3ds Max - Think Tank

[SimFox 802]

CDI_spy:

Take a look at this:

http://www.studica.com/products/product_detail.cfm?productid=51259

http://www.nextag.com/autodesk-3ds-max/search-html

With student pricing it isn't all that expensive! In a year many would go though games that cost much more!

[brtim2 11]

I know this isn't technically the right place for it, but I might as well try.

Back a couple of pages were some talk about maxscripts and what not. For those of you in the know that might have experience, would it be possible to create a batch exporter for gmax? best case scenario it's a simple copy job from a 3ds Max script, worst case it's not possible and I continue searching for someone that has the exporter. I don't know where to even begin, except by asking here.

[autoVino 26]

Well, first off the 3ds max script is heavily based off of the gmax version of the script (a lot of the script is actually outdated and causes errors in the newer versions of 3ds max!).

Second, what's wrong with the gmax script?  To me, personally, achieving what is done in the bat for gmax (ui, lod's to s3d, etc) would be a huge leap forward.

To go even further, to incorperate photon, gi, and fg mapping and to heavily optimize the script.

But technically, it should be possible, but it would requiere you to first render an lod, then render the actual images, and the manually add them using batch commands... Compared to the current gmax/bat renderer its very inefficient.

Thought about this a bit, do you want to use a plug in raytracer/exporter for gmax, like yafray or indigo?  I think it's possible, but a whole lot of work.

[brtim2 11]

If I were to pick someone to respond to this first, i would have picked you.

Wow, either I have nooooooooooooooooooooooooo idea about scripts, or you've over thought this by leaps and bounds.

Basically what I am looking for is someone to help resurrect the Simtropolis Tools campaign from forever and a day ago. Thread is posted here.

It started out as a small script to randomize nitelites, and then other people got a hand on it and started making changes. The last iteration to come from it included random nitelites, random picker, renamer, 'jiggler' of some sort, and my all time favorite, the Batch Renderer. Mind you this was all for gmax so even a layman could use it.

Alas, like all good things in life, this was lost in the forum upgrade as it was all posted as attachments.

All I really cared about and used was the Batch Renderer as you could make many much models, put each model file in one folder and hit render and when you came back everything in that folder had been rendered. Oh it was great. Good times, good times indeed.

Now if someone wants to make this, awesome. Even better, if someone has it and could send it to me, cool shizzle. I think it was like Simtropolis Tools v.204 or something like that.

But like I said, I wouldn't even know where to start. I'm just that clueless. So, if someone could enlighten me (or actually do the work and make me a very, very happy boy) then that would be just splendiferous.

[Mr. Glamazon 9]

Hi everybody!  This is a question posed for all the BATers with 3DStudio Max.  My neighbour has offered me his version of 3DS, but it's version 6.  I know that most of the people around here use V8, is there a difference?  How does Gmax compare to 3DS?  Also, will i need to download a different sc4 BAT if I get it? 

[Jasoncw 11,840]

You should definitely get it!  Like most programs, each new version is mostly tweaks and improvements to the version from before.  6 isn't as good as 9, but it is still much better than Gmax.  I think 6 was released in 2003, while 9 was 2006.  Gmax was created in 2002 I think, and was canceled in 2005.  So Gmax is probably a scrapped down version of 3ds max 5 (I don't know any of the specifics).  I don't know exactly what's in 6, but whatever it is I'm sure it's better than Gmax.

To understand how 3ds Max fits in with BATing, you need to open a .SC4Model file in the Reader.  There you will see a bunch of .S3D files, and a bunch of .FSH files.  Someone with 3ds max will export the LODs in Gmax to make a .SC4Model file with the .S3D files and .FSH files in them, and then the will render their building in 3ds max, and make new .FSH files to replace the old ones.

To do this, you'll need to download and set up BAT4Max, which can be found in the modds and download section.  At first everything will seem confusing, but once you understand what's going on, you'll see it to be pretty straight forward.

