Hudizzle17

"...in a potential expansion..." Sure, we'll get bigger cities and a few other bells and whistles - which should have been in the original game - after shelling out another $30 or $40 for an expansion.

Originally posted by: clhigh7 personally ,being roman catholic, i believe in creationism only but i dont try an shove my religion an beliefs down other peoples throats. i actually haven't learned about evolution at all,everytime its been brought up in school my parents had me excused from class but i sorta get an idea an it just doesnt really make sense or add up in my headquote> I'm quite surprised you, being a Roman Catholic, apparently don't believe evolution is a fact. The Roman Catholic Church has accepted evolution, though their idea is different in that they think evolution was sparked by a god, and was and is guided by god. Still rather ridiculous, but at least they accepted part of reality. How your parents would not know their own church's position is, as Astronelson said, beyond me. I also find it quite disappointing that your parents took that sort of action. That's blatant willful ignorance on their part, much like someone not wanting to hear the truth by sticking their fingers in their ears and going "blahblahblahblahblahblahblah I don't want to hear it, I don't care blahblahblahblahblah". It's how a lot of religious folk seem to hold up their "faith", by plain ignorance.. Either through willful ignorance, or honest misunderstanding and misguidance, perhaps brought on by those who are willfully ignorant. Hopefully you will eventually learn much more about evolution and the cosmos and everything else surrounding it, and come to an understanding.. or at least just about evolution, since the knowledge of it is something your parents deprived you of (Which I find sad). It may not make sense to you now, and it might never, depending on what your thought process is and what you learn, but one thing for sure is that no matter, evolution is still a part of reality. I do appreciate that you don't shove your beliefs down others' throats though, mainly the creationism thing. That seems to be a quality many Catholics possess, to some extent or another.. My aunt and grandmother are Catholic, my aunt being VERY Catholic, it seems, with crosses and Jesus and Mary figures all around and books and stuff concerning the Vatican and the church and such and countless articles of prayer all about her house, but she and my grandma never talk about their religion or mention god or anything like that, at least not when me and my dad are around (they don't know I'm Atheist, but know that my dad is, at the very least, hardly interested in the church or religion). I can't say the same for many other Christians, who's ability to "keep thy religion to thyself" is seemingly almost non-existent among many. Now, when it comes to Evolution, it may seem like Atheists and agnostics and scientists and biologists and such are trying to push or shove some sort of belief or religion on you when they talk to you about evolution, which is an excuse made by many religious people in order to validate their own view by saying evolution is also just a belief and Atheism a religion, but it's simply not. I've already discussed how Atheism isn't a religion, and almost everybody would tell you the same thing... A good way to put it is a quote I picked up from youtube which says "Atheism is a religion in the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." As for evolution, I've also discussed how some people call it a religion, and how some attach it only to Atheism, but evolution is simply a part of reality, it's not a religion, it's not a "belief" in any religious sense, and it's not purely Atheistic. When people talk about it to you, as well as about the big bang, abiogenesis, the formation of planets and stars and galaxies, the origins and the nature of the cosmos and everything else in it, from black holes and red giants and white dwarfs, to atoms and molecules and quarks and energy and physics, etc. etc., they aren't trying to shove religious views and beliefs down your throat, they're trying to open your eyes to an enriching and vast reality, far more interesting, awe-inspiring , overwhelming and stupefying than any fairy tale in any holy book in any religion. But, one does have to have at least some interest in science, which is something most people don't seem to have, and they seem to have even less of an understanding of even the simplest parts of it all, which is why the fairy tales of the holy books of the world's religions continue to be popular among many, and probably will be for some time yet... Everything is already claimed to be explained, and to be explained simply, by scripture, and one doesn't have to know or understand anything to believe it. Of course you didn't say that any of that was shoving religion down one's throat in any specific way, but I think it's always something important to bring up whenever someone mentions "shoving religion down peoples' throats."

