Industry Quadrupler Mod

[ShermanM4 0]

Hi all,
I am sure there is an easy explanation to this problem.  I am developing the London region, and I have 6 maps developed with a regional population of 180,000 on hard.  I downloaded the Industry Quadrupler Mod because I thought the industry generally employs too few people.  An unintended consequence of this has led most of my cities to double, triple, and quadruple their incomes.  This makes the game for too easy and increases the wealthy by leaps and bounds.  Is there another mod that counteracts this, or is there another way to stop this rapid income growth?  

ShermanM4

[DOXXP29 5]

Welcome ShermanM4. You can remove the mod and the game will go back to the way it was before you installed it. Just find it in the programs folder and drag it to another folder (I suggest making a new one labeled for it) where you can keep it in case you ever want to use it again.

[jmjselect 0]

I don't know of any mods to do what you ask but why not build a whole bunch of power plants, or costly buildings, to offset the increase?

[Sam 163]

Industry is a good money spinner. I guess you could make a lot that requires a lot of money to be spent on it each month, eg a park but with a very high cost per month. It sounds like you need the reverse of a money making lot. I don't actually know of one off hand though, since most people want the ones that make money. This is the first time I have heard someone who actually wants to lose it.

However a region with six cities and a population of 180 000 making that much profit sounds quite strange. There may be something else wrong. I would suggest checking the budgets of each city to see if there are any growable business deals or other income sources in your city that you are not aware of. There may be a radical income or badly modded lot in your plugins that is growing in your cities and causing the income to be too high.

I use the industry quadrupler mod too, but I don't have this problem with it, which is why I suspect another cause.

[Peorth 17]

I don't think there's anything mysterious at all with ShermanM4's experience. According to the documentation, the income from the modded industrial buildings are doubled. Furthermore, if you quadruple the job capacity, naturally you'll draw in more sims as employees, which of course pay residential taxes. Thus the large increases from the baseline incomes isn't surprising, and should be most evident in cities with numerous industrial jobs. Also, If you've been playing with the quadrupler from the beginning, the impact of the mod can easily be missed.

Anyway, I don't know of any mod that subtracts money. You'll probably have to make one yourself.

[Jintoh35 0]

I'm pretty new to SC4, I have played the other flavors for yrs and I"m used to playing just one zone (started to branch out into the regional play now).  I used this mod and at first my city was also flooded with sims/income but it lvled out and with more sims comes more problems (traffic, health, crime, etc so for my city of 235000 it lvled back out again.

[Bones1 96]

I made an industry doubler mod, one for each type of industry (e.g., you can install just the high-tech doubler if you want, and keep dirty, manufacturing, and farming as the default). If you want I can post it.

I tried to make it more balanced than the industry quadrupler mod.

1. I only doubled the number of jobs, rather than quadrupled them. I found 4x was just too much.

2. I doubled the building values. This makes the income from industry to be the same as the default for the same number of jobs. This allows a "industry city" to be economically feasible, just as with the default game values.

3. I doubled the power and water requirements for the buildings. This means you have to spend the same amount of money to support a similar number of jobs as you would with the game default. (I found this balance to be lacking in the industry quadrupler mod completely.)

4. I doubled the pollution from each building. Again, this means that the same amount of jobs will produce the same amount of pollution as with the game's default. (Again, missing in the 4x mod.)

Anyway, my mod has been tested for months, and works fine. The main difference you'll notice is that you need a lot of power plants to run a big dirty industry area. That's the main fiscal balance I introduced, to make it less of a cheat mod.

[Jintoh35 0]

I for one would be very interested Bones1 in something like that, I don't like to feel like I'm cheating in game.  I don't mind the fact I don't have to fill up and entire region with factories but some minus to it would be more balancing.

[Bones1 96]

Okay, I uploaded my industry-doubler mod to the STEX. You can find it at

https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/index.cfm?id=15758

[jackel.22 3]

down load my building off the stex , it has 2000 ID jobs so that kills the ammount of space needed for ID. also its plopable so you can put down as many as you want.

*just type 'bmg' into the stex to find the bmg processing plant*

[ShermanM4 0]

However a region with six cities and a population of 180 000 making that much profit sounds quite strange. There may be something else wrong. I would suggest checking the budgets of each city to see if there are any growable business deals or other income sources in your city that you are not aware of. There may be a radical income or badly modded lot in your plugins that is growing in your cities and causing the income to be too high. 

