Follow up to last nights chat

[The_Dalai_Llama 15]

David, first off, welcome. It's nice to see Tilted Mill listening to our complaints and our vision for the game. Now onto business. I think the main problem here is that we're starting to lose many of the options that made SimCity great. Zoning, power, and water grids are vital to the SimCity experience... particularly zones and power since they've been part of SC since the beginning. Granted plopping buildings should be a feature, there should still be an option for zoning in order to make building cities easier since plopping every skyscraper, every apartment, and every house can be an arduous task for many people.

Onto the whole City Life clone issue, until you can release more information on the gameplay, people are going to compare the two. I know your hands are tied, but we need some details on how this game will be different.

We here love things complicated and micromanaged... right down to the last detail. I think most of us here want something that reflects real life urban planning and so far I don't see that in this game. Transportation was mentioned and I have seen a downgrade so far, but I'm going by the few screenshots and maybe you're hiding something from us.

Sorry, David, but at this time, I'm not planning on buying this game, but I may consider it once more information is released.

[Dr. Neitchskrimfrauwnmoya 7]

Dave,

I was extremely surprised when I've learned two days ago that a new SC game will be released in a near future. I kept thinking that there wouldn't be another SC until at least 2010 or more. For some reasons, this was so clear in my head that I had completely forgotten about a possible SC5 because it was way too far in the future. That's why I was surprised. It was like Back to the Future or somethin and I felt like I was in 2012 (but just for a brief moment, I'm not that crazy you know).

Anyway, as soon as I learnt about the (working) title being SC: Societies, my surprise was followed by some fear. In the last two days, as additional informations got released, I got more and more disapointed.

However, I've kept my disapointment to myself -this is my first time posting on the SC:S subject- because I know that speculation is still monstruosely rampant. I'm impatiently awaiting this GFW mag preview before judging anything, and that's what most people should have done instead of jumping on their high horses and personaly accusing you of the homicide of SC.

Okay, maybe after that GFW preview, I'll go ride my horse high in the air and join the accusing crew; but for the moment, I try my best to stay as neutral as I possiblely can.

On another note, someone mentionned something that I think is extremely important in another thread but I haven't seen it here. It's about the several different types of SC4 players. It's not supposed to be 100% accurate, but it should give you a very good general idea of the different mentalities across the SC4 community:

Serious players : 

Those players are fully aware that SC4 is serious business. Deadly serious business. They play by the rules, cheat very rarely, grow most of their buildings, spend a lot of time balancing their budgets and are not afraid of micromanagement. They enjoy the rich complexity of the game and all its subtilities.

Those players will ask you where are the zones and why making the game less complex. They would have loved to see mixed-use zonage, and maybe even more things to manage, like a nationwide budget for example.

There is no need to say that right now, with the little informations available, these players are extremely sad, to say the least.

Road geek :

For them, the NAM is a real godsend. They spend a lot of time building their transportation networks and then they fill those gaps between their roads with buildings. SC4 is really cool for them because it's a traffic simulation game within a city-building simulation game. 

However, the game might also be very frustrating for them because the game traffic engine is far from being perfect. "Oh dear God why my Sims don't drive on my highways, all take those small winding streets instead and then complain about traffic congestion?", or "Why can't my Sims walk more than one block to go to work?"

Never having enough transportation options, these are those players that will ask you about a rural 53 lanes wide higways with HOV lanes dual-networking a MAGLEV train track and a 5 levels stacked interchange over an urban avenue with turning lanes and parallel parking spaces.

Seeing that in the screenshots, no mass transit networks of some kind and no highways were present, only those 4 and 2 lanes roads with blocky 90° "curves", these people are also very disapointed for the moment.

Realism freaks:

These players are devoted to develop their cities as realisticly as possible. They won't build a metropolis straight from the start. They will start with a small farming village that will slowly grow and expand into a bigger city. They will destroy buildings into their old town center to make room for bigger and more modern ones, highways and mass transit netweorks. Surronding cities will be transformed into suburbs.

They will be careful to not have huge skyscrapers next to small houses. Each sector of their cities is carefully planned. They often create extensive storylines with their cities concerning their history, politics and even climate.

