SoftcoreGamer

A made-up point won’t suddenly become real by repeating it. A discussion won’t suddenly lose relevance just because your opinion is proven wrong. Please be reasonable and read the very real PDF I posted above, to find Maxis's Lucy Bradshaw presenting SimCity players as hardcore, and the game itself as hardcore. I don't know why you don't read the hard evidence or keep contradicting Maxis's own words. SimCity is in the process of being stripped off hardcore features and transformed into a friendly softie city SIM. If Maxis’s own words in 2002 isn’t evident enough, please read this a 2012 Maxis interview on PCworld, which clearly describing SimCity core player as hardcore, Maxis's new “mainstream” and "everyday" audience as obviously a DIFFERENT type of players who are not hardcore like core players. How have you designed this game for the core player, but opened it up for the more mainstream player? JH: The data layer really helps make that data more accessible so for those everyday players, they’ll be able to look at that information and understand what is happening. But for the hardcore player, they’re going to really be able to learn how GlassBox is working and learn how to work with that best. So FACTS - SimCity is a HARDCORE City Sim, SimCity core fans are HARDCORE players. New changes, new audience, NO. I rest my case with this here.... ----- Trioxis - looks like you have confused SC4 sales and SimCity LIFETIME sales. Lifetime 30 million minus PDF-SCs 9+ million = SC4 20 million. The now-fixed Google link was to search for “SimCity sold 30 million” and will produce many valid results so pick any one source you trust, but definitely avoid the Wikis you quoted. Wikis are good for general overviews, but for specific stats and facts industry publication with official Maxis endorsement should be referred to than often dubious Wiki stats, common sense stuff really. The PCworld Maxis interview article linked above said clearly - “The SimCity franchise has sold over 30 million copies worldwide.” So there you go. It really doesn’t matter if the 30 million Lifetime Sales included console and whatnot – the new reboot is 100% PC with no plan for others has got to be based on Maxis's demographics logic. Even with SimTown SimsVille even non-Maxis SimCity Societies included in the total 30 million sales, still won’t shake that SC4 sold 20 million figure. I rest my case with this one too. ------ Understandably, the 20 million SC4 sales figure could be quite surprising...but to me it is only positive. Definitely make SimCity Core Fans a very attractive group with huge bargaining power... But which groups made up these 20 millions SC4 buyers, other than those 75% males 25% female hardcore players we are familiar with? SC13's promos give some clues... Looking at the “Play With Friends!” SimCity World video featured on the above PCworld interview, I wouldn’t be surprised Japan alone contributed above 5 million copies to SC4 sales... I read on Simtropolis some time back (when some members discovered Japanese mod site) that SC4 remained No.1 selling game in Japan for years? Someone who knows please verify… This could explain why Maxis is making SimCity soft and friendly for the majority Female and Casual players currently playing Facebook city games, and also casting a Mizuki Nakamura as the star among all others in the trailer... Will the Japanese SimCity core fans or the still very active and growing Chinese CXL core fans budge with the new kind of always-on Social Casual SimCity? I strongly doubt it, from what I observed the Japanese city-building fans are mod download freaks just like us, and will expect large maps (LA seriously sprawls but Tokyo's sprawl is even more mind-boggling) Chinese city-builder gamers particular love building gigantic cities.

If anything my tendency is to conservatively under-estimate SimCity sales numbers. I kept core fans total to the available 5 million much-reported SC3000 number, until I found solid stats stated below... I actually wanted to provide the horse but forgot - my habit is evidently posting links and backups unlike some here who just present super-subjective personal opinions as facts in armchair opponent manners. SC3K is reported to be 5mil so probably continued to sell after SC4 launch, which could be a later sum like 4.8K rounded. The $1.2 Billion turnover is just for starters, sure, before tax too of course, but nevertheless impressive and yummy enough to inspire the making of CXLs and CityVille. I estimate SC13 dev cost at around 40 mil (Maxis probably laugh because it is 60mil onwards nowadays), not including marketing and advertising yet. I was being generous with the 2 mil first year sales btw... I’m actually surprised by my earlier 20 million guestimate that turned out to match at first…then again I did factor in worldwide sales. Must be those Japanese SC4 sales are finally accounted for just recently? Anyway here’s plenty sources for SimCity Lifetime Sales at 30 mil. Here’s (PDF) SC original, SC2000, SC3000 sales, official source , and a very interesting article indeed. The math is easy. So yes, 20 million. --------- Moving on... there’s actually a lot of interesting stuff in the above Maxis SimCity Presentation which covered pre-SC4 SimCity - it basically spelled out Which Genre SimCity belongs to and Which Demographics SimCity targets ---- all in Maxis’s own words. Some relevant points and snippets: Maxis defines the typical SimCity audience as “hard core”. Specifically they said: Primary Target: SimCity Fans, hard core gamers. “Hard core appeal” was also mentioned twice. So to those who insist "online means hardcore offline means casual", once and for all, officially, SimCity Core Fans Are Hardcore Gamers of the SIM genre. In that presentation, Maxis also attributed SimCity’s financial and popularity success to “Open model garnered hard core appeal”. Yet now they are making a SimCity with “Predetermined model garnered casual appeal”... or less formally “Uptight model garnered zzzz appeal”... Maxis seems to have turned their back on their own “SimCity Description”: – The first of a new type of entertainment software now known as “God” games. – A system simulation that provides the player with a set of rules and tools to create and control an urban environment – A software toy, a sandbox Now it is a Mortal game subjected to an invisible punitive game god’s disaster attacks. Free-form Creative Control now reduced to about 2% of its former prowess, and Sandbox, is a potential not even distantly promised as an expansion. Maxis turning their back on SimCity values is even truer on the macro genre level… Maxis said • SIM brand values – Open Ended/Blank Canvas – Creative/Thinking – Challenging/Building • Open Model – customization Amazing isn't it. These are the Maxis Defined SimCity Core Values That Will No Longer Exist in the upcoming SimCity. No more SIM brand values, only Closed Ended GamePlay and Static Preset Pre-formed Stuck-position Canvas Broken into a few 2x2 Sub-Canvases. ANTI-customization ANTI-creative freedom as the new default... As elaborated in posts above, SIM genre fans would freak or flee, but SimCity Social audience will not mind nor are they aware of such Core Simcity Values. Who else is Maxis TAILORING the new genre SimCity for anyway? WoW crowd? CoD? Angry Birds? Clear Verdict: Maxis is pushing SimCity into a DIFFERENT GENRE making a radically different game. Calling it SimCity is but to capitalize on the success of the SIM brand, hoping SimCity core fans will eventually softened and casualized into Rent-a-Sub-Canvas. Reality is… Brand name recognition can only go so far. SimCity Social is a prime example on how flat (and how fast) that short-term strategy could fall. Without SIM brand values, it logically means, no SIM brand core audience. With no SimCity core values? Right. One highly specific genre audience cannot be so frivolously converted to an equally specific opposite type genre audience. As a hybrid SC TS core fans it is pretty obvious to me this is a SimTown Puzzle Online, and that Maxis is trying to "unite" both core groups - SC core fans are asked to scale down, TS audience are expected to scale up. Trying, is the operative word. SIM brand audience totals…let’s see, 20 million SC, (appx)15 million TS3, that’s 35 million SIM core fans to throw away, or to get really rich from... Maxis probably need more than just a Plan B for SimCity core fans. If they want The Sims fans too they need a Plan C. With all Maxis-defined SIM game core values intact, of course.