Well sir I dont know what to tell you.  Before I installed this mod, my best city made about $1,000 in profit each month most of my cities were breaking even or making or losing around $500 per month.  As soon as I installed the Mod, I went to go and check all of my cities.  I let the clock run for 2-to-3 years in all of them, and I was pleased to see the little briefcases disappear.  I was amazed too see how much profit, but I was dissappointed so many darn rich people started to move in.  I put a %13 tax on high wealth res$$$ for two years.  This did not stop them from moving in.  

I just wanted to tweak and alter what I considered to be ridiculous shortcomings of the game.  (valleyboy accent)  I mean chu' a factory that does not employ hundreds if not thousands of people that takes up several tiles... whatever!    Don't even get me started on how the game wasnt even playable when it was released, and we all had to go out and buy the Rush Hour expansion.   

As for bad plugins and bad mods, this is the only mod I installed that excepts Rush Hour of course.  Where do you suggest I check for problems?  

Thanks for posting responses guys and gals

[Sam 163]

Originally posted by: ShermanM4 However a region with six cities and a population of 180 000 making that much profit sounds quite strange. There may be something else wrong. I would suggest checking the budgets of each city to see if there are any growable business deals or other income sources in your city that you are not aware of. There may be a radical income or badly modded lot in your plugins that is growing in your cities and causing the income to be too high. 

Well sir I dont know what to tell you.  Before I installed this mod, my best city made about $1,000 in profit each month most of my cities were breaking even or making or losing around $500 per month.  As soon as I installed the Mod, I went to go and check all of my cities.  I let the clock run for 2-to-3 years in all of them, and I was pleased to see the little briefcases disappear.  I was amazed too see how much profit, but I was dissappointed so many darn rich people started to move in.  I put a %13 tax on high wealth res$$$ for two years.  This did not stop them from moving in.  

I just wanted to tweak and alter what I considered to be ridiculous shortcomings of the game.  (valleyboy accent)  I mean chu' a factory that does not employ hundreds if not thousands of people that takes up several tiles... whatever!    Don't even get me started on how the game wasnt even playable when it was released, and we all had to go out and buy the Rush Hour expansion.   

As for bad plugins and bad mods, this is the only mod I installed that excepts Rush Hour of course.  Where do you suggest I check for problems?  

Thanks for posting responses guys and galsquote>

Well I'm sorry if my post offended .  However my comment was based on experiences of my own with similar issues. In those cases the problems turned out to be particular growable lots I had downloaded quite some time before, but which had never grown previously in my cities. When the conditions were right, they grew fairly prolifically. The lots had been modded to provide extra income. Fortunately they were traceable with the help of  the budget sheets.

I'm sorry if my post was taken the wrong way, it was intended to be helpful.

[SamFlash 0]

Originally posted by: Bones1 Okay, I uploaded my industry-doubler mod to the STEX. You can find it at

https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/index.cfm?id=15758

quote>

 

Thanks for sharing Bones.  It is much more realistic than either the default Maxis settings or the industry Quadrupler Mod.

[aminom 0]

Bones1 I just got through downloading your mod and "converting" a region that used the quadrupler by adding more industry and utilities. I am much more happy with this mod because it is more balanced and that cheating feeling is much less Thanks for the mod. The added pollution is greatly appreciated... I "zone" for R$ using industry pollution, and with the quadrupler I couldn't get a nice. big, red pollution blotch that R$$ or R$$$ wouldn't touch

[Bones1 96]

Hi. If you're interested in keeping R$ around, you might be interested in another mod I made called the LessAbandonment mod. Its main purpose is to stop sims from building middle and high wealth buildings in areas that are not suitable to them (and thus decrease the change of them moving away and abandoning or dilapidating the place). However, it also tends to stop R$ homes from being replaced by R$$ and R$$$, unless you provide them schools and hospitals. So, it's easy to create slums with the mod.