The reception of the new SC by these players is hard to tell because it depends mostly on the gameplay and the "societies" part, which we have almost no informations on right now. But the plopping part might not be a really good news to them. One of the latest screenshots showed farms, so it might be reassuring. But what about those futuristic buildings? Those might not be well received.

Sandbox players:

These players produce cities also known as "eye-candy". They don't want a functional city, they want a beautiful and pleasing city, that's it. They often use money and utility cheats and mods (like a lot that produces 1 bazillion power and water for free) so that they don't have to deal with trivial things like waste management for example.

Most of their cities are plopped, some plop 100% of their cities. They are also the heaviest custom stuff users and are the best to find rare, unheard of, Japanese plugins. The only focus here is the look.

Another branch of the sandbox player is the sculpter, who almost only terraform the landscape and plop trees and waterfalls in order to create stunning natural sceneries.

These players might well receive the game because they will now be able to "feel" their cities in 3D and pretend they can walk around their creations. However, not being able to freely draw streets and transportation networks and having the buildings to conform to them might as well be a turn off. If the game is still stuck into a grid, the general blockiness of the cities won't be very appealing to the eyes of these players.

Casual players:

These players enjoy playing SC but don't get overwhelm by it. They build several cities more or less similar, get bored and stop playing. They probably won't mind a new direction for the next game and some fresh new concepts. It might help them to renew an interest into the game genre.

Cross-over hybrid players:

Because in real life, nothing is completely black or white, several players are situated in a grey area and can't fully fit in the above categories. They are a mix of different things, but there is always one type of playing which is stronger in them. For example, I am, myself, one of these. I'd say I'm 40% a serious player, 40% a realism freak and 20% a road geek. Yes, I may be a little crazy but I'm sure (I hope) I'm not the only one out there.

I have very mixed feelings concerning SC:S, but most of them are sad feelings, unfortunately. But like I said, I'm waiting for this GFW preview before saying anything else. But seeing how you people at TMill get involve in the community is encouraging and I'd like to thank you for that.

[Explodingsims 3]

a) no zones.

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157857&postcount=2

Did the Cathedral in that picture evolve from a zone?

Did the memorial on the island evolve from a zone?

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157744&postcount=85

Did this airport evolve from a zone?

Did the super large tower evolve from a zone?

A lot of you have been demanding the power of being able to make beautiful hand crafted cities 'exactly' how you want them to look.

First off, you are taking these buildings out of context, The Cathedral is a Landmark, something that you only want one of, not one everywhere, At least half of this guy's city will have been grown.

And the airport and tower were used in a city Journal, so they where used to make it individual and part of the storyline.

b) This feels like a City Life clone

I can't get into the specifics of our gameplay because it wasn't talked about in the article.  The game has also been compared to many other games.  I will stick with Chris's statement. 

So I must make it crystal clear that, like all SimCity games, this game is a city-building game. It is a city-building simulation. It is a city simulation. It is an urban simulation game. It is a game in which you build cities. Its focus is not on realism and detail (but that's not to say it lacks those things either).quote>

From the information you have provided for us, this game seems to have more of a focus on providing what the Sims need, not letting them figure out what the want and building it on their own. What made Simcity cool was the free market aspect, they provided by themselfs.

The Government should not provide what the people need, that is the plot of the Sims

c) The game will not be complicated enough.

Again the pre-article doesn't talk about the mechanics so I can't delve into details. Suffice is to say. There are pushbacks. It isn't a cakewalk.  Player strategy influences the outcome.

So far, from the info given, it hasn't looked like there is a challange. And having to unlock buildings by doing challanges? That is not what Simcity is about, Simcity is a endless, free game, where you have just about everything you need, and you can build with it. Granted SC4 did have unlocks, but those were normal civic buildings that would be found in a city of corresponding size, you wouldn't find a Stock exchange in a farm town, you would find it in a metropolis

Sorry about the wierd quote in quote thing, but I said every thing in there

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

I see this program, and perhaps a series, as a whole new genre within the SimCity purview.  Because the game dynamics, as described, are so different, I think it is a wait and see.  There is a possibility that both games can be played in a complimentary fashion, or separately as the player sees the scenarios.

