3ds Max - Troubleshooting & General Discussion

[bixel 1,223]

I use generic units - no metric or king's (inches) specified and I have no problems. I believe PVM also uses generic units, which is why everytime Simfox receives one of our models he's always grumbling about having to rescale everything. HAWHAWHAWHAW!!! XD

[SimFox 802]

Auto:

Well i thought that at least one reason is the way output widow is set. It is box based on the LOD and script adds 8 units on each side. I though that this is exactly this discrepancy between what is counted as an unit that causes the crash. As I've said if I set my SYSTEM unit in MAX to inches then LODs created in MAX somehow internally are measured in inches anyway!! and when I bring them to GMAX without "converting units" it makes 1 inch=1 meter so 165M LOB becomes 6,5+ km LOD... If I do convert then everything is fine GMAX will only allow export if it is set to Generic units.

It isn't because of the rig, though, I've made inch based rig and it didn't solve the problem. It sits somewhere in the script... I'm sure.

So how have you solved your problem?? by setting System units to meters?

Bixel:

Generic units wouldn't work (most probably - have to give it a go just to make sure). The issue is how the GI light is calculated. Apparently in internal calculations it sets Inch as sort of hardwired unit. All the calculations on how light looses it's intensity are performed with these units. So when you open your Inch scene in max set for Meters (system units, not display ones - these are totally irrelevant) you have two choices to either reset your system units - outcome here is very clear, or to SCALE your scene to work with existing system units. This starts the process that is apparently completely finished after you save your scene. I say so because of GI returns to normal after such a save. It seems that somewhere interanlly it resets all to same inches. because after you open tis rescaled scene again - it shows that system units are meters - but LODs created in such a scene will still be taken by GMAX as ones created in Inch based scene and export naturally from such scene fails.

I think the problem is with this conversion. If I'm correct then it shouldn't affect scenes that from get go and ALWAYS were in meters.

Also Generic units are no good as with those there is no clear way to determine either precision or REAL size of objects and that last one is absolutely crucial in calculating GI. You didn't have problem with it cause you dont't use it (GI that is). You see light bends around the objects differently depending on their size, plus it looses intensity to certain degree depending on DISTANCE traveled - and that distance have to be in REAL physically based units.

But just to be sure I'll give a go to Generic Units I still have hidden hope that MR will consider those to be inces for it GI calculation and GMAX will take them as Meters for LOD sizes...

PS

you can not have generic units as a System unit.

Although I think one thing can be going on here - since you have MAX7 it may be so that then there hasn't been yet that separation for Display and System Units and it came about only with MAX8 - that could be one reason why NightWindows Classique do not work ever since!

[autoVino 26]

yeah, I'm very sure that the problem lies in the script.

But the problem was solved when I switched to system units as meters.  I usually work in inches (american architecture, I'm used to some of the standards in feet and inches, and not in meters), but when ready for an export and lod work I switch back to meters.

[autoVino 26]

Look at this image closely, aside from the brightness of the caustics there is something missing (I accented the brightness of the caustics to make it easier to see).

The mirror gives no caustics at all.

Here I have four glass boxes and a chrome mirror (3", 6", 1', 3', 3" thick respectively).  I also added in an object that will reflect in the mirror.

Why doesn't the mirror do caustics?  It is a caustic generator and it gives reflections.  It's also a MR arch (mi) material.

It's the preset Chrome material with the only difference is that under advanced rendering options the "refract light and generate caustics effects"

is enabled.  Am I missing something, an option that is essential for pure reflective caustics in mia materials?  Or does it just not work that way?

I'm very confused by this...

[SimFox 802]

well couple of things strike me as obvious:

1. why would you enable REFRACTION for Chrome that is 100% opaque material.

2. look closer at default Chrome reflection properties the answer is there right before your eyes...

[autoVino 26]

1. well, it's one of those "just what if..." things... that apperantly didn't make much of a difference.

2. "Ociffer Ociffer, I swear to drunk I'm not God...."

    I feel like a complete idiot now... right in from of my nose too.  Thanks for the help!

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I'm suddenly having this issue rendering.

(LINK TO IMAGE)

It's happened twice, but I don't recall changing anything from the successful renders.  The only reason I re-rendered it is because I wasn't organized well and I jumbled up all of my .FSH files from this building.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

More exporting issues.  I know it's something simple, but I can't remember what I did wrong.  Just ask for any more info about the lights.