You can find it at
https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/index.cfm?id=14931

[Tolomar 5]

1. have no idea what the heck you guys are talking about...actually think you pickin gnat poop out of pepper on this onet toraco's ind quad mod and/or service doubler mod have no direct effect on the collection of taxes in the game...actually they have inderectly have the oposite effect...they will lower the taxes collected, if you don't have the demand to sustain the building at full capasity.

taxes is collected as per the land value of the lots times the tax rate...doesn't matter how many ppl are in the building (baring the building becoming abandoned or delapilated which will actuially reduce the land value and taxes collect) does matter how many ppl live in a home ...you still pay the same taxes if you have 5 or 50 ppl in a building. now the mod will increase the use of MT and the income from them.

when the mod first appeared I actually ran a city before without the mods...made the buildings historical , droppped the mods into the game and had a drop in taxes collected...now this was soon surpassed by MT fare collection increase...and when the cities buildings were made non-historical...it did effect the types of building that start to grow...both in wealth and stages...and those buildings do raise the land value

[ultra 1]

It's simple, in a large and stable city, a sudden x4 in I jobs results is a fast growth and the extra jobs mean extra taxes (R, and the small buff the mod seems to add to the I buildings affected), but if the city starts with the mod instaled, you will have little demand for more I areas, or instaled early on, a similar efect takes place. Both arguments are true, it can increase or decrease the curent demand depending on how big the city was when u instaled the mod.

Another thing about the x4 or the x2, the original mod was x2 and by popular demand a x4 was created, don't criticise the creator of the quadrupler, simply dowload his previous work (or the alternative x2 posted in this thread with the separation of each I)

(edited for typo correction)

[Peorth 17]

Originally posted by: Tolomar

1. have no idea what the heck you guys are talking about...actually think you pickin gnat poop out of pepper on this onet toraco's ind quad mod and/or service doubler mod have no direct effect on the collection of taxes in the game...actually they have inderectly have the oposite effect...they will lower the taxes collected, if you don't have the demand to sustain the building at full capasity.

taxes is collected as per the land value of the lots times the tax rate...doesn't matter how many ppl are in the building (baring the building becoming abandoned or delapilated which will actuially reduce the land value and taxes collect) does matter how many ppl live in a home ...you still pay the same taxes if you have 5 or 50 ppl in a building. now the mod will increase the use of MT and the income from them.quote>

Tolomar, you're still living in the medieval ages of Simcity. The taxation scheme you're mentioning is the one for SC3000, and maybe even before that.

In Simcity 4, the land-value-based taxation scheme was abandoned. The SC4 taxation scheme is now more realistic and relies on:

1) tax rate

2) building value (BV)

3) occupancy

Don't quote me as gospel, but I believe the equation is as follows:

income = building value x tax rate x occupancy

Land value still retains some influence on income because it partly determines when and where high-wealth building will appear. However the same can be said for desirability, since areas of high desirability tend to be the ones with high land value.

Note that once a building is built, it's BV does NOT change unless it dilapidates. A one-step decrease in wealth causes 25% drop in the BV, while a two-step decrease (obviously possible only with §§§ buildings) causes a 50% decrease in BV. Dilapidation will cause a decrease in income from the building by decreasing the BV, but this is offset to some extent by the greater amount of sims you can pack in the building. Two-step dilapidation of R§§§ in particular can allow packing of R§ sims like sardines.

Thus, in the situation that no new buildings are growing and they aren't dilapiating either, BV is a static part of the equation and your income is then determined by occupancy and your tax rate. You can increase occupancy by increasing desirability (100% desirability = 100% occupancy of a building),  which is done by placing parks and other recreational structures. This is one mechanism by which your recreational facilities offset their maintainance costs.

[Tolomar 5]

well guess  what Peroth...have no idea where the heck you guys are picking these formulas from. seems to me your looking at the stats and probibilities...and sort makeing a guess (have you ever taken stats or probibility course, i would guess not by yuo conclusion and formulas...some I notice things wrong with right off the bat (aka your fomula about res 100 % employment...you didn't even realize that 1/2 of all sims don't have jobs from the get go...you missed civic jobs as employment , list goes on, your sometimes overlooking other factor, and in simcity 4 everything is interconnected and smal mod here could have a profound effect on other aspectts of the game...most of the stats your quoting are pre-rushhour pre patch information, a lot of which was incorrect, close by not accurate...and the SCC charts were taken from the primus guide originally...not sure if they were ever properly updated...been an while since i spoke with REXi  the guide was totaly filled with typos too. and in my opoin was a waste of my money buying it.