Well put... Neither EA, Maxis, nor anyone else can successfully push a product the fanbase rejects, indeed. Also, one of the most nonsensical myth being carelessly thrown about is “SimCity core fans are a minority”. A minority in what? SimCity is the most successful title in its genre City Simulation and Management. No sane minds would call a game that sold more than 30 MILLION lifetime copies a “minority” – not even in the ENTIRE Simulation genre. On the other hand, SC13 becoming a minority in Zynga's Social Casual Games territory, sure. Simcity Social fans ARE already a minority among their peers! Signs of things to come? Discounting the worth of SimCity core fans with baseless projections presented as facts maybe a new fashion trend. I prefer to stick to facts and PURE NUMBERS. That is why I’ve looked hard and finally uncovered……………….SC4’s SURPRISINGLY HUGE sales number! Right from the horse’s mouth too! So here it is…. 30+ million = Total SimCity Sold by 2012 1.2 million = SimCity Original/ Classic 3.4 million = SimCity 2000 4.6 million = SimCity 3000 20+ million = SimCity 4 20 MILLION! OMG, my guestimate of SimCity core fans total in my first few posts on this forum was actually correct! Congratulations and Kudos to every modders and BATters and Simtropolis owner and administrators and Japan Mod sites and worldwide SC4 paying customers. Now you know how much you have helped Maxis generate sales. Now I know How Much Core Fans Are Worth. From previous 4,600,000 copies, a sure and steady 10 year boost to 20,000,000 copies. Multiply by $$? Wow….amazing… Now I know WHY Maxis kept saying THEY WANT CORE FANS! Some said Maxis is being arrogant or over-confident. Probably. Some claimed Maxis “felt” guilt for failing to meet core fans expectations, I reckon if there’s any emotion involved it’s more likely sheepishness than remorse. But I’m a seasoned investor and am less sentimental about these things - I don’t expect any apology if Maxis need to chart new path; businesses have every right to chase after PERCEIVED larger customer base. I’m just saying… Maxis is not stupid and will not throw away 21 million customers for untested market. Maxis knew their loyal fan base wanted a SC5, basically a better SC4 in 3D with improved simulation. Maxis did not lie to core fans that this reboot will be a different genre for a different kind of target audience. They obfuscated, misled here and there, drop the “Casualizing bombs” one at a time, yes. But lie about a Social Casual SimCity2013, they didn’t. Maxis didn’t mean to alienate/abandon core fans at all - even with all the new changes. Maxis could just be taking a Middle of the Road approach hoping to capture both sides of the Great Demographics Divide, but very possibly winning NEITHER Maxis should know the market’s reaction by now, they are still listening and do not stifle ground-level feedback including the negative ones even on their own forums. Maxis still have time to adjust and ensure they capture as many from the 20 million core customer base as possible For me, it is good to know SC4 has sold at minimum 20 million copies. It makes me feel damn proud as one of the SimCity Core Fans. More importantly, compared to SimCity Social’s still-shrinking1.3 million regular players who didn’t even pay….. SimCity Core Fans are worth at least 20m x $60 = $1.2 BILLION. $1.2 BILLION, before DLCs and expansion packs, before new frontier China. I mean…. Wow… Clear Verdict: SimCity Core fans are NOT a “minority”, but a Very Sexy $Billion Target Audience to Any Game Companies with Basic Business Intelligence. EA/Maxis have been spectacularly wrong before, TSO captured 1% projection, SimCity3000 near disaster for example. The game as is, I agree with Screwball that they will sell very slow and below projected number; I estimate their dev cost around 30 to 40 mil, and sales around 2 mil units first year. I still believe there are intelligent ones in Maxis who will save this Solid Sales Record Game Title from corporate myopia, for as I mentioned earlier Maxis obviously understand Core Fans: “Now, for our core fans of Simcity, we’ve got something for you too…” “We’re still targeting our core audience…” “We still have that sandbox play…” “…where you are the god of your own Simcity, the mayor of your own SimCity…” “You control, you decide…build your cities anyway you like…” It gives me confidence to know that Maxis know exactly what Core Fans wanted - a typical SimCity with Solo play, Sandbox Play, God Mode, Mayor Mode, God-like Control and Open-Ended Game Goals. Time to make these promises real for the 20 million core fans?