As more information comes out, it is clear that I will keep playing SC4.  Whether the new game attracts me, personally, depends greatly on how it plays, and how entertained I am.  Being retired, I have a lot of time to "waste", and so want something that keeps my interest.

SC4 has done that.  Other games, notably CIV IV has not.  Turn based games turn me off.  I do like the feature of SC4 that maps into the first two laws of thermodynamics, viz:

1. You can't win
2. You can't break even

You can lose, but you can't get out of the game except by either quiting or losing, thus ending the universe of discourse.  I hope the new effort will be of the same variety.

[zzsim 3]

Welcome David to Simtropolis !  First off, I would like to apologize for the backlash the majority of the community has given you guys over at TM for the last few days.  Right now we have calmed down a bit, and I think a lot of us look forward to working with you guys to make this the best game possible.  Also, as you may have noticed I have some anti EA statements in my signature and avatar, and although I dislike your publishers I do not hold ill will towards the developement team over at Tilted Mills.  From a personal standpoint I hope this game is a success; it may not be like the previous SimCities but I am willing to give the game a chance as something new and different.  As you have said in your post, SCS does not take away SC4 which I can still relie on for my core city building needs, while enjoying this new game for the interesting and refreshing gameplay.

A) no zones why?

There are both benifits and problems with not having zones.  As a very meticulous player I often plop many of my more intricate neighborhoods to get the look just the way I want it.  On the other hand I also enjoy the satisfaction of seeing my city truely grow thanks to the foundation I have provided.  If SCS can deliver this same kind of satisfaction without zones, then that would definetly be a plus.

B) This feels like a City Life clone.

While the visual style (so far atleast) looks pretty similiar to CL, I know that we do yet not have the full information on the gameplay, so it is far too early to make that assumption.  I trust that you guys are trying your best to bring us something that is truely new, so I'm sure that in the end this game will differ from CL.

C) This game won't be complicated enough.

Again, based on your comments I can tell that we have no where near enough information to make that assumption.  From your post I can tell that this game is much deeper than what has been revealed to us.

D) Modability is king!

Absolutely true!  People wouldn't be playing SC4 to this day if we did not have the resources to add in our own custom content.  Just browse the STEX and you will see all of the varaity that user created content has brought to the game.  We understand that it is impossible for you guys to bring us everything everyone of us desires right at release, but if you give us the options to change things to just the way we like, then that wouldn't be a problem.

Finally there is another thing you have not talked about yet, but that is on the mind of almost every SC player: transportation.  Ultimatly pipes and power lines, although missed, are not a deal breaker with this game, but an over simplified transportation system is.  This is the area that gives me the greatest concern from the screenshots you have posted, and has so far left me the most dissappointed.  We need highways, roads, streets, avenues, rail, light rail, subways, airports, sea ports, elevated rail, diagonal options at the very least.  At the most we want freeform (gridless) road laying, roundabouts, plenty of interchange options, realistically scaled airports, and a great variaty of options to customize out networks (look at the Network Addon Mod, and you will see the kinds of things we want in terms of transportation options).

Thank you for listening, and I hope that you will take in to consideration what us the fans have asked for.

[MINIggy03 227]

a) no zones.

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157857&postcount=2

Did the Cathedral in that picture evolve from a zone?

Did the memorial on the island evolve from a zone?

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157744&postcount=85

Did this airport evolve from a zone?

Did the super large tower evolve from a zone?

A lot of you have been demanding the power of being able to make beautiful hand crafted cities 'exactly' how you want them to look.

Two days ago the community was in an uproar because they didn't like the thatched roof house.

Well the good news is you don't have to put down the thatched roof house!quote>

Wow I feel sort of insulted by this...I feel like you are taking a personal attack at the SC community by making us feel hypocritical.  Zones and RCI growth is what Simcity is about.  It isn't about plopping in a house here and there.  It's about being able to see the growth develop in your city.  That is the SC experience.  The experience of not knowing what's going to develop where. 

There's also another issue with ploppables.  Less variety.  Your game SC:Societies is already plagued with repetitive buildings, something that City Life had an issue with, but SC4 did a great job at not doing.  