[SimFox 802]

Oh there it is... ok here it comes:

well, Max6 isn't really worth it. Since Autodesk took over they have been releasing one version every October. Current one is version 9. but in couple of months it will be superceeded with Max 2008. In my opinion the biggest difference has been made in MAX9 (many would disagry with this acessment) - namely Mental Ray 3,5 rendering engine that is included with MAX. Mental Ray has always been the big boy in the industry - most of the Hollywood blockbusters like Matrix, Poseidon etc are rendered with it. But it hasn't been exactly user friendly, in fact you need to know C++ to get much out of it. But a swanky little upcomer from Bulgaria - V-ray thanx to his cute an ever enthusiastic developer Vlado has changed the rules of the game, it borough incredible at the time level of realism and ease (realtive9 of use to the masses, and became the defacto king of the hill on the Architectural segment (particularly in interior submarket). So MR3,5 was made more "human" by its German creators and been give superb Arch&Design material templates. In exterior rendering it now may very well claim it's superiority once more. So these are HUGE arguments for going MAX9 and not lower. Besides Autodesk offers great plans for students. You don't need to buy MAX, you can "rent" it for a year. for about 180$, which is a great proposition given that in a year time there will be new version! And you have to admit that 180$ fee for a piece of software that retails for almost 3500

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Sorry guys, I moved the message to the wrong thread.

I'd say that 6 is worth it over Gmax.  Yeah, 9 would be better, but what he's getting is free, and most High Schoolers (and most people in general) do not want to spend almost 200 dollars just to rent a program for year, or a little more to buy it, just for a hobby.  Also, whatever he learns from 6 is more "valuable" than what he would otherwise learn from Gmax.  He's not shopping for 3ds Max, he's been offered it for free by a neighbor. 

Also, for Sim City purposes, you do not need to know C++, or much of anything.  You can get results better than Gmax without going much beyond the default settings, and you can do what I do without going very much farther than that, and you can do what SimFox does without going very much further than that.  It's mostly learning the interface and what the settings mean, which there are tutorials for online (and there should be complete documentation included with the program too).

So I say accept it.  Someday you might want to get the newest version, which would be great, but in the meantime 6 is a worthwhile improvement over Gmax.

[ILL Tonkso 1,236]

Depends where you are and what sort of student you are, im getting a 2 year licence for max 9 for

[Mr. Glamazon 9]

Hahahah, two good perspectives on this one!  I guess for me the deciding factor in whether I accept his offer is export times. 

The City hall was a long, painful 10 hour render.  The scaled up version two was even longer.  I essentially had no system for two days in a row.  While I was thinking about my next project, I realised that there's probably no way my computer (though valiant and hardy as it is) will be able to handle an export of the size and detail that I'm imagining the Ministry of Fashion will be. 

So ultimately, what will decide this for me, is (because I've heard Max cuts down on export times by a lot, ergo a larger export is possible, right?)  how well Max6 would export as compared to Gmax. 

[SimFox 802]

ILL:

You should absolutely wait till 2008 is out, cause it will cost same as 9 does today! But there are some markable improvements in it. One being able to handle MUCH larger scenes with like 50-70 million polygons and thousands of objets and still be interactive inn viewport!!! Plus it comes with MR3.6 which has some improvements that will make it not only great exterior render but also worth while in interiors. Also MaxScript creations and editing will be enhanced! So, basically if you gonna get trial version of Max 9 for now and then buy 2008.

There are quite a few things that I do what you wouldn't be able to do with MAX6 without some C++ Here is a simple but beautiful example:

In Max 9 it is mater of few clicks (knowing the interface bit I guess) in Max 6 it is a matter of writing appropriate shader on C++

PS

If that MAX6 is offered to you for free then I don't even understand what is there to think about! Grab it and run!!

[autoVino 26]

I don't see why wait for 3ds max, even if its version 6.  It beats gmax n matter what version you use.  If I were you, though, I would get 3ds max 6 now for free and then if possible buy a 1yr licence for 3ds max 2008.