-double post accident-

See my post above about why the changes in SC13 is making it more like SimCity Social... There is no "hermit" or solo mode if aspects of gameplay remains tied to other people. I don't know about energy bar gifts or game currency. These have nothing to do with who this game is being made for, anyhow... Don't know who is Jack or Louise, probably old enough for SC13? This reminds me of that Maxis promo video of Jamie Lee Curtis as the star! OMG why didn't I see that! Jamie is like a very active and spunky...what 55 year old woman? Oh dear, signs are everywhere...proving my point again Maxis is indeed running after older female demographics! You need to slow down your reading, "shoot all the other guys" is exactly what SC13 or all the other SimCities are not, to make the point that Maxis is targeting SPECFICIALLY "soft and friendly" social gamers = older females... Ah nevermind... This is not the first time you take things out of context... Anyways I have said enough about Older Female Are Majority of Social Gamers in post #1, 5, 7 and #42 of this thread complete with industry research and game biz news articles to illustrate why 50+ females are the rage for game companies. But if you think your boyfriend's opinion is sufficient as proof, well as you wish... Exactly. Why would mom bother indeed? Maxis needs a Plan B.

“Believe” that as you wish...I much prefer to see the glaring evidence right in front of me: Maxis is taking SimCity from young CXL hardcore male city-builders to social casual 50+ older females who like helping their friends grow cities. Which is perfectly why... It is indeed impossible to not notice how much cuter and prettier and SMALLER and SIMPLER and more FEMININE the whole thing is. It is even more absurd to argue against how dumbed down and stripped down and different the new game is from its predecessors indeed. Point is though, the changes are all HIGHLY SPECIFIC, so for who EXACTLY the game is being made for? Core fans, I included, are used to thinking "stripped down" SimCity... But from another perspective, SC13 is an "upgraded" SimCity Social! Why is density zoning taken out or “absent”? Correct. SimCity Social has no density zoning. No upset expected. How about 2x2 tile towns now labelled city? SimCity Social city looks about that size. No loss there. No whining expected. What about the terribly difficult to do thing like placing your own city connection? Correct. SimCity Social players have only known wpreset connections. They are oblivious to traditional SimCity god-like power. Sounds just like the perfect kind of game customers.........IF they would bother paying $60 after being spoiled for years free to play all their FB city games. But why? Why make SimCity specifically so much SIMPLER, so much more FEMININE? As shown clearly in post #5, Social Gaming demographic officially consists of two primary groups – Hardcore (FPS MMO), and Casual (FB games primarily). Making SimCity exclusively social as in “PLAY WITH FRIENDS” instead of “GO SHOOT ALL THE OTHER GUYS” means SC13 is very very very specifically targeting the friendly soft gamers. Who are... Correct. Facebook’s FarmVille CityVille SimCity Social gamers, with lots of FRIENDS. This group totals triple millions. If I was a game business I would run after them indeed. No controversy at all here. As elaborated super clearly in #7 Women in 60+ age group dominate Social Casual genre. So Maxis is simplifying and feminizing the new SimCity for? Correct. Older Females. Which means? NOT young teens as claimed. More specifically, NO MORE youngsters as primary target, like it had been all these SimCity years. SimCity has moved on indeed to the opposite direction. 50yo+ females rule the gaming world now. Shocking isn't it? I think there’s a bit of a denial that the new SimCity is targeting social (FB) gamers, and older women. Like..."oh no SimCity has become a MOM game now, but I’m so not like mom? So it can't be true!" To that I say….keep an open mind! Just because older females love SC13 doesn’t make it a bad game, or just because you are not older or female and YET Facebook-looking leaderboard and cutesy graphics appeal to you….so what, go for it! It is totally ok, 60 year old retired moms can be really fun and chatty too... Point is, the only time the very spoiled social gaming audience will come play SC13 is when SC13 go...FREE TO PLAY.... The only people who will potentially pay $60 upfront for any city games, are the SimCity core fans who had been ignored for 10 years. Diablo3 core fans succumbed to paying upfront to go online after 10 years of starvation, regretted it a few days after launch and riot and wailed, but Blizzard laughed all the way to the bank all the same. Diablo3 is a profitable venture for game biz. So no surprise Maxis could be hoping SimCity core fans are as desperate or as under-informed as Diablo core fans. That’s all… I’m pragmatic so I’m not even going to call that kind of move evil, it’s just business as usual… Thing is I am the sort who buy wanted tablets phones and softwares a few months post launch, and let others sort out the bugs and review it for me. But SC13 is not on my stuff to buy list, I’m just going to watch very far from the sideline. IMO regardless of whatever audience they are targeting, alienating core fans is a huge, huge mistake. Core fans, 5 million strong at minimum, some claim are minority. This against SimCity Social daily active user that has dropped to 1.3 million 4 months after launch… Verdict is not out yet anyhow. So let’s see….