[SimFox 802]

it is either FG or GI issue. that 's for sure... In case Ardecila's row house similar problem was cause by faulty geometry, But it can be something else as well. Basically issue is that FG of GI photons can not be averaged/interpolated properly. So it could be setting of lights, FG/GI, Materials, Geometry... the whole bunch...

Try to turn of GI, to use some of presets with FG and turn off lights and see if problem will be gone. Itf it will, you'll know that at least in terms of geometry you're on safe ground. Then add those remaining features one by one to see what will trigger this problem...

This is all I can suggest by just looking at the pictures...

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Mystery with the lights solved!

I de-instanced the lights and they work fine now. I figured it was something simple like that.

I'll go back to troubleshooting with the first one now.

[autoVino 26]

I have a similar problem and I too have instanced lights.  How do you de-instance a light?

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Select the light, and in the modifier stack, it will be bold. Right click on it, and go "make unique" and it should be unique. If you select all of the lights that are instanced, you can probably do it all at one time.

[SimFox 802]

yep instanced lights and BAT are a big No-No. For instance just think how script is turning lights on - as ONE at the time going through array.

and you can still easily control all lights through LightLister

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I'm putting together the files for a TruNite BAT.  The 0000temp-a.png files don't have an equivalent.  It looks like I can use the 0000-a.bmp, but how do I convert it?  Are there any special settings I need to use?

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

I'm new to this so please excuse my newbness.....I just downloaded the BAT4Max v.2 and read through the documentation. I just wonder...do I have to have serious computer knowledge to use this tool? I have the gmax and BAT but I really like to model in "real 3D programs (such as Maya and 3ds max 7) as I have a much easier time modeling in them. After reading some of the posts in these forums, it seems very technical. But here are my main questions....

1. Is it easier or harder to get a building into the game using bat4max? (I have 3DS Max 7)

2.Is it a matter of ease, or final quality of buildings when it comes to using gmax vs. 3dsmax process?

3.Is there a walkthrough tutorial for using BAT4Max?

4.What is a LOD? I hear this term a lot but never heard of what exactly it is. It's not in the BAT mega FAQ.

[autoVino 26]

1. Well it's not hard, but it is harder than just with just gmax ( a bit more involved)

2. both, also it's a big matter of speed.

3. Not that I know of, but the readme instructions are pretty specific and easy to follow, just make sure you install it into your c:\3dsmax7 folder (d:\3dsmax9 in my case) and follow the instructions exactly

4. Level of detail.  The game uses 3d objects with textures mapped on them.  The shape of these 3d objects are determined by the lods (and the shape determines how you can arrange props around it, if it isn't a "box" building)

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

Thank you autoVino! Well I definitely am interested in speed. Been through many renders, and it sounds like only using gmax/BAT method have slower rendering times. I know how it is to not have my system because of rendering so anything that addresses that issue got my attention. When you say a bit more involved, is it because of the set up (initial install) or the getting it into game part?

[SimFox 802]

Mr_Maison:

I've started putting together Bat4Max tutorial set.

First part dealing with setting Max up to work with Bat4Max and some issues that warrant attention like PlugCFG

PDF Version of it can be downloaded form here:

http://rapidshare.com/files/65424336/SimFoxBat4MaxTutorial1.pdf

File is 169kb in size.

JasonCW

Never mind theose files...

All you need is to substitute the 0000.bmp and 0000-a.bmp in all the night folders. and hten run scripts dealing with FSH creation and insertion.

BTW it seems that compression used for FSH in case of SimCity4 called DTX has no variable settings. THat means that quality of images can't be improved :-(

But there is mistake in Bat4Max as it sets FSHTool to convert all BMPs (day and night) into FSH using DTX3 while day ones need to be just DTX1. Quality is same but file size will be only half as to compared with ones compressed using DTX3.

This opens another potential advantage of truNite. With it overall size of Bat4Max BATS could be halved as it only needs DTX1 even for night view!!!

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

SimFox, I read the pdf. you made and I must say....thank you for giving me more confidence in going the 3ds max 7 route. I'm not new to 3D programs but never done any game related3D content with them. Using a real (retail version) program is very welcome for me. I been playing around with gmax/BAT for a couple of days now, and when I decided to try the same project in max 7............it was like ...."what was I thinking?!" I know I still need gmax to get them in game. Thanks again.

