The SimTropolis House of Worship

[Meg 368]

Thank you, NOB.   I realize that feelings in this thread can run deep which is why we need to discuss the subject without calling each other names.   As the rule says:  Discuss the issues, not each other.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

This thread is getting so long that maybe we should start a new chapter.  What say you all?

[Barbarossa 51]

,

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

This thread is getting so long that maybe we should start a new chapter.  What say you all?

quote>

It's neither loading slowly nor suffering from significant page flip problems. I see no need.

[Darth Apple 54]

at this rate, it wouldn't be long before re reached the 100th page. Wow... there is something about religion. Perhaps we could simply go on to set the record for the longest simtrop thread ever... We would have to beat the 10,000 post thread first. I donno.

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

This thread is by far my favorite one on this entire site, so I kinda hope that it stays as-is, for the time being.

[Darth Apple 54]

I love this thread as well. I think it that I have spent more time in this thread than any other thread on Simtropolis since joining. It is quite demanding, though. I've learned a lot in it. I'm not especially experienced in the field of religious debate, so it isn't the safest place for me to be, but I have learned a lot. I enjoy engaging in religious debate, and if you understand that, you know a lot about me. LOL. I am well known for that. LOL.

[Meg 368]

I came across this article.   It would be interesting to hear the perspectives from various sides of the pond.

One nation Under God and a lot of stress

By Alyce M. McKenzie

Professor of Homiletics

Perkins School of Theology, and Patheos.com

   

My 21-year-old son got home 3 days ago from a semester spent in Copenhagen, on a study abroad program sponsored by Southern Methodist University (where I teach and he attends). He showed us pictures from the 10 European countries he'd traveled to between January and May. He told us about courses he'd taken in urban design, global economics and the Holocaust, trips he'd made to Carnival in Venice, a death camp in Germany, canoeing in Sweden and skiing in the Alps. He told us about his life with his Danish host family who invited him to dinner frequently and took him on field trips. Back in our suburban Dallas home, his American father grilled steaks on the patio and I wondered how long it would take him to get bored with suburban Texas life after life in Copenhagen.

   

Our convenience oriented, car-driven culture in suburban Texas is a far cry from life in Denmark -- which, according to my recently returned raconteur, features some of the following: riding a bike or walking just about everywhere. having lights that go on and off automatically, recycling all glass bottles, drinking tap water, being able to let your baby in its stroller bask in the sun a bit while you go in and pick up a few groceries for tonight's meal, beautiful public spaces, green parks where people enjoy leisure time, high-speed andd clean trains, not being obsessed with work to the point that family and leisure are devalued, and, by all accounts, a happiness factor that exceeds ours. And Matt mentioned something called hygge (hoo-guh), which I had never heard of.

   

I felt motivated by our conversations to do a little research on Danish culture online and, sure enough, Matt's perceptions seemed on target. Danish cultural etiquette is marked by modesty, punctuality and equality. Attempts to assert oneself over others are viewed with suspicion. It turns out that hygge , which translates "coziness", or, more accurately, "tranquility," is a complete absence of anything annoying, irritating, or emotionally overwhelming, and the presence of and pleasure from comforting, gentle and soothing things. Hygge is associated with family and close friends. It has to do with sitting with candles lit on a cold rainy night or eating a leisurely meal together on a long summer evening. Hygge is a deeply valued traditional concept of Danish culture.

   

This started me wondering why, in the Bible belt, my own life doesn't have as much hygge as the Danes. I discovered that someone has written about this very question. In his 2008 book, "Society Without God: What the Least Religious Nations Tell us about Contentment," Phil Zuckerman (who lived in Denmark from 2005-2006) seeks to account for the fact that Denmark and Sweden have such high contentment quotients in light of the fact that worship of God and church attendance are minimal. His book is, in part, an attempt to counter conservative Christian pundits (Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, William Bennett, Bill O'Reilly, and Paul Weyrich) who swear that a society without God is hell on earth. No, says Zuckerman, based on his experience in Scandinavia. Life in an irreligious democracy can actually be quite pleasant and civil. Denmark and Sweden are strong, safe, healthy, moral, prosperous societies. Unlike countries that have had atheism forced up them by threatening, violent political regimes (China, Albania, the former Soviet Union, Albania) these two countries have evolved into pockets of minimal religious observation of their own accord.

   

Through observation and multiple interviews with Danes from varied occupations, Zuckerman seeks to discover the "unique contours of the world views of secular men and women who live their lives without a strong religious orientation." Many are "cultural Lutherans," who have their children baptized and confirmed and who marry in the church because it is the traditional "thing to do." But they tend to operate out of a rational, scientific worldview, not invested in questions of the holiness of the Bible, the reality of the resurrection, or the existence of heaven or hell.

