can actually "change" your gender, I mean, even if you get a sex change into a woman, you'll still be a man who wants to be a woman

I don't agree with it, men will just put on dresses (which they probably wouldn't do if they're trying to stalk women...) and go into a women's bathroom. Blegh, ol' pervs...

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Originally posted by: The_Dalai_Llama

Originally posted by: your_adress_here A lot of the worlds problems would be resolved if everyone were naked, all the time.quote>

 

Perhaps, but then a whole slew of new problems will be opened up if we all wore our birthday suits. quote>

You mean like freezing to death or dying of sun stroke?  The world's climates dictate what you wear mostly.  After that, perhaps some prudery may arise, but that is a cultural imperative left over from the middle ages.

[david1314 44]

I think we live in a very de facto world and this is very much a de jure question. I think this may very well be outside the scope of judicial matters entirely.

I think we should default to the anatomical question. While there is considerable controversy in establishing a person to be transgendered before a court, there is little to none in the case of the anatomical question.

I think that allowing people to choose based on the perceived ability to claim transgender retroactively would generate far more injustice than the legitimate cases of a transgendered individual feeling uncomfortable in their anatomically assigned bathroom.

Personally, I would think that people who were concerned with their bathroom privacy would extend this concern to both sexes and use the bathroom in private...I don't understand where there is sound logic in protecting your privacy from only one sex...I mean, I do understand the legitimate disparities that exist in the behavior of each sex and the appropriate considerations that must be taken as a result...but as far as a matter of policy where bathroom privacy is mandated, I don't think there is reasonable logic behind the belief that provided privacy facilities in a public bathroom should be adequate to protect against one gender but not the other.

Sooo....if it is to be a legal question, I say keep it simple and keep it anatomical; however, I really think this should be a matter of personal discretion and not of public mandate.

[DuskTrooper 314]

There, happy now?

[hamsterTK 93]

I honestly don't think you can actually "change" your gender, I mean, even if you get a sex change into a woman, you'll still be a man who wants to be a womanquote>

Gender and sex are two different things. Nothing says there can't be a barbie head stuck on a ken doll..

Anyways, I guess for the whole potty predicament I can't really answer since I have no idea what it feels like to be between sexes.

My personal view though is that people who are legitimately between sexes do deserve to be able to choose what room to use. I think common sense will prevail in coming up with a workable law to allow this.

[DOXXP29 5]

PMSL, DT! Hilarious!

Regarding the proposed legislation, after I read this as well as some of the comments here, I was reminded of a show that was on in the 90's. The guests were men who has sex change operations and "discovered" they were lesbians. I thought it was a joke at first, but they were quite serious. That one left me scratching my head. But it did make me think about the fact that one's chosen gender does not necessarily have anything to do with one's sexuality.

Thinking about all of this, what would be the next step? How would "society be protected" from using a public rest room or locker room and being ogled by someone of their OWN (anatomical) sex? Opens up a new can of worms. (" What do I do? My little Jenny was changing in the locker room after phys. ed. and little Sally was staring at her the whole time!")

A simple solution for all of this would be to have single person rest rooms with no gender assigned. I dunno what could be done about the locker rooms, though. (Of course, with the rest rooms, there would always be the "seat up or down" issue.)

[Duke87 1,070]

Well, bathrooms and locker rooms are two different issues. There are already places where there's simply one or two single occupancy bathrooms with no gender assigned. This could easily be done on a larger scale, though you'd probably want to make the stalls have floor to ceiling walls and complete doors instead of partial partitions in that case. What to do about urinals becomes an issue, too. Still, we've gotten looser about those things. There's a night club in the city (New York) I've heard about that has the bathroom doors unlabeled- you don't know whether you're entering the men's room or the women's room until after you've gone in. At the older dorms here at Manhattan College, there are common restrooms, although each floor only has a mens or womens room (not both) depending on which gender that rooms on that floor are assigned to. It's not unheard of for girls to venture into the mens room to grab paper towels, or even to use it if they don't feel like tackling stairs at the moment. There was even an instance where after a whole bunch of girls got back from an outing and were all dirty and sweaty, and to handle the demand overflow a couple of them went and used the men's showers (they're partitioned stalls, so no peeping worries). Of course, us guys are all perfectly accepting of this, though none of the girls would ever be permissive of the opposite (guy going to use women's room), and it never happens. Make what you will of that.