Giant assumption there. Is that why hardcore Diablo3 fans spat venom non-stop on Metacritic about Everything That Is Wrong With Forcing Diablo3 Online - right after Diablo3 launch? Is that why Ubisoft finally surrendered to customer boycott and ditched their always-on policy – after conducting serious lengthy research on its viability? Is that why Ubisoft's customers complain less now, and buy more games? Is that why trendy best-selling tablet games like Angrybird Tetris-spin-offs and Solitaire are all…well, SOLITAIRE and OFFLINE? Is that why Maxis repeatedly use the words “core fans” and “private” and “solo mode” and “play alone” in their PR talks? Anything "online centric focus" there? Don't believe me, look it up. Feel free to espouse subjective opinions, but facts would be much nicer... This statement alone contains three more assumptions... Chief of which, you are insisting “online” as a prerequisite for “hardcore” gamers. Very wrong... You need to read what you posted to avoid contradicting yourself... And I agree with that game wiki in this. The Diversity of Hardcore Gamers, is exactly why professional statisticians used Solo Hardcore and Social Hardcore as gamer categories, and why I prefer discussing demographics using industry standard terms. And I certainly wouldn’t tell those Simtropolis super-core-fans with1000+ posts that they are not hardcore but mere casual SimCity dabblers, or that their views don't matter, or claim that Maxis is not listening to them. Maxis is 100% here reading actively and making that known to us for very good reasons... Social Gaming Demise is now standard market news headline. The real game industry trend could well be Social/Online-only is a mere FAD, and a very short-lived one at that.. Just becaue Maxis decided to make a SOCIAL SimCity and advertising can’t-be-more-obvious slogans like "PLAY WITH FRIENDS!", just because they want Zynga's FB audience, doesn’t mean SC2013 will make money or even work, or even survive. They are just another game business which need every customer they can get. But nevermind core fans or new imaginary fans - having Solo Offline Options, is nothing but a smart move for EA/Maxis. There is no reason to be gungho or monomaniacal in this business climate. I am cynical about corporate culture and myopia, but I remain hopeful about the intelligence of individuals within these organizations.

Yes there are bridges, and the players will get to place them. Thanks for answering! Hopefully the highlighted will receive some answers too...

Exactly, very well said. If there's one thing all Hardcore Mid-core even Softcore SimCity players want in common, it is The Need For Creative Control on How Cities Are Built. Giving the players virtually no say (in map size map shape in terraform in city shape city sizes city position on map etc) is precisely what SimCity Social is about. Another evident the new SimCity is designed from the ground up for the PRO-SOCIAL, NON-HARDCORE, NON-CREATIVE type of gamers. SimCity is not only moving from hardcore/mid-core to casual, from solo to social, but also from a classic Creative City Simulation Management to trendy Preset Town Social Strategy. So there's no reason why typical traditional SimCity Creative God Mayors will bother with the new SimCity of a different genre, including those who believe they could live with Origin. It remains a mystery why they include "core fans" in their tightly scripted speeches and promo videos. Perhaps they want core fans to give them blessings for turning SimCity into Something Else and selling it to Someone Else. ------- There's a misconception that just because SC13 is online, it is therefore a "MMO". There is nothing "massive" about multi-playing 2x2 MINIATURE towns on a Cities XL size city map - even with oneself. In fact it is pathetic and tiny by today's MMO standards. But I can see Facebook's SimCity Social crowd used to such unrealistic scales may go "OMG if you go up to the regional view you can now see other people's cities it's so cool!" Is that very "hardcore" kind of city-builder "MMO" in anyway, seriously? Nah.... Another misconception is about “hardcore” gamers, that they must be “hard”, “battle-loving”, "attention and glory seeking", “competitive”, “collaborative”, “destructive” and “always on”, “consoles-based”……ignoring the fact that there are too many hardcore PC-based, solo, always-off, non-destructive, non-domineering, peaceful, private, creative, open-ended YET equally competitive (against AI) equally cooperative (with AI) type of hardcore gamers. EVE online is hardcore. SimCity Social crowd is simply not hardcore. They are super casual super soft super fleeting to the point they won't even pay $30 upfront to try out a game and would play a game only once a week, if they would stay on after a month. The Sims gamers for example, is a very Hardcore involved, very CREATIVE, very SPECIFIC sort of simulation game audience, who didn’t bother with the fluffy light-weight The Sims Online or god forbid The Sims Social on FB. Just like SimCity, players can't master The Sims overnight, there's a relatively high learning curve to building the house and putting together a Sim and then managing the Sim family members like the way SimCity players managing jobs and traffic. The Sims and SimCity belongs to the CREATIVE SANDBOX game subcategory. SimCity As We Know It definitely attracted highly CREATIVE highly SPECIFIC kind of gamers. Creative in map design, terrain shaping, city visions, mods, custom buildings, vegetations, transport add-ons, and on, and on.... Removing Traditional Creative God Mode Mayor Mode Features, newly-imposed fixed connections maps terrains town sizes positions WILL ALIENATE THE CREATIVE GAMERS. Instead of more solo features + new social features, Maxis went with no more features + limited new social features, and ended up with an odd confusing hybrid with no hardcore city simulation and no hardcore Facebook socializing. Core fans will shun the crazy dumb-downs cut-downs and extreme loss of creative control; The Sims fans look at always-on and ignore; FPS MMO crowd shrug at light-weight competition; Facebookers look at agents and yawn and go play CityVille Tropical... If Maxis is really ignoring the 5 million strong SC core fans and focus 100% energy of new casual audience, might as well get rid of those very involved and intimidating non-SC Social elements like info layers, modules and multi-lane avenues and instead have pre-established public buildings. Perhaps add in wars and military aspect to please the Social Hardcores. But if Maxis think they are doing a Mid-Core treatment on SimCity with hopes to get all the cores + casuals, they need to know they are failing big. There is a HUGE difference between Middle-Core and Mediocre-Core, and right now, it is the latter... For the new SimCity to be truly accepted by both ends of the demographics spectrum, the new Social Casual elements should be grown upon the solid foundation of Core SimCity, with all Traditional City-Creation Options Intact.