Well, JGellock, you are right about one, and only one thing... Debating would be pointless in this case. To debate someone who's steeped in religious apologetics would, of course, be pointless. But I can't help but say.... "You don't need the bible to put evolution to rest - you just need facts." If that's true, then this thread would not exist, would it? There are tons of creation myths out there, and none of them have ever been able to debunk evolution. The only way to come to the conclusion you have is by looking at everything through the blinders of religious apologetics, which could rationalize myriad beliefs and myths and religions out there, not just Christianity, though Christian apologetics seem to be rather sizeable compared to others. Christianity is not the only religion that claims to have "the truth". There is even a system of Mormon apologetics, and Mormonism has to be one of the most obviously fraudulent and manufactured religions in history. Apologetics can be used to justify many systems of belief and is very dishonest. "its my sincerest desire to see our school systems teach both evolution and creationism. As I mentioned before, we all have choice to believe what we want to believe." Until creationists can actually make a good argument for creationism without relying on faith, without scripture, without biased and dishonest religious apologetics, without misrepresenting facts, data, definitions, etc., without lying, and without the kind of logic that I've mentioned a few times already, and in a scientific way with objectively verifiable evidence that can withstand even the toughest peer review and beat evolution easliy in all areas and increase our understanding of and better explain the complexity and variety of life than evolution, creationism will still be held as a subject of religion, theology, pseudoscience, and myth, and shall not be taught in any public schools as an official or plausible or actual theory. Especially if one is demanding that one specific creation myth of one specific religion is to be taught. This is why creationism loses in court, with a judge who is a conservative Christian, as something that can be taught in schools. What is taught in public schools is not a subject of what you want to believe and what you don't want to believe or what makes sense in your own mind. It is not for propagating relative truth. It's about teaching skills and facts and learning about an objective reality, and the best objective explanations we have, whether one chooses to accept that reality or explanation or not, whether that person understands it or not. When it comes to matters of religion, either send your child to a religious school, to church, or teach it to your child yourself... I say that to anyone who thinks creationism should be taught in public schools. But as said before, it's pointless to debate in this particular case... You know we won't change our position, we know you won't change yours. We feel that you're missing out on something, you probably feel we're missing out on something. We think you're wrong, you think we're wrong..... It could go on and on. So, believe what you want, anyway, as much as that may irk me and my co-thinkers, you do have that right, after all, no matter how wrong it may be, and no Atheist would take that away, only suggest something different and hope that you slowly drift down to reality. Of course doing so does not mean you have to forfeit belief in a deity or even Christianity in some way or other. There are plenty of reasonable Christians who are willing to accept facts as they come along, and they don't resort to the corrupt tactic of apologetics to try and validate every word of the Bible. We only directly intervene when religion tries to inject itself into education and secular areas. Everybody has freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion. I can only hope that in the future these issues are settled and we no longer have to have these debates, at least when it comes to evolution. Cheers.

I have not got it yet, but will soon, as a late xmas present... I will be getting that new ipod nano Not sure what color though...

"And since you're probably wondering which side I've taken after doing my homework, I do believe in creationism - namely the creation laid out in the Scriptures (a.k.a. the Bible). I hope stating that doesn't make you blot out the things I have said before it." Well, I wouldn't say I'd "blot it out", but it makes me raise my literal, as well as metaphorical, eyebrow quite a bit, and makes me take it less seriously. This is so because logic and reason are pretty much never associated with creationism, except by those who are creationists, of course. Not just that, but that one would claim not only that creationism is true, but that the specific creation myth of the Bible is true, out of the myriad other myths to choose from. Anybody who actually does their homework, as well as uses actual logic and reason, will surely not come to the conclusion that evolution is false, in any way. Creationism or creation myths, in their various forms, are merely stories and made up explanations for things that could not be explained at the time of their writings. Those who believe the creation myths usually use similar "logic" or "rationality" to that of the kind you might find at various creationist websites. I was just strolling through the website of "The Institute for Creation Research", and I couldn't believe the level of BS in even just one article alone. As I mentioned in my last post, they wholly misrepresent the scientific community and science in general. What they try to push as "science" does not contribute to humanity's understanding of the world, assumes one specific scripture to be true, and relies entirely on "faith". Choosing scripture over all else like these people do is, in my opinion, Lazy thinking and intellectually dishonest. I agree with astronelson.... I have to wonder what "logic" you used to come to the conclusion that Genesis is in fact... fact. As he said "There is little chance of me changing your mind, or of you changing mine, but I would be interested in hearing your logic, so long as you can do so without referring to the Bible." If you cannot tell us why creationism is true and evolution is false without referring to the Bible or faith, then we might be all ears... That's assuming you don't use the kind of logic as mentioned in this bit from "God Is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens: "One of the creationists' "questionnaires" purports to be a "yes/no" interrogation of the following: Do you know of any building that didn't have a builder? Do you know of any painting that didn't have a painter? Do you know of any car that didn't have a maker? If you answered YES for any of the above, give details." You don't have to answer, and I don't know if you will anyway, but it's certainly a curiosity, but I don't expect to hear anything new in the creationist argument from what I've already heard... If there was actually a valid argument for creationism, then it would be creationism which would be taught in public schools, creationism which the scientific community accepts and studies, creationist videos on youtube with the highest ratings and best comments, creationism with the least laughable ideas, and creationism which would be supported by the most scientific facts.... If you're going on faith alone, though, don't expect us to take it seriously. I could say that the Lord of the Rings is actually a true book, that the characters, places, magic and events in it were real, but that it must be taken on faith alone..... But that would not make it true, and nobody would take me seriously if I said it was. Speaking of which, I also heard a particularly dumb and hilarious argument from a creationist who tried saying that the Bible must be true because "It is such a thick book, and that the writing was so small and there was a lot of it, and nobody would write that much about something if it wasn't true"... So by that logic, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, etc. must also be true. And yes, astronelson, I have seen cdk007's videos. Should have mentioned him earlier as well.