   

How, wonders Zuckerman, do they deal with questions about the meaning of life and the approach of death? His basic findings are that Danes seem to focus on gratitude for the pleasures and gifts of life right now: family, work, and the beauties of the natural world. They are more interested in their family, home, bikes, careers, weather, and favorite British or Brazilian soccer players than questions of the meaning of life and the existence of heaven and hell. Many of the people he interviewed did not seem fearful about the fact of physical death or particularly curious about whether it was the end of life or if there was an afterlife. They seem to accept both death and the unpleasantness and loss that life can bring as part of the way things are.

   

It is interesting to see one' own life (in the context of one's culture) through the lens of someone with recent, firsthand experience of another cultural context. I know that I am driven by the Protestant work ethic in my vocation as a Professor of Preaching, always striving to learn more and speak more effectively and teach others to do the same. I spend just about all my time thinking about the meaning of life and the significance of the Bible and better ways to share the good news of Jesus Christ. I derive meaning, joy and purpose from my faith. But it's hard for me to look up from my list of things to do long enough to live in the moment or bask in relationships. It's hard for me to shift my focus from goals to gratitude for the gift of life in the here and now.

    

As we sat at a stoplight at a busy intersection in our day of errand running, Matt said, "I feel more stressed since I've gotten back."

  

"I can see why," I said. After a pause, I asked him, "Is there anything about life here you prefer to Denmark?"

   

"Well, Denmark is not a perfect place. They're provided with a lot and it can tend to take away initiative. We have lots of initiative here. We like to get things done here. And life is more convenient."

  

Living in Denmark has had an impact on my son. I predict that he will seek a life that is more communal and relational than the life of individual-achievement-at-all-costs that is a popular version (or perversion) of the American Dream. I don't think he's going to lose his initiative, but I think he is going to seek a life that is more about experiencing hygge and less about being harried. As for me, well, this essay is not about me.

  

Alyce M. McKenzie, Professor of Homiletics, Perkins School of Theology, Southern Methodist University, and Patheos Expert.

quote>

[Cobraroll 138]

Meg, I recognise myself in that situation described in the article. I'm from Norway, which have strong cultural and historical ties to Denmark and Sweden (having spent a hundred years or more in union with each).

Religion is practised minimally over here. There is a state church, where a good 80 per cent of the population are members, but that's not to say 80 per cent of the population are Christians. Parents are often asked if they want their kid to be a member, and if they don't deny it outright, the child is enlisted. The church is more commonly seen as a mere tradition here, not a vital aspect of life. The Sunday attendance in churches vary between 0.8 and 6 per cent of the population, varying between municipalities. The average is just above 2 percent.

The expression "Hygge" is also in use here. I believe it's not as common here as in Denmark, but the idea is the same. Be happy, make others happy, don't be annoying and we're all fine with that.

All over, I'd say about one third of the population define themselves as religious, meaning even the majority of the members of the State Church are agnostic or atheists. I think the average notion among Norwegians vary between "there is probably no god" to "There is a chance there exists a specific god".

However, there have been debates. Whenever fundamental religious people start shouting in the media, especially concerning topics like homosexuality, abortion, or evolution/creationism debate, they meet massive flaming. Sorry to say, but we're quick to deal out the "religious idiot" stamp to fundamentalists here. The state church is for the most part forced to adapt to society, not vice versa. If the state church suddenly demanded that all the members should have to attend services at least monthly, for example, it would have lost all support, and the state religion would fall. Personally, I think the Norwegian state church is one large incident away from toppling over, and I wouldn't be surprised if church and state were separated within five years.

I'd say the majority of the population view the Bible as a collection of old myths. Not exactly fairy tales by definition, but with the same amount of truth in them. There was probably no global flood, no garden of Eve, but the stories are nice to listen to and we can learn a lot from them. All in all, they do no harm, so we're fine with having them in our radio and TV channels, for example (the state controlled ones are obliged to have some religious content, but most people never watch/listen to them). But when someone present them as absolute truth, we raise our voices. Preaching in public is frowned upon. Most of the religious organizations are carried by the elders now, and when they die, so will most of their work. Norway is moving towards full irreligion (or atleast, ir-christianity), and there is a declining trend among muslim immigrants too. The independent churches and other religious organizations will likely last for a fair bit longer than the state church, but membership in those is more often caused by family traditions than a personal belief. They recruit fewer and fewer, though the ones born into membership tend to stay.

Personally, I'm an atheist, but I have religious friends. We rarely, if ever, discuss our personal religion, at least it's not common in this area. It's like asking people what size of shoes they wear; you happen to do it every once in a while, but it's no big deal.

[Duke87 1,070]

Being relatively free from the dogma and all that may make things a bit less stressful... but ultimately, religious observance or lack thereof really has little to nothing to do with it. What makes the difference is cultural. Americans are very competitive and always in a hurry, we want things done and we want them done yesterday. Europeans are far more laid back and don't sweat it if productivity isn't at its maximum or if things take a little more time.