Maxis mentioned there are light and heavy rails, and then when probed, they confirmed users don't get to decide where to build them, except inside the 2x2 tile area, and only IF Maxis have placed a rail track through that tile, as shown by pic below. So I'm not too sure that just because they say "yes there are bridges", it means users get to place them. I look at Ocram's cxl curve bridge picture above, and noted how long a typical suspension bridge is. Based on the small size of the tiles as shown below, and the typical size of bridges, it begs the questions: Will users get to place bridges anywhere they like in the region? Or will users get to build bridges only within a 2x2 tile that happens to be given a river by Maxis? So far only Maxis get to play at region level so better ask... Someone in the know please advice.

Xenocity said: So are you guys hardcore, old school, or casual/social gamers? As proposed in post #17, I understand what you mean by old school, but for clarity of discussion let's stick to industry definition starting with 4 entry-levels... Solo Hardcore, Solo Casual, Social Hardcore, Social Casual. Sub categories could be game genres like sandbox, strategy, god etc.. SimCity traditionally is a single-player, highly involved City Construction & Management Simulation genre with open-ended play, is therefore a Solo Hardcore - Sandbox game. "Core" fans, or old school/traditional SimCity fans, are by default Solo Hardcore. The upcoming SimCity is online-multi-play-with-friends and SimCity Social-level-casualness, aspects which make the new game "Social and Casual" by industry definition. Social and Casual may feel similar, but are defining two different types of gamers in game industry terms. Tetris is a casual game, but not social etc.. Hope that's clearer.. Penguin1634: It perplexes me to no end that EA thinks they can attract that "lucrative" demographic that plays Farmville and Cityville to the real nitty-gritty of SimCity. They can't, and they never will. I was perplexed too. My antenna was already in oh-no mode when I first heard “you can play with friends” the fav industry report buzzword. It was the Q&A video that it became clear they are really saying to core fans “we know what you want your solo hardcore sandbox but we are making a different game for an audience radically different from you. Just accept it.” Dirktator’s report basically nailed it for me... Now I’m no longer so perplexed…I can see what they’re trying too hard to achieve… to steal the Social Casual gamers from Zynga…with a SimCity Social in 3D, independent and away from Zynga’s territory Facebook.... EA's campaign to steal Zynga customers has already started, with a slogan...“More City, Less Ville”. The IRONY… SCSocial have recently been proven to have “low stickiness”; users don’t stick around, and existing users can’t attract new users… That is the nature of social casual game, swallow…and the gamers they design the upcoming SC for…fleeting, the down-side of unsentimental un-passionate un-core game audience... Which, is the exact opposite of SimCity core fans. Simtropolis’s vibrancy and staying power is a testimony of SimCity core fan’s stamina, as well as past SimCity super-stickines, made on the simple soild ingredients of a good-enough city simulation base game + modding support. But SimCity belongs to Maxis, they could do whatever they want with it, core fans just don’t have to accept it. Maxis is not a charity, and neither are game customers. I would invest many times more time and money than the typical social casual gamers but I’m not interested to pay to beta-test some glorified experiments… hdorriker said: all these experiments they keep doing are just pushing some of us away for good. They couldn't possibly be unaware of this. They are aware, they knew we’ll freak out, hence the hide and seek games. Maxis have been around for some time, they have experienced the near-debacle of 3D SimCity3000, they know very well the risk of giving SimCity a Michael Jackson level makeover… They do act gungho about their choices, “we did it from the ground up” etc, but it is obvious they are not that sure of wha they're doing. Looking back now they have been wishy-washy hiding seeking with core fans about the new changes, dropping bits at a time, hoping core fans will accept their idea of fun and their new definition of realism and solo play. As they focus the bulk of the design and marketing effort on the social casuals - evident with the tone and depth of the strategy/ disaster videos, they continue to drop “core fans” in speeches, invite Simtropolis over etc… They want core fans, they gut core features, they chase after core fans, then tell core fans take it or leave it…they demand core fans accept the changes then they said core fans have high expectations… IMO the game design has been tilted excessively to the Social Casual Gamer, and is a poor business move. They have been BLINDSIDED by their obsession the super-size Zynga demographics. Truth is they didn’t pay attention and are too late to social gaming which is now an over-saturated field and going downhill fast... Corporations make mistakes all the time…and EA is famous as the game destroyer...The fear that EA won’t invest in a proper SimCity again after their self-induced failure is very real… So those who love the game must continue to give EA/Maxis the right feedback, to produce a version of SimCity that will definitely sell and last. So here’s one feedback from the ground – Solo Hardcore Sandbox gamers cannot be converted into Social Casual Puzzle dabblers. There is a high pent-up under-catered-to demand in the traditional Solo Hardcore City Construction Simulation genre. 5 million x 5 expansion packs isn't a small number. If Maxis won’t fill that demand, someone else will. Monte Cristo had, Colossal Order is, another Zynga may… There are intelligent people working in Maxis too so I hope wisdom will float to the top…