Being a late-comer to this particular discussion, I would like to have something to add here, but after 47 pages and a couple of years, anything I might say will likely have already been said somewhere in the previous pages, but, oh well. I am an Atheist, fully in support of Evolution and still learning more about it as I go along, along with natural explanations for the things many people still try to explain away with simple superstition. Atheism is not a religion. We Atheists don't claim to know everything, or even, at least for most of us, to KNOW that there is no god. We go by things like evidence and probability, and we are content with not knowing the answers for everything. We do not dogmatically hold our views, will change them when actual convincing evidence comes around, we don't have churches and we do not worship anything or anyone (though many Atheists are fans of other Atheists or might have Atheist "heroes"), we do not have a single, or any set of doctrines or rules, and we have no holy books. Many creationists will attempt to downplay the reality of evolution by saying that Atheism is a religion, and that it is only an Atheistic "belief", therefore evolution is merely a religious belief and subject to not being part of an objective reality or fact... Creationists do not push their positions or beliefs by offering any actual evidence, logical explanations or objectively verifiable facts and empirical evidence, but with supposed authority from supposedly holy scriptures, childish, credulous or over-simplified logic (such as "The sun always rises in the East, therefore it must be designed" or "Cars exist, and have a designer, and we exist, so there must be a designer there as well) , numerous fallacies, false dichotomies (also pertaining to what I mentioned about "childish logic"), old, tired and already-refuted arguments, misguided "knowledge", straw-man arguments, opinions and most of all, "faith", which on its own is not proof or evidence, and is a position that must be taken without such things, pretty much by definition. The previously-mentioned methods of debates and arguments are often used by creationists to try and refute evolution. Evolution is wholly misrepresented by the creationist campaigns and those who push creationism the most seem to have no idea what evolution actually is, what it entails or is supposed to explain, and seem to have no ability to understand it or to imagine, how it can or does work, while also being mired in religious preconceptions. Evolution is not about the Universe, planets, or stars. It has nothing to do with the formation of those things. Evolution does not and is not supposed to explain gravity, geology, the weather, etc. Evolution does not say we just came from rocks or "lightning strikes in a mud puddle". Evolution does not say we simply popped out of monkeys, and that the monkeys simply popped out of a few lower species, or even really simply popped out of anything. It is much more complicated than that, which I suspect is why many misunderstand it or reject it. Evolution is not about or supposed to explain the first spark or instance of life. Evolution is not "just an idea" that was simply "made up" by some guy over a hundred years ago. Neither is it "just a theory". Scientific theory is often misunderstood by creationists to imply that there is no truth to the "theory", and so it's just an idea. Evolution is not a "belief" in any religious sense. Evolution is not just a "random chance" or "accidental" process. Natural selection is not random (though most of the genetic mutations that bring about many changes are random). Evolution does not say that dogs give birth to cats, and that crocodiles and ducks can be mixed. Evolution is not synonymous with, limited to or required by Atheists and Atheism, and is not opposed to theism. Evolution does not say that we simply came from monkeys, or that a monkey gave birth to a human. Evolution is NOT a religion, as some creationists claim for reasons already mentioned. There is no such thing as "Evolutionism". Anybody who says evolution is or says any of those things is presenting straw-man arguments, or making simply absurd statements. (No offense to anybody who is a creationist around here, but then again, the truth, or the suggestion of truth is sometimes offensive.) All evolution is, at its simplest: An explanation for the diversity and apparent "design" and "complexity" of life. It is a subject of biology, along with other fields of science related to