I'm not wrong...cuz thats what Tropod told me how the games work...I'll take his word above yours anyday, sorry I trust the tinker...buidling retain their full value til they go below 50 (yea I forgot about that) occupancy and or delapiladed or abondoned. ps...I was the one that told you this in your theoies on abandoment of R$$$ sims thread

Now sorry for comming across as mean or nasty, but you must realize there are major major differences between a certain fact,  a probability, (AKA stastistcak chance of happening )nd a opion Which you you seem to mixing some of these up with one another.

you seem like a very friend person...willing to help others...and show a gerneral interest in the mathimatics of the game....personely i do disagree with some of your methods of building a city....but it's a fact that the Doozer have their own unquie way of playing the game, which I'm certain other would find displeasing or even an offence to the eyes...we do each have are own opions on what a "good" city anfd how to achieve this goal

ps...if you use the mod and all the buildings are historical...no more new sims to fill the jobs...you use the quad mod...some of the ind buildings become abandoned...that was the reason for the declie in taxation with the mod... as there were4 times as many jobsthan there were sims able to work

[Peorth 17]

Tolomar, do you have something against me?

From your first paragraph, it seems I've broken the Floodgates of Hell! It's nice to know that someone is keeping a list of Simcity Sins I've committed....

Right of the bat, I'll say that I started out as a dumb SC4 user. Along the way, I've been trying to read through forums and articles, collecting knowledge along the way, and trying to form a coherent picture. Unfortunately, that also means I didn't know a lot of things in the past like the Sin of Not Knowing Only 1/2 of Sims Were Employed. These things, I only learned later after more knowledgeable people have pointed them out, and to them I'm indebted. If you expect me to have come to Simtropolis brimming with knowledge and perfection, sorry to disappoint you.

Furthermore, despite what you seem think, I don't pull out things out of mid-air nor gaze into my crystal ball before I post. The things I say always have a basis, and in this regard I am guilty of hearsay. For example, the recent post I had regarding stage limits and probabilities were paraphrased from this seemingly erudite fellow named MadAngus over at simcity4.net He had the Prima guide and was expounding in great detail about the topics. Having been met with a deafening silence regarding this topic, I added this knowledge to mine. Later after posting it here and attributing the data to MadAngus, apparently there were some errors in his assumptions and naturally, this was reflected in my own. Gladly and thankfully, my path was set straight by Keiran Halycon and his Mighty RH-Updated Prima Guide. Anybody should realize that trawling through forums for gold nuggets is fraught with danger, the foremost being that the information is incorrect. But that's the way things go, and it will not change, not until pigs fly and all SC4 players are by some miracle filled with Immeasurable SC4 Knowledge.

The way things go, I have been merely taking information that is existing out there in the net, in thy451's simcity guide, in the SCC Knowledge Bin, in articles and posts distributed in the nooks and crannies of the net, because not very many people are willing to take the time and effort to do so. Sometimes I will make my own theories and deductions from these data but I often point them out so. Anybody  encountering those should take them with a grain of salt and not swallow it whole, hook, line and sinker.

So do I see any reedeming value in the stuff I post? For me yes. By bringing out those little details, I hope that others will contribute their knowledge. In that regard, I would like to especially  thank Bones1 for being my sounding board. By bringing out those details from the recesses of the forums and such, , I wish to prompt people (especially the Prima-guide-wielding ones) to CORRECT the errors in them. This has been illustrated by Keiran Halcyon's correction in the stage limits thread, etc. In this regard, I find it worthwhile because for my own selfish motives I learn new information and correct the error of my ways -- but on the other hand in refreshing the topic, hopefully people will find the information useful and correct previous misconceptions too.

Tolomar, since you apparently have a good view of the sins and inequities I've done, feel free to rebutt my posts point-for-point. I do not profess anything I write to be gospel and I always welcome being corrected for my own sake, as well as for the sake of others that might be holding those misconceptions. What I don't want is dredging up a morass of those sins and implying the bulk of what I've written is a bunch of bull, fancies of my imagination, or taken from the fall of Tarot cards.

-----

Back to the immediate topic at hand, the data from the taxation was derived from the article entitled Simcity 4: The Money Game, over at Computer Gaming World. Quoting:

..You set taxes in nine categories (by type and wealth level), and they’re no longer based on land value...

...Your city’s taxes are based on tax rate, building value, and occupancy...