Great article on what is a social game…some are spot-on some so vague even soccer game qualifies. I agree "social game" is a misused term eventhough I'm sticking to its industry use. But let’s hear it from EA’s SimCity Social maker Playfish: a game where the main reason why you play involves direct interaction with friends (competition, cooperation, expression, gifting and so on) Or from a game boss’s blatantly cynical perspective… any game which uses the social graph to increase and improve the gaming experience, while utilising game theory and psychology to generate revenue from the active user base from a combination of virtual goods, advertising and offers. Or from IMO the most objective definition… games that use the platforms of the social web to propagate. Or why the word “social” in “social game” is an oxymoron… these games tend to feel very asocial, turning people into resources rather than friends and agents you have to negotiate and communicate with. Which reminds me exactly of….Facebook itself. Which in turn reminds me of a SC13 nickname SimFacebook. Not a Facebook game, but very likely a Game-Facebook. The “social game” definition most descriptive of SimCity 2013… ‘a game which relies on social interaction between players in order to be played’. This dependency on others is precisely why the independent solo hardcore city builders hate this game. The world really don't need another Facebook city game or a SimFacebookCity. Maxis has a lot of balancing to do...

Interesting theory. Dropping Origin saves will miraculously return more than just large map size but almost every single feature loss people are moaning about. As to the "reversal", not necessary as those who like multiplayer could continue to play on the small maps. Those who like offline sandbox get to build sprawling cities and use their online account as a 3D showcase. I have always wanted to visit and walk around other player's cities in 3D and Planet Offer achieved that before it died thanks to certified MP idiocy. I've always envisioned SimCity going online as a world tourism cities depository which will overcome the limitation of 2D city journals. As to loading the larger offline sandbox maps online for others to visit, this is could be solved by merging and compressing the whole map + buildings into one single large 3D object without playability. Just a thought..

Ocram I reckon you're no doubt a core fan based on your total post alone lol. Anywayz.. Long post ahead, apology in advance. Trioxis – perhaps you haven’t looked at SC13 promos but Maxis made no secret that SimCity2013 is targeting a drastically different audience. Screwball has explained the big social elephant in the room so here’s just a simple signature SC13 image from Gamescom video: As is, SC2013 is 100% a social game. Remember, even the so-called Solo mode is tied to global prices impacted by others and at the mercy of server existence, so strictly and technically speaking there is no solo mode, only social. To keep this demographics discussion more coherent, the standard definition of basic gamer types… Social or Solo Casual, Mid-core, Hardcore Social = multiplayer with other real persons Solo = single player, independent or with NPC Casual = spend little time, longer intervals, shallow involvement, easy goals Hardcore = spend hours, almost daily, deep involvement, challenging goals There are other variations within these but I’ll just start with these... So, placing the higher hierarchy first, Social Casual is preferred over Casual Social and so on to avoid confusion and misunderstanding. Also, "core fans" universally means traditional/ dedicated/ incumbent/ diehard loyal fans. You can have a casual game with core fans too and so on. With that cleared.. Traditionally SimCity core fans are Solo Hardcore with some Solo Mid-core. Now Maxis is remaking SimCity into a 100% Social game and Casualizing it so much that they alienate the Solo Hardcore fans. The cynics among us think such abrupt dramatic demographic switch must mean "Maxis don't need us"...but I'm proposing the opposite is true. I have elaborated elsewhere but let me recap it here for discussion sake... Logically, their new audience candidate would be the very close-by SimCity “big sister”, The Sims fans, which bought 100 million+ copies to date. But The Sims gamers are unambiguously Solo Hardcore. The Sims fans vehemently refused to go online. So no…not them. Next obvious candidate would be SimCity Social fans. An established Social Casual audience accustomed to city building simulation in Maxis SimCity lingo, who spend bite-size time playing occasionally, prefer shallow and easy play, cooperate with friends, compete with other real human on size status..etc…very Social Casual indeed. They are most likely the ones being catered to, starting with the upper right corner of the above pic… The more new features added and traditional features removed, the more SimCity 2013 looks like a 3D SimCity Social… The “Socialization” of SimCity – loud and clear “play with friends” “collaborate” “leaderboard” “connect with” “global” “world”… The Casualization of SimCity – replicating the looks and feel of SimCity Social…preset city connections, removed zoning densities, shiny cartoony looks, cute big button interface, petite 2x2 cities, no mods, no custom buildings, no god-like terraform, never experienced heaven so don’t know what to miss… This Social Casual group is however no big spenders, and very fickled, as confirmed by the latest industry reports posted earlier. It's irrational to believe SimCity Social or the other Villes crowd would spend above their tiny $51 yearly game budget to learn another same old city game in 3D, when new “tropical” editions of their familiar 2D city games are free to play too... All in all, it is just not smart to change traditional SimCity features so much that it alienated Solo Hardcore core fans. Maxis ain’t stupid; the glaring fact is Maxis want core fans. And they have told core fans just that. “Core fans” are among the most used buzzwords in their PR speeches… “Now, for our core fans of Simcity, we’ve got something for you too…” “We’re still targeting our core audience…” “We still have that sandbox play…” “…where you are the god of your own Simcity, the mayor of your own SimCity…” “You control, you decide…build your cities anyway you like…” Unfortunately, the last three remain lies...thus far the only party who controls who decides city shape city connections city positions city boundaries city correctness with disasters is…Maxis, and the party who will own user’s cities is…EA. They want core fans, they try to catch core fans with promises, they need to live up to their promises. But don’t take my words for it, check it out on Youtube… Maxis said they want core fans. Duh..game industry pros readily admit Casualized Games Need Hardcore Fans Endorsement. So the “shut up y’all Maxis don’t care don’t need core fans here’s why” opinion is pure nonsense and counter-productive. SC3000’s 5 million is not a small number, and that’s before Japan and China got excited about SC4 and CXL. Solo Hardcore city-simulation fans number at least 10 million at a very conservative estimate. SimCity Social, however, had dwindled to 1.5 million active users barely 4 months after launch... Think about that... Maxis knew from the start they needed SimCity core fans, yet they went on to make a Social Casual game from the ground up. Arrogance, or ignorance? Who knows... Perhaps in their excitement over Maxisland revival they had underestimated how Solo-Hardcore the SimCity core fans really are. Perhaps in their over-zealousness to wrestle Sims franchise audience away from Zynga, they piled on the social casual factors at the expense of the important classic features that means a lot to core fans… Still, Maxis ought to know by now they overdid the demographic swing. Time to balance the upcoming SimCity in the passionate Solo Hardcore direction?