There's also no surprise to what shows up in your cities.  You don't get that mystery anymore.  You already know what's going to go where because you are plopping where things go.  I don't like that, it's why I didn't like City Life.  It kills the immersive experience, the wonder, the excitement of not knowing what's going to show up.  It's why I only download growable lots for SC4.  I dislike plopping commerce, industry and resi.  It's just not fun IMO unless I want to build a city to my exact detail.

Others may enjoy plopping everything, but it ruins the atmosphere of what a Simcity game is about. 

[Ded 30]

Sim City is about simulating a city. Not necessarily to a point where it is realistic (though the community tries its best), but to a point where we can relate to our own cities as organisms. They have Life, they have veins/arteries, limbs, cells, neurons and so forth (metaphorically speaking, of course). The concern of the community over plopping these features is that it stops the natural growth of a city, which of course, is how we all started playing the game, no matter how we play it now.

Its an extremely valid concern - the best city planners will tell you that cities do live and breathe, just not literally.

[Hardin 0]

Originally posted by: DavidBeebe

a) no zones.

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157857&postcount=2

Did the Cathedral in that picture evolve from a zone?

Did the memorial on the island evolve from a zone?

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157744&postcount=85

Did this airport evolve from a zone?

Did the super large tower evolve from a zone?

A lot of you have been demanding the power of being able to make beautiful hand crafted cities 'exactly' how you want them to look.

Two days ago the community was in an uproar because they didn't like the thatched roof house.

Well the good news is you don't have to put down the thatched roof house!

quote>

I didn't download that cathedral or that airport. I rarely ever put down landmarks and I liked the zoning in my cities. I never plopped down RCI buildings and I zoned my airports. I don't like the way you are defending yourself by using pictures of downloadable content to defend your no zoning postion.

[Gman55 0]

David: First of all welcome to SimTrop and I think it's really cool how you guys are talking to the community.

I have an issue with one of your points. You point out how the cathedral and airport didn't evolve from zones. This is true. But also keep in mind that not every SimCity player enjoys plopping down tons of buildings. I know many SimTrop members love downloading custom buildings and constructing these elaborate, beautiful cities and sharing them with us. Personally, I find the plopping process tedious. I play SimCity to grow an ideal city, to let my Sims surprise me. That's why I only download growables from the STEX.

But that's the great thing about SimCity 4: it has zones BUT still appeals to players who enjoy plopping down their perfect city.

I just wanted to clarify this because it sounds as if you think all SimCity players plop stuff down.

[ccecill 52]

Yay! Welcome to ST!

[JitteryJoe 0]

Now I've only recently joined the community, but I do have some relatively strong opinions about this sequel. Before I start, I personally think it's great that the developers are listening to the fanbase, and getting involved with the community. This is a very friendly approach compared to some developers, so you have my respect David, especially after the more vocal complaints.

Originally posted by: DavidBeebe 

a) no zones! (why?!)quote>

I can understand where all the arguments against the zone structure, but to me the way Zones work tend to make the cities created look more natural. While there are some cities that do look like someone has just put several similar buildings together on a grid (Milton Keynes, anyone?), but the majority do not. Zones add this natural look by the random buildings appearing. While this can be very annoying at times, such as if you're trying to develop areas specifically, simply plopping can also prove difficult because it has a more rigid mechanic, making buildings slightly harder to place. I personally would not favour one over the other, but the balance in SC4 could be redressed.

b) This feels like a City Life clonequote>

As you and many others have said, it is way too early to start throwing this sort of statement around. The mechanics of the game cannot be judged simply from a couple of obviously work in progress screenshots.

c) The game will be not complicated enoughquote>

I think the toning down of the difficulty might help the game slightly. I don't know about anyone else, but when I first got into SC4, just after it came out, I found it horrendously difficult (even with the tutorials). The learning curve had been set so high that it almost made me pack it all in and try something else. Only by patiently using trial and error did I start to improve, and then the game became fun for me. While toning it down too much will be a bad thing, I think if the game eases you into itself slightly better, then it will appeal to a wider audience than the previous versions.

d) Modability is kingquote>

Whilst I understand that the games you already produce do allow for tinkering, what made the previous games popular with modders was the toolset provided. Compared to many other mod making tools, SC3000 and SC4 have tools that are slightly easier to use (have a look at UnrealEd for the opposite end of the spectrum) yet can achieve amazing results. I think it is this that concerns people the most. Without these user-friendly tools, communities such as Simtropolis and SC4Devotion would not exist and the game would definitely not be half as much fun. The custom content also gives the game near infinite replay value, which is why SimCity 4 still has such a huge fanbase years after it's release, just like any other game. If the game requires a great amount of skill from the off to mod, it will deter people from trying and have an adverse effect on the fans.