As SimFox said, it offers new display options allowing it to render tens of millions of polygons (this is a favorite of mine) and it also has a huge improvement in mental ray.  You can now optimize mr sun and sky for interior scenes without increasing fg quality and getting better results (a major reson why I'm gonna like 2008), it offers photometric self illumination options (this is a biggie for me...), and photo realistic exposure controls (also a biggie for me).  I also hear maxScript is easier to use as well.  On top of that, 3ds max now allows you to simulate light shadows inside the scene!  (ther is a maximum for the amount of lights you can simulate at once, but its probably editable and pretty high).  Poly editing is also heavily improved upon.

I'm just hitting the tip of the iceburg with what I explained here...

[ILL Tonkso 1,236]

S-Fox: I shall look into it, but it all depends if 3dsmax 08 becomes available in time for my course (the discounts) I have checked out the videos online and i can see vast improvements, particularly with the viewport rendering.

[SimFox 802]

Ill:

Do you mean Viewport performance enchantments or Viewport Shadows and material bit, if second, trust my not too long but quite intensive experience is no more then marketing gimmick. But performance enchantment is a really big deal for any architectural project.

[ILL Tonkso 1,236]

Its a mixture of both. Brenntia St Georges was a nightmare when it came to moving mass object (i never finished the project to the standard i wanted, it was too slow)

[BAT56 0]

Hello everyone.

I have a small question concerning the export of .3DS file since 3DMAX.

Do I have to save and to export materials since the material editor, so that when another person opens the file, the materials are directly available in the scene?

Because when I import it in Gmax, the materials and textures do not appear.

Thx for help…

[SimFox 802]

Well, if I have understood yu correctly, materials that have been applied to the objects stay applied to the objects when you export 3ds. But, and this one is a HUGE one all the bitmaps you use in your materials should be attached to the 3ds file in question because the are NOT imported or any other way linked to the scene and in material there is just a reference, or path to their location. Also when 3ds is imported into new scene materials that are applied to it would not show right away in the material editor. you have to pick them up from it (with eye dropertool). 3ds is a single mesh format it has a limitation of 30 000 polygons, so sometimes some program do a little hack when model exceeds this size and pack more than one mesh in but this is rather exception. So if we speak of a rule hat means that if model you have has say 10 different objects with individual material on each after the export it will be just 1 object with MULTIMUTERIAL applied to it.

[BAT56 0]

Thank you very much for the infos SimFox, it goes well now.  

[autoVino 26]

Anti aliasing is possible in simcity... just very tedious to achieve...

(model courtesy of patriots_1228)

Although the pictures weren't taken at the same place, it is quite clear that the results are different.  It's especially visible in the palm tree against the background.

Naturally, when you render from 3ds max an image has a set of data in it, the exporter uses the image file and its alpha file.

If the image is anti aliased, then the alpha file also has anti aliasing in it.  An alpha file is basically transparency and if the white is anti aliased against the black then theoreticly it should work every time in the game.  Unfortunatly, transparency is turned off by default in the s3d files, and they have to be turned on in order to achieve anti aliasing in the game.

(I won't get into how to turn on transparency here... I'm no expert at that)

[autoVino 26]

after some time...
more on this: The anti aliasing does have a problem though with the night view.  The clouds or similar background color that isn't black are copied into the night alpha file.  Because of how I got anti aliasing, they will show up as a "ghost" in the model's s3d at night.  If they were made black by default it would work, but if they have non black color to them it won't work.
It can be fixed though with careful planning.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Sorry, I didn't comment!  This is looking really cool.  How do you turn on transparency?  You say you don't know how, but you must have to get that effect...

[autoVino 26]

I don't really know the how and why behind it, but I took one of the semi-transparent trainstations, compared the s3d files with the normal s3d files and saw that there are some differences in how the alpha files are applied.  It's not hard to change it, it's just that it takes a good hour to do it; It's extrememly tedious.  With a good anti-aliasing setup in 3ds max and this you can acheive very nice results.  I'm currently doing some more testing on it to see if I can perfect it.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Ok everyone, some bad news.

We talked before about how the .FSH program does a bad job at converting the bitmaps.  So today I went and used Photoshop to convert all of the bitmaps to 16 bit (256 color) bitmaps.  Then I ran the .bat file, and every single one was "Not a 24 bit bitmap!" "Unsuccessfully terminated!" 