As clearly stated in the first sentence, the chart is cited to prove the newly wanted casual gamers are far older than SC core fans and not younger as you claimed, and nothing more. Do read again... It is self-evident that SimCity is being “casualized” and “socialized” for casual social majority the 40-50+ females. To their credit Maxis have been open and upfront about their intention to court more casual and social gamers as the reason for all the new changes. You too have argued convincingly for SC13 casualization in your first post in this thread anyway, so why contradict Maxis or yourself…? “Wide-reaching aspect” is nice - and precisely the missing element in SC2013 as is. I actually agree Maxis should cast their net wide beyond niche young-ish 75% male city-builder geeks. I'm fine with them courting 50yo affluent gamers. But with the game now so drastically trimmed inside-out, we end up with only a whole of universally-despised narrow uptight constrains, now protested about here and elsewhere...not good omen for sales. Even if the new SimCity is casual enough for the casual socials (I don't think so), they may not buy. Social gamer's yearly budget is shrinking from $78 to $51 and still shrinking. Can’t always count on this micro budget casual social group, and EA is learning fast about them from most recent SimCity Social's daily active users (DAU) deep diving to 1.3 mil, losing 300,000 freemium players in just one month! I'm not surprised at all with fleeting gamers fleeting games, but I question the lifespan of online-only SC2013. If SCSocial fans are fast deserting a Free Casual Social city game at such an early stage, what hope for this demographic sustaining a cash-upfront more-involved more-machine-demanding 3D version of SCSocial? Industry reports confirm the trend of social gaming demise. So don't let the naysayers bring you down...soon traditional solo gamers of all gender and age group will be back in great demand again. This is why I remain hopeful that SimCity 2013 may still end up a truly all-encompassing game catering to both core and casual gamers, simply because EA/Maxis needed it to.

Actually, based on a few items on the image, the details of highways and the great works airport specifically, it is quite certainly an in-game actual-scale image with a watercolor wash treatment. The fake concept arts do not show any finalized buildings. This one above is different, obviously done much later... I may post some as reference but I am no longer sure if what is kosher here anymore. To their credit Maxis have been honest about the size of the cities either in measurement or visually.

Actually the relative position of the city in the last region pic looks a bit like the "specialization" city on the right on this pic (posted by Pyanodon in the transport thread). Another accurate official source guide to visualize actual 2x2 city tiles on a region. Similar-scale widely-separated city plots have been featured on official trailers and pics. You decide if such 2x2 "cities" are realistic.

Good thought. I hope the SC communities will be given the same past SimCity MODDING opportunity with SC2013. But reality and history tells me that once a typical solo offline game get pushed online, the chance for the core fans to improve the game is slim to none.... Complaints will continue here and on official forum even after launch. They could've just called it SimTown Online and I would have been curious enough to poke my head in. But they told us it's a new SimCity and got our core fans hopes up then drop one feature-no-more bomb after another. So what else is there for core fans to do? Complaints may stop eventually, either long after the SC2013 server shuts down, or when offline and modding become possible and all core SimCity features restored so that SimCity becomes like SimCity again.

Here's a reality-based proof that will hopefully once and for all dispel the myth that the new SimCity is looking for a younger audience. Reality is the exact opposite. The 2011 survey on social games clearly demonstrated: 1. Casual social gamers (Facebook "Villes" crowd) are mostly middle-age, with an astounding 62% BEING 40 YEARS OLD AND ABOVE. 2. Hardcore social gamers (MMO crowd) are mostly young under 30s. 3. Social games overall are played by (Casuals) middle age females with excess money and (Hardcores) young males with excess time. 4. Either the majority of Younger Females and Older Males aren't into games as much, OR they prefer playing offline games by themselves. So basically, it is irrelevant if they have more or less responsibilities, 40+ "oldies" buy and play more than 50% of social games. This is why game BUSINESSES, including EA/Maxis, are after OLDER GAMERS. The consensus is SC2013 being online and MP is obviously targeting social gamers. And given how the game has been drastically simplified and prettified, they are targeting the CASUAL social gamers, the 40+ female majority group. Basically, with both social and casual push, SimCity is moving from a younger demographic into a FAR OLDER ONE. Plain business, fine by me etc, but however.... In my view, even after stripping out most of the “core city builder features”, this game remains TOO INVOLVED for the casual social gamers. At the same time, it has ALSO become TOO FLUFFY for the hardcore social gamers, for what is not hardcore enough for the hardcore traditional gamers will not be hardcore enough for the hardcore social gamers. Why would hardcore gamers like the new light & easy SC2013 - which doesn't even impress the likes of softcore gamers like myself! So what other demographic group is there to like this Very Involved Sort of Casual Social Game? It is clear to me the new direction is simply too narrowly-focused and is also why I remain pessimistic of its survival. I hope that there exists a contingency plan to eventually re-engage the traditional core fans sincerely and concretely.