By the way...I noticed that 3ds 7 installs outside the programs folder by default ( C:/3dsmax7) So I'm straight on that as far as location right?

[SimFox 802]

Yep you are!

It is from MAX8, first release after Discreet was integrated back into Autodesk bosom when decision to put ion into ...\program Files\... was taken.

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

I just have one more question.......Did Maxis use 3ds max or gmax to make the buildings for SC? I just wonder that if 3ds max is the parent app. to create content for SC, why is it harder to create content for the game than using just gmax? And why does it seem like gmax being a 3ds max based system have compatibility issues with 3ds max. In other words, why do we have to do so much rigging to use the superior 3ds max if it is the parent application? If they did use gmax, then I understand. I like history for a better understanding.

I forgot to mention a issue I ran into during installation. The part where we have to edit the bat4max ini. I noticed that an unzipped folder came with the package, I copied that folder into my C:/3dsmax7 directory. and I moved the 2 file in the startup folder to the appropriate startup folder. Then when I got to the bat4max ini part, I opened it up with notepad and saw that the first 2 things to edit seemed to be pointing in the right direction already but I'm unsure of this.

TempPath=C:\3dsmax5\gamepacks\BAT\Temp\

DestPath=C:\3dsmax5\gamepacks\BAT\OutputFiles\

and

SC4PluginPath=C:\Documents and Settings\Ralphael\My Documents\SimCity 4\Plugins\

I'm assuming that this is a copy of a setup that is working and all I have to do is change the 5 to 7 (3dsmax7) and the name Ralphael to my own that is in my directory. I am totally unsure if I'm right. Was I supposed to use that unzipped folder? And if so...am I right?

[Jasoncw 11,840]

At one time one of the Maxis people said something along the lines of him being jealous of us because our Gmax had more power than whatever program they used (I don't recall them saying).  Perhaps just a really old version of 3ds Max or something.  But they definitely did not use Gmax.

About compatibility, Gmax was specifically designed to be non-compatible with everything under the sun.  Gmax is easier to use for BATing because it forces you not to deal with anything.  With 3ds Max and BAT4Max, you are forced to be more involved, but with the normal BAT it just does it all automatically.  It's a double edged sword, since you have more control, but at the cost of complication.

For your paths, if the path is right, then I guess it should be fine.  Follow through with the installation and see if it works right.

SimFox, the tutorial is looking good so far.

[SimFox 802]

Gmax is "easier" just because the script was made by professional script writers for it. Actually you can see that it was adopted from MAX - and I'm 99,9% sure that that what Was used as a tool in making the original game content. BAT, I mean original has some DLLs that deal with issues like file naming, slicing, some night composing and FSH encoding. When BAT was again adopted to work with MAX those Maxis proprietary DLLs, naturally, wouldn't work so that somewhat complex procedure was devised to get around it. Also some of the procedures were misunderstood and mistakes were made like say using DTX3 compression for all textures - ballooning the size of resulting SC4Model files.

Also over the time some changes occurred withing MA- like an introduction of system and display units that made new max incompatible with some features of original BAT like NightWindows.

Basically Bat4Max is long overdue for serious reshuffle and cleaning, but we would need help of some professionals to get it done. Currently the problem is part of the script dealing with output window size.

In reality by NO means GMAX is easier. in fact it is more complicated cause its instruments are fare more primitive as compared of those available in current versions of MAX.

As for your setting of Bat4Max - read instructions carrefuly. they are absolutely explicit. just follow then and everything will be right.

[Pokeking3000 0]

what do I do if i'm missing the system bitmap?

[zi_thedragon 0]

can someone help me this error keeps comeing up

-0x5ad0e817_0x14362ae3_0x30000.SC4Model cannot be found in plugin directory

I have checked my plugin directory and it is there and the batformax points to the directory

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I think there needs to be an actual name before the file.  Like "MySweetBAT-90213p498123p4981p23908412398049.SC4Model" instead of "-8712384710238471230719034.SC4Model"

[SimFox 802]

yep, Jason is totally right! You use incomplete file name. which is as well as using something totally different, for computer if it isn't to the letter it is not same.

[zi_thedragon 0]

thanks it works now

[SimRabbit123 6]

This might sound stupid, but how would you render a night preview?

I have the BAT4MAX properly installed on my 3ds Max 7.

Thanks!

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Check out the BAT Mega FAQ.