biology. As for the other things... The origin and nature of the Universe is covered by cosmology, astrophysics, physics, etc. Gravity is covered by theories and hypotheses in physics. The formation of stars, planets, etc. is covered by various hypotheses and theories in astronomy, astrophysics, physics and astrochemistry. The formation of life or or amino acids (usually considered the building-blocks of life) from non-life or inanimate matter is covered by chemistry and the theory of Abiogenesis. Evolution does not fall under the categories of the previously mentioned subjects. All the previous subjects could even be a load of %$&$, and that would not make evolution any less real, plausible, evident or true. Evolution is accepted and supported by the vast majority of scientists, between %95 and %99 (or more) of them. Those scientists who don't are likely most, if not all, trained in other fields of science, and not biology. Simply being "a scientist" does not meant they must reject creationism, though creationism is not scientific. For instance, a physicist, engineer, medical doctor, astronomer, or chemist might reject evolution, but that doesn't take away from the truth or evidence of evolution because those people, while they may be scientists, may not know a single thing about evolution, and are not trained in the field of biology, where evolution is a huge part. A few of those scientists may not be actual scientists at all, but fraudulent "scientists" like the convicted fraudster (Tax fraud, though undoubtedly revealing his true colors) creationist Kent Hovind, who received a fake, cheap "Ph.D.", "masters" and "doctorate" from an unaccredited "university" called "Patriot Bible University", where the only books they use are ones that present absolutely everything in the Bible as fact, if not the Bible itself as a textbook. He simply had a "Christian education", and claimed to teach "high school science" for 15 years, but that was in private Baptist schools. He was not required to have "teaching credentials or accredited qualifications" for teaching at these schools. Creationism is not a scientific theory, but is instead "pseudoscience". It's based on uneducated assumptions by ancient people who were ignorant and devoid of any understanding of reality or the world around them, is taken on faith alone, and is pushed by its biggest proponents through all out lies, deceit, misunderstandings and all-out ignorance. That's all I will say on the matter. There are a couple series of videos on youtube that some here might be interested to see, if you have not heard of or seen them yet, evolutionists and creationists alike, especially the latter, though it could help to bolster the knowledge of those who accept evolution as well. This first series, called the "Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism" is by a Youtube user called "AronRa", who is well educated on the issues being discussed here, and who talks about evolution in a much more in-depth, educated, and eloquent way than I ever could. It's in 15 parts. The first video is here: The playlist is here: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=26253645640BB808 The second series of videos is a series called "Why Do People Laugh At Creationists?" by Youtube user "Thunderf00t", who is also well-educated and a scientist. It currently has 31 parts. the first video is here: The playlist is here: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=FDB764E86EB6CE2E&search_query=wdplac&page=1 Finally, there is another youtube user named "Donexodus", who is also not only well-educated on the subject, a proponent of Evolution, but also a Christian theist, or at least was, I don't know if his position or beliefs have changed since mid-2008, and doesn't seem to make it entirely clear elsewhere on his channel what his stance is now. Anyway... Check out his channel for more videos on Evolution and other creationist matters: http://www.youtube.com/user/DonExodus2#p/u There are also a couple videos there on the subject of Abiogenesis. That is all. I hope I didn't say too much that would offend, at least not much, I just feel passionately about this issue, and I hate when people continue to have these misunderstandings about evolution. I and others can be very frank about it, sometimes to the point of apparent "arrogance" or outright offensiveness. I hope everybody had a great Christmas (the secular meaning, for me), and I wish you all a happy new year, Atheists, creationists, and everybody else alike.