You're right... If you don't build your city to their exact specifications, be ready for the wrath of monkey god! In the new SimCity, players don't get to sim their city their way, but only Maxis way. Dead to creative freedom, hello SimIronCurtain. And then the superhero modders will find a way to make it fun again.

I noticed those bubbles too and sure this map looks like it could hold at least 8 of those tiny squares. The layout in this one is also different from the 'Town Name" video map, and they are probably the large 16 cities map. E?ven the region is double the size of this map we still have to decide if we want to live with pre-existing rail lines and highways. What happens to the towns with no rails running through them? It is constraining enough in CXL players are stuck with static maps with poor terraform tools, but at least they could choose where they lay out their little towns. If offline mode and modding becomes reality, I may even put up with loading 4x4 plots, which is the size of large SC4 maps.

I don't see any fights here please be positive! It's BECAUSE of how everything flows across borders it's worth mentioning. Yes SimCity has had neighboring cities ever since SC2000, but they're taking it to a whole new level this time. No they are not. They're taking it down a whole new level in fact. You miss my point completely but well I'm not going to argue with you, here a simple pic and some basic facts... The pink squares are the size of SC13 plots, yes that's how tiny SC13 cities are, mere SC2000 districts! Pollution and traffic flows between these tiny little city sections, as they should! So basically, there is NOTHING NEW about everything flowing across those SC13 "mini city" borders. Just word gymnastics disguising typical side-effects of online-push. Understand my point now? Peace? I could expand on the regressive map size trend but there's already an indepth discussion

They probably can't show us completed cities because maybe there are only completed towns which they have already shown in plain sight... Actually I also didn’t fret about map size, little concept of what 2x2 SC4 medium translates into, until I saw the shocking video. I also looked everywhere and can’t find any wide-angle city shots, it’s always close-zoom on some buildings surrounded by haze or stylized distant shots. Since everything is hazy, the frame grabs are so far the most accurate official source of the 2x2 limitation. Here’s another view from the same Q&A video showing the next city in the distance, and an interview shot of great work between two cities. This should help illustrate the distance between the 2x2 tiles. Seriously. We need a build-directly-on-region mode.

Without having some actual play time on a more final state of the game it would be premature to make that judgement. It's a safe bet to say the new game "won't be for everyone", but that's hardly a bold statement. The new game in its current form is not for everyone indeed! I’ve been thinking about this and I’m still wondering… 1. SimCity3000 sold 5 million copies. Sim3 original sold 4 million copies. If a game company chooses to reboot a Sim-CITY game, do they focus only on the Sim-HOUSE audience instead of the Sim-CITY audience? Obviously not, one would think, right? 2. Facebook social city games have about 15 million+ FREEMIUM players who never paid a single cent of entry fee to play. These casual gamers already have at least 2 similar freemium games to occupy themselves. Will any business expect this crowd to pay $60 ENTRY FEE just to try out another social city game with guaranteed server connection issues? So is it a good idea to focus the product design ENTIRELY on an unpredictable audience? Obviously not, right? 3. Will any good business keep making sure the multi-million-strong incumbent customer base know that they are NOT the target audience at all? What is the net effect of saying repeatedly “but this is not your game”? Will that lead to sales? Obviously not?!!! Maxis probably know this too, by now hopefully. As much as I hate the SimCityNoMore game design direction with a passion, I do still have faith in the money sense and agility of an established business. So WHY radically deviate from genre traditions just to court an unpredictable crowd, when it is smart business to simultaneously cater to the totally predictable incumbent audience as well? Why not give online/offline MP/SP town/citymap mod OPTIONS like other games in the city-builder-sim genre? If Maxis is too busy, why not consider doing an Apple or Cryengine thing, exploit the modding skills and desires of the long established community, allow Simtropolis teams to patch up the absent features, to help sell more games? I hope Maxis will take this in consideration.

The article: Almost everything flows across city borders: Workers, shoppers, ambulances, buses, water, power and trucks filled with goods. If you are polluting too much your smog might drift into a neighbor’s city (depending on which way the wind is blowing) Of course everything flows across TOWN borders! Hello? What's so amazing about that? It is absurd to have paragraphs talking about an entry-level SC2000 feature. The problem is now everything also flows across HUGE GAPS! Real cities don’t exist in bubbles, but rather as a series of interdependent entities that collaborate and compete with one another. Real cities don’t exist in ISOLATED 2x2 PLOTS but rather as SPRAWLING WEBS of INTERCONNECTED entities! So far not only Maxis is rewriting the meaning of SOLO (global type of solo) PRIVATE (zero privacy) and now CITY (2x2 town). Make your own dictionary, is that how they camouflage their product's blemishes these days?