As I said earlier, I greatly respect you and your entire team for getting involved with the community, and I wish you luck with the mammoth task ahead of you.

--Joe

[naufragus 0]

Originally posted by: Skyfire2275 Welcome to our community!

I am glad that Tilted Mill is taking an interest in communicating with us!

There is one major point that seems to have been missed in your 4 points.

e) Transportation Networks: we want variety.

And I'm not talking about the surface of the roads (brick dirt, cracked pavement, cement)

So far from the screen shots the roads only seem to follow a grid... not even diagonals... This is definitely NOT a good thing. No real cities in the world are built entirely like that. The one thing we have been craving for since Simcity was first out is the ability to draw roads freely. Obviously, I understand this is not easy to do and I will definitely accept the next best thing. But given what SimCity 4 can do, I would atleast like to see an improvement. I didn't even see and two lane or one way roads... or divided avenues, or wide roads with two-way turn lanes down the middle.

Also absent are highways (so far anyways, I have only seen a handful of screenshots)... Which is the other big complaint about SC4... the lack of options to make highway interchanges as they are done in real cities. Check out some of the pictures on Wikipedia under "freeway". I want to be able to make some of those in SimCity. Like 18 lane highways, twisted interchanges, etc. Obviously again, this is not all possible, but I also see that there could be improvement over SC4.

Another point is dual networks like highways over roads or elevated rail and/or monorail over roads. Real cities are like that, and there is not point making these in a crowded downtown areas if they go over empty terrain.

This brings me to my next point... mass transit? Do we get busses, trains, subways, light rail, elevated rail, monorails, trams, etc... Lots of things that are absent from SC4, but could be included. The Tram system is the one I think many of us want. It adds a lot of class to a city.quote>

 

The screenshots are very remiscent of Ceasar IV.... Basically you build on a grid.  No curves.  No turms. You could mananage to get a diag road bit this often caused other problems since the buildings wouldnt fit right.  For the most part you were stuck with a grid and the axis was aligned with the map.  You couldnt decide the orientation of the axis it was built into the map. You had to align your city to axis they decided.  The drawbacks were most apparent with the aquaducts.  Many of my C4 cities were ruined because I could not get the aquaducts where I wanted them.  They also had no Z axis so it was impossible to build them on any sort of incline.  Because of the ways the roads worked you often had a choice of building smart or building pretty.  If the same mechanics are brought to SC5 I imagine we will end up with cities that are basically a bunch of 6X6 squares like in one of the screenies

The screen shots made me groan because I immediatly thought of Ceasar IV.  All of my qualms are based off of my C4 experience.  I am familar with their games and thats why I think the franchise has takena step backward and not forward.

[naufragus 0]

The other thing that concerns me -- based on screenshots and C4 -- about the plopping is size.

In C4 you where very limited on size.  All low end houses were the extact same size lets just say 2x3.  All medium houses were the same say 4X6.

This meant that you had to build in certain constraints to get things to fit.  More often than not in C4 you were left with akward blank spaces if something didnt fit in the grid exactly right.  The only way to fill them was with standard sized decoration tiles of trees and bushes and statues.  These often didnt fit right if the size wasnt precise. The problem with that entire set up was that the sizes didnt match the contraints TM put on the layout.  Some pieces were slightly longer or wider by a square which created the dead space.

With Zoning,  the buildings size themselves to fit the blank spaces.  They could grow to 2x3 or 4X5.  If there is any blank space, you could always use a 1x1 piece to fill it without the gaps you would get in C4.

Now the actual plopping in C4 wasnt that bad or tedious but it didnt leave you with much freedom.  There was a certain cookie cutter monotounous aspect to the layout.  Plop down 6 houses build street, rinse, repeat.

At this point, I can only assume that SC5 will repeat these same mechanics.