I stopped taking the article seriously at "Christian" Science Monitor. I'm sure there have been "worse" games, if that's the word one might choose to use.

Yeah, he was the ghost in...... Ghost.

I'm not sure if it would count, but right now I'm listening to an audio-book version of "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris. The next book will be "The Portable Atheist" by Christopher Hitchens. I've been getting into those kind of books lately. Good stuff, to say the least.

In any idealistic city of mine, there wouldn't be any churches/houses of worship Maybe a nice looking former-cathedral, acting as some kind of museum, but that's all. But there would be plenty of post offices. Gotta keep the postal workers employed and from being overloaded to the point where they finally snap and say "No more!!", and walk to the gun store to do a little shopping... Though they would have to go to another city, since there would be no gun stores in my idealistic city.

Originally posted by: remixedcat Cats are my religion!quote> Can't argue with that logic!

I'm an Atheist. Also fairly anti-religious. Especially, mostly, organzied religion. I try to respect others' beliefs, but I do find it hard to every so often, especially when those beliefs are, in my opinion, completely insane. (I'd mention specifics, but for the sake of keeping things somewhat neutral, we'll just leave that a bit more open). I especially have issues with people who prosylitize their religions, and those who insist that you MUST believe in something in order to have a good life. I'm also not the biggest fan of extreme fundamentalism (of any religion, not just Christianity), especially when those fundamentalists try to mold society to conform to those views (Such as banning criticism, banning alchohol/dance/rock music, forcing people to wear religious clothing or articles, forcing people to go to church, or establishing an offical church of any state, displaying any religious symbols or articles in government spaces, banning anything that is considered offensive to that belief, preaching religion to the public when nobody asked for it, promoting their religious texts and beliefs in schools and other educational institutions, establishing religious law, etc). Pretty much your typical beliefs of Atheists and the like. I put my trust in science than in what I deem to be, at least for the most part, fictional works of literature. I've heard from a friend once a comparison of the formation of a planet to building a house, to try to justify there being a creator. I'm sure this would seem logical to religious people... to each his/her own, I suppose, especially since logic can sometimes seem subjective (For instance, people's definitions of wright and wrong, a dictator committing genocide who believes that's the only logical solution, etc), but comparing works of nature to a work of man really doesn't seem so logical. Yes, we are fairly advanced, and there are some amazing things out there that may seem perfect, but for me, it does not prove the existance ot a creator. One of my views on religion is also centered around the fact that there have been, are, and probably will always be things that we as a species will not always be able to explain, especially the big questions, such as where we came from, why are we here, HOW did we get here, all that good stuff... And some people look around, and they come to certain conclusions that there must be a god or creator or some supernatural force intereacting with life... For instance, egyptians believing it was gods that moved the sun and moon across the sky, primitave Hawaiian cultures believing a god was responsible for the eruption of volcanoes, Greeks believing it was a god who caused lighting to come from the sky, and countless other examples... These people saw things in nature move about, and thought "wow... These things can't possibly be happening on their own.. there must be a being behind it who is doing it!" It's similar now, except it's mainly with the bigger, yet unanswered questions. A lot of people still insist that there is a creator behind these things, inlcuding some who believe the Earth was "created" by the hand of supreme deity, such as the case with some people here, and my friend who made the house-planet comparison a while back... But what is important to understand in my understanding of the world and nature, is that I don't believe that the planet just popped up on its' own out of nowhere, and with no supreme being doing it... That life just came out of nowhere, and man just popped out from monkeys, and that extreme circumstances of some events that may be considered "miracles" just happened that way... Well that last one yes, to some extent.. With all of that, though, I believe these things happen naturally, but it's HOW they happen naturally that a lot of people don't understand. The many thousands, millions, billions, and trillions of factors involved in determining how things happen. Even I can't explain it all, in this, but it makes sense to me. It's even overwhelming to think about it sometimes! But I find the ideas and theories of science of hoiw we got here VERY interesting, truly amazing, and especially awe-inspiring. Yes, there are a lot of unanswered questions, but I would rather not have those questions answered with a "god did it". When I look at the universe, it stuns me as to how vast it is, and to how little we really know about many things, but the journey to find those answers is really part of the journey of life. When I look, not at our own planet, but at the universe as a whole (though impossible, sicne we can't see the entire universe), the idea of a god, or gods, especially THE god of the world's three big religions, seems utterly nonsensical and ridiculous to me. There are at least 50 billion galxies in the known universe, with 100 billion stars, many more, as well as less in the smaller ones... Assuming there are at least double the number of galaxies in all of the whole univerese, then there are at least 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the universe! And around many of those stars, planets, many may have multiple planets, like our own Solar system, and who knows how many moons around each of them! The numbers are IMMENSE! Now surely there cannot be a god that goes around and watches over and babysits the entire universe. When I look at the big picture, how things happen, what happens, "god did it" just doesn't cut it. This is surely cliche, but... We are all just little clumps of space dust sitting on a planet of rare occurrance, in a typical solar system around a typical star, in a typical galaxy in a usual galactic neighborhood, somewhere within a vast universe that we many never fully see or comprehend.

Here be my apparent scores as depicted by the all powerful political chart: Economic Left/Right: -5.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.08

Well, here goes my journey into this thread: A somewhat recent picture of me: And a slightly older one, but one I use in these instances, anyway:

Heh. Similar to earlier today, their severs have been down for maintenance quite a bit. I hope they smooth things out with the servers for us beta testers. I haven't had a chance to get down to the main beta site yet, since its been down.