No .FSH files were created for the ones I had converted.  I converted them by simply opening them, and going File>Save As and then saving them as the same name (replacing) but at 16 bit.  The fshtoolreadme.txt confirms the error.

However, further in the readme, it talks about editing index.fsh.

- bitmap entry format codes: (add 0x80 == compressed bitmap)

    60  DXT1 compressed

    61  DXT3 compressed (with alpha channel)

    6D  16-bit 4:4:4:4 (with alpha channel)

    78  16-bit 0:5:6:5

    7B  8-bit (with palette)

    7D  32-bit 8:8:8:8 (with alpha channel)

    7E  16-bit 1:5:5:5 (with alpha channel)

    7F  24-bit 0:8:8:8quote>

Does this mean that by editing index.fsh, 16 bit bitmaps could be made the entry format?

[SimFox 802]

256 color is 8bit, not 16 that one would be 65K color.

I think you've struck the gold so to say! I've looked into the index file bu couldn't make hears or tails of it without any instructions. Could you be a bit more specific about what exactly havd you done. Open - what with and how; and so on...

So apparently we are dealing with DDS subvariant - DTX3 compressed textures. And that is another bit where BAT4Max went in a bit (pan?) different route compared to GMAX BAT. In GMAX BAT all day time FSHs are compressed with DTX1 . In this case alpha is a simple transparent color - eg it is either there or it is not. For Night views GMAX Bat uses DTX3 that differs from DTX1 the way it handles transparency - it includes separate 4bit (16 level) alpha. This doubles the file size (DTX has 4bit file color depth).

Bat4Max treats ALL FSH as night ones - all are compressed into DTX3. as a result day time only BAT will have almost 2 times larger size from Bat4Max than from GMAX BAT. That may be something to consider given the size of plugin folder, Loading times and also 10Mb limit of STEX. Ont he other hand it will allow for seriuos playing field for creating "semi-transparent" BATs. I believe that this property had been used to create some of those see through stations. As I understand glass there always had been a separate element (prop) but taking advantage of the DTX3 compression it should be possible in some cases to skip that multi object assembly and simply edit alpha to make certain areas of alpha

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I haven't edited any index.fshs yet.  There's an entire section about it at the end of the readme though.

I simply opened the .bmp in photoshop, and saved it as a 16 bit bmp, with the same name as before. 

There's also an entire section in the readme about BMP editing problems.

Q: I get a message "Not a 8-bit BMP" / "Not a 24-bit BMP".

A: The color depth for the supplied BMP file is incorrect. FSHTOOL needs

   256-color BMPs for 8-bit bitmaps and for alpha channel bitmaps;

   24-bit TrueColor BMPs for all other cases.quote>

The bitmaps we're talking about might be "all other cases".  I'll reconvert some more and see what happens.  But there are also errors about changing the color palettes.

Edit:  I tried converting them into 8 bit, and then it said "Not a 24-bit BMP !" 

[SimFox 802]

well I don't understand what is that point in converting BMPs to 16 bit??

[Jasoncw 11,840]

That was a mistake, I thought 256 colors was 16 bit, but it is 8 bit. Although I tried again converting them into 8 bit and the same error occurred.

[SimFox 802]

well DTX - and that is what inside of FSH in the case of SC4 isn't really 8 or 16 bit color image compression. It is in fact full color one but compressed in a blocks of 4 pixels. I assume something similar to JPG but not per pixel based interpolation. That 3 pixel blocks are responsible for those flat color areas you've seen on you bricks and I also noticed on Red and P44T. Any conversion of source is pointless unless it creates the file identical in structure to resulting DTX and even then it has to be absoliutelly same 4pixel block distribution to avoid recompression. That's a theory... Apparently there is a DDS plugin for Photoshop, but I just wonder what else does FSH container include - some sort of directory structure??

[ILL Tonkso 1,236]

Hey guys! My 3ds max 9 arrived today. The university told me not to go for 2008 if your wondering why i didnt get that. Two year student license,

[autoVino 26]

that is cheap!  why wouldn't the univirsity want you to go for 2008?  more expensive?  Just curious.