....

RCI

buildings in the game have inherent building values. This value is changed only if the property downgrades to a lower wealth type (i.e., an R§§§ building becomes inhabited by R§§ ). A change of one wealth level drops the building value 25 percent. A two-level drop decreases building value 50 percent...

Furthermore, I looked over at SCC for more supporting evidence and found a thread where Toroca, a highly-respected moderator (and who originally made the Industry Quadrupler Mod by the way) and another BATter mentioned that the building value and NOT land value was used to compute for taxation income.

From the sources above, the only logical way to interpret them in my opinion was that:

income = building value x tax rate x occupancy

Not once did I have to pull out my trusty Simcity Crystal Ball, or my Tarot Cards of Simcity Prediction.

For anyone with the Prima guide, feel free to correct me at will.

[Keiran Halcyon 0]

My RH-updated Prima Guide is "mighty" now?

Anyway, the Prima Guide agrees with you (Peorth) 100% in this regard.  In fact, the three phrases you quoted are almost word-for-word from the guide.  Further, as far as I can tell, the only change that was made in RH was that IA now pays taxes like everyone else.

Oh, and Tolomar, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to work on the tone in which you present your arguments. Proper english couldn't hurt either. (If english is not your first language, then I apologize for my last remark.)

[Bones1 96]

Originally posted by: Keiran Halcyon

Oh, and Tolomar, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to work on the tone you present your arguments in. Proper english couldn't hurt either. (If english is not your first language, then I apologize for my last point.)quote>

 

Heh, I'm pretty sure all languages at least have the concept of a "sentence", unless his first language is ancient Egyptian or something.

[Tolomar 5]

ok, my typos are legendary around here, so making fun of my typing bothers me as much as a light breeze

Peroth...I'm not saying that most of the things you guys are saying are close to the truth...just your missing factors in your formulas...making the formulas wrong and gearing your formuas to the way you play the game

no matter how you mod the # jobs or occupancy of building...it doesn't change the building value...only effect occupancy has is a negative fatcor 9occupancy goes low, the building delapites or abandones)...so there no way unless you affect the building value or the landvalue that the building is sitting on  will not go up with occupancy. Toroca Ind quad or service doubler mod don't do either

I have the Primus guide...apparatent you have troubles reading it or are misinterpiting things in it

when doing experiments with probabilities guys...you have to run your experiments you must do them multiple times Redlotus Tropod (and a few other modder did this and used the Ireader to view the true values of the game and identify exmplar # and their meanings...they didn't use  the primus typos...to get accurate results, as with probabilities...there is a chance that you could run a simulaton 100 times and get varied results

Redlotus Tropod...these guys did  100's of experiment and you know what...they didn't come up with a cure all formula for the game either...cuz it's almost impossible to have a set formula for simcity4...all the factors are are too interwoven to have a set formula on how to do things, specialy when you add the factor of how different mayors play their game

and the primus gude is a piece of crap...cuz Tropd said so.

basicly your formulas are personl opoins not statements of fact

no way do I wish to discourage you in investingating and modding things or helping ppl in the threads...actually in the past most of the best discoveries in the game have come from finding out that certain thing were wrong (some were made by mistake aka the origial money park)

but your throwing these formulas at ppl with a wack load of stats....but the formulas are mising componets  and factors to them that your unaware of...which makes them inaccurate...specially when some of them directly conflict with the things found out about the game by the mod squad in the past.

[Bones1 96]

Well, Tolomar, you got my curiosity up, so I did a little test to see whether you are right or Peorth is right about the property tax formula.

I opened a city that had 2 Bennett Music Corp buildings. Desirability was such that they had 42/46 and 44/46 jobs. At 9% taxes they provided $9 income. I boosted the taxes to 20% to get a bit more granularity in the dollars, and they pumped out $21 income.

Then, I cut the monorail that ran near them, which caused traffic to drop and thus the desirability dropped. They now had 36/46 and 36/46 jobs. They still provided $21 income.

It was a quick test, and maybe not as complete as it could be (I only tested CO$$), but it appears that you're right Tolomar.

Of course, you aren't providing any testing of your own, or exemplar insights, or even any references of your own. (The Prima guide is obviously flawed, but it's at least a good start.) So, I'm more inclined to believe somelike like Peorth, who is at least providing some sort of reference. (Occasionally, that reference will be wrong, as it apparently is in this case. But it's a start.)