You also have the issue of sexual encounters in the restroom- though these are relatively uncommon in most places. I know it doesn't happen here, people just go to their rooms. Solo sexual encounters are a different story, though. :\

Locker rooms are different because there's a lot less privacy involved- everyone gets naked in the same open area, no stalls are involved. So you can't just go and have unisex locker rooms without greatly modifying the way they work.

My personal conclusion: wait until you get the operation. Then you can switch locker rooms. And if you're gay, it's probably best not to tell anyone else in the locker room that, for obvious reasons.

[Rymac91 15]

@DOXXP29: I agree with you on the single person restroom concept, that'd solve alot of problems, but it'd problobly make things a bit more expensive and possibly cause the problem to worsen(of this fear of exposing yourself(not talking directly to you DOXXP29 ethier) to another person in a public enviroment).

[DOXXP29 5]

True, Rymac, though I'm sure single use rest rooms would definitely help a considerable portion of the population that suffers from parauresis. Although, as far as worsening a person's phobia of exposing his/her body, at least it would help them get through the immediate issue of being able to use the rest room. It makes me wonder...would a person with a phobia like this worry about just exposing their body in general (defenselessmess? Insecurity? Vulnerability?) or are they worried about exposing themselves due to a fear of being ogled? (Don't have any psych books handy...)

Something that I have seen, as Duke has mentioned, is that a large number of the people I know...the majority, in fact.... really don't have much objection to sharing a bathroom. This applies to both males and females that I know. (I honestly must say that I haven't had a discussion along these lines with transgendered persons.) I can well understand a parent not wanting the kids to be exposed to the opposite sex in a rest room, but for the adults that I know, they really don't care much personally. Although I will say that most females I know WOULD take physical action (and not in a good way!) if they were in a rest room and saw a guy ogling them as opposed to just going in there to take care of business.

[ShortStraw 1]

Originally posted by: The_Dalai_Llama

Originally posted by: your_adress_here A lot of the worlds problems would be resolved if everyone were naked, all the time.quote>

 

Perhaps, but then a whole slew of new problems will be opened up if we all wore our birthday suits. quote>

Problems like, How would you fry bacon? 

Seriously, I would think that "Transgendered" people would carry around such a huge list of personal problems that which public restroom to use would seem pretty insignificant.  I would hate to have to be a lawmaker these days...trying to figure out how to enact laws without potentially offending even the smallest and most "unusual" portions of the population.

[Jazzmaster 716]

Originally posted by: ShortStraw

Originally posted by: The_Dalai_Llama

Originally posted by: your_adress_here A lot of the worlds problems would be resolved if everyone were naked, all the time.quote>

 

Perhaps, but then a whole slew of new problems will be opened up if we all wore our birthday suits. quote>

Problems like, How would you fry bacon? 

Seriously, I would think that "Transgendered" people would carry around such a huge list of personal problems that which public restroom to use would seem pretty insignificant.  I would hate to have to be a lawmaker these days...trying to figure out how to enact laws without potentially offending even the smallest and most "unusual" portions of the population.quote>

 

That's the thing though, most "transgendered" people's problems are public.  But that all depends...are you in the one toilet bathroom at the back of a family owned restaraunt, or in the large restroom at the local theatre during the show's intermission???  In other words, crowded VS. not crowded?  In my mind, I would assume (no sarcasm here) that a woman could tell the difference between a man wanting to be a woman...and a total perve.  They seem keen on those things.

-Yoshiisland

[Somebody 12]

well i think that if a man wants to be a woman, or vice-versa, they should have the right to fulfill their fantasies. Let those transsexuals rock on with their bad selves!!!