[Tolomar 5]

well bones glad you ran the test...might wanna do the same one a few times to be sure as any testing in this game, results can vary..(Y)

I personelly not a modder, i use the stats and experiments in the mod threads, play around with different things on the STEX ... (sometimes i do my own tests but their not very intence or indepth and weird unexplained things happen sometime and I'm at a loss of how why???),  Plus I always forget to take pictures...doozer are very good with a camera.. and I just like to play the game, not experiment...ppl like Tropod, Darkmatter, Ilive, EQ,Ralphninja, redlotus,7.. the list goes on and on...i leave that aspect to the game to others whom have a better shot at not making typos in the code lines...:s typos and programing don't mix well...:S I makz lots of typos...:S

more often than not I explain my questions to the modders...and they did the tests..i played with their mods... still do...

not to say I'm not wrong on a lot of things...been known to happen (but we won't speak of such rare things....o) )...my suggestion are often geared toards the way I play too....the Doozers like grids and tall buildings and not very good farmers... anything under 10 stories should be bulldozed

looking forward to  seeing more of your mods and experiments around here guys..quite refreshing to see ppl doing these things...actually used the x2 bones been playing around with some of the options in it.. I actually like the land value double  idea

just have to be careful drawing colcusions and set formulas with simcity4 though...not telling ppl if yuo do A...B will happen...cuz once you add 1 modd or custom building ..the original probilities go out the window and a lot of times in the past even certian "facts" of the game have been proven false

 

 

[Tolomar 5]

oops...duoble post...me bad...

[Peorth 17]

Bones1, thanks for the experiment! I love it when then things I point out nag you and you have to make these little experiments to prove or disprove them.  

Before letting the matter to rest, how long did you run the experiment? It might be possible that the income will not be updated if it's < 3 months. The 3-month thing is of course based on the lag effect of tax changes (which isn't the issue here), but it's quite possible that recomputes are not done on the fly and pegged to the lag effect.

[Bones1 96]

I let it run at least a year. The only changes to income from the CO$$ buildings came when I changed the tax rate. Desirability (and thus jobs filled) had no affect on income, unless I dropped it so much that the buildings abandoned (in which case they went to $0 income).

But like I said, I only tested CO$$. (I ran the test on "hard" level, BTW.) However, I haven't noticed desirability having an affect on taxes for the other building classes either. If that were the case, income would jump around quite a bit as crime hit certain areas, and traffic pollution, etc.

I think the lesson is that the Prima Guide shouldn't be relied on too much. It's probably got a lot of wrong info in it. But, it's probably got a lot of correct info too, so it's a good start, especially for insights to how the model works. For actual numbers, though, I'd go right to the exemplars rather than the book.

[Peorth 17]

So we can conclude that occupancy actually doesn't figure into the taxation income computation. However, the issue of building value versus land value still remains. At this point, I'm still inclined to believe it's BV. The lack of tax fluctuation secondary to desirability changes is more consistent with the BV model, considering that changes in desirability might change the LV also  It can probably be determined experimentally by causing changes in LV and seeing if the tax rates follow. Of course, the changes shouldn't be enough so that dilapidation sets in.

Regarding the Prima guide, it certainly has errors. However, given the lack of an alternate detailed guide as a fallback,  people are still forced to make assumptions from it, but always with the the mindset that it is not 100% error-free. Only when experiments have been made to verify the truth (or falsehood) of what's written in there do I think we can believe something is truly correct.

Regarding the exemplar data, that's certainly a good way to get some stats and cross-check it with the guide. However, assumptions from exemplars aren't necessarily straightforward. Like the case with the building probabilities, it turned out the discrepancies you saw were the RH adjustments for I-D, R§, and C§ to make them appear earlier (and thus the probabilities weren't really different across all wealth levels but limited to only these). In this case, the values you extracted from the exemplars tallied perfectly with the figures in the Prima guide.

[Tolomar 5]

guys...if you don't already have both...grab the latest version of the Ireader/tweaker and the SC4Tool program...at least you have actual stats to go on...

https://www.simtropolis.com/forum/categories.cfm?catid=40&entercat=y

https://www.simtropolis.com/forum/categories.cfm?catid=124&entercat=y