[Meg 368]

Thank you for posting Cobraroll; it's good to hear from someone who is actually there.

Originally posted by: Duke87

Being relatively free from the dogma and all that may make things a bit less stressful... but ultimately, religious observance or lack thereof really has little to nothing to do with it. What makes the difference is cultural. Americans are very competitive and always in a hurry, we want things done and we want them done yesterday. Europeans are far more laid back and don't sweat it if productivity isn't at its maximum or if things take a little more time.quote>

That's part of it but I think it goes beyond that.

I saw an infomerical the other day that was saying "Where will you spend eternity?  It's the ONLY thing that matters."

Well, how is that the only thing that matters?   Some religions (or, to be more accurate, some religious extremists) take that view.  Making themselves miserable and everyone around them miserable is the thing to do because it will all pay off in the afterlife. 

Others take the point of view that "throughput" is what is important.  Get the souls waiting to be born, get them on earth, live an austere life, and then get to the really good part when you die.

As the author of the article above says:

I spend just about all my time thinking about the meaning of life and the significance of the Bible and better ways to share the good news of Jesus Christ. I derive meaning, joy and purpose from my faith. But it's hard for me to look up from my list of things to do long enough to live in the moment or bask in relationships. It's hard for me to shift my focus from goals to gratitude for the gift of life in the here and now.quote>

Who decided this was the "proper" way to spend life?   Does that even make any sense?

Yes, Duke, you are correct that the "do it and do it now" mindset is more prevelent in America than it is elsewhere but the question can also be asked: why do it at all?

What the author is saying, and Cobraroll is verifying, is people over there just aren't stressed about religious issues.  

I don't think it's a matter if "we must be stressed about religion to have a good society".   I haven't checked the statistics lately but, as far as I know, Scandinavia is not a hotbed of violent crime.  Sure it has it's share criminals but it's not like they are rioting in the streets and blowing each other up.

Why are religious extremists of various flavors getting all worked up about things when it doesn't have to be that way?  Scandinavia isn't worked up about it and life over there is going along just fine.

[hym 358]

I saw an infomerical the other day that was saying "Where will you spend eternity?  It's the ONLY thing that matters."

Well, how is that the only thing that matters?   Some religions (or, to be more accurate, some religious extremists) take that view.  Making themselves miserable and everyone around them miserable is the thing to do because it will all pay off in the afterlife.  quote>

Who says they are necessarily making themselves miserable?

Why are religious extremists of various flavors getting all worked up about things when it doesn't have to be that way?  Scandinavia isn't worked up about it and life over there is going along just fine.quote>

The answer is in your post.  It doesn't have to be that way to you, but to them it does.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: hym

I saw an infomerical the other day that was saying "Where will you spend eternity?  It's the ONLY thing that matters."

Well, how is that the only thing that matters?   Some religions (or, to be more accurate, some religious extremists) take that view.  Making themselves miserable and everyone around them miserable is the thing to do because it will all pay off in the afterlife.  quote>

Who says they are necessarily making themselves miserable? quote>

Okay, point taken.   Perhaps not all of them are miserable.  or perhaps "miserable" is too strong a word.

But many, if not most, of the ones I know aren't happy.  How can they be?  

Why are religious extremists of various flavors getting all worked up about things when it doesn't have to be that way?  Scandinavia isn't worked up about it and life over there is going along just fine.quote>

The answer is in your post.  It doesn't have to be that way to you, but to them it does.  quote>

and my question is why?   It all seems contradictory to the purpose of religion.   but, of course, that depends on one's view as to what the purpose of religion is.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Meg

But many, if not most, of the ones I know aren't happy.  How can they be?quote>

Their religious beliefs are a source of comfort for them.  It's very easy to be religious and be happy; the vast majority of the ones I know are happy.

and my question is why?quote>

Because that's the nature of things.

It all seems contradictory to the purpose of religion.   but, of course, that depends on one's view as to what the purpose of religion is.quote>

You're looking for an answer that makes sense from your own POV, and you will never get one because it doesn't exist.  The only way you'll understand them is to look at their world from their POV.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: hym

Their religious beliefs are a source of comfort for them.  It's very easy to be religious and be happy; the vast majority of the ones I know are happy.  quote>

I'm not talking about "religious people".  I'm talking about people who believe that where you spend eternity is the only thing that matters.

and my question is why?quote>

Because that's the nature of things.quote>

It's the nature of things for people to obsess over future events at the expense of what is happening now?   Not for everyone, obviously.

You're looking for an answer that makes sense from your own POV, and you will never get one because it doesn't exist.  The only way you'll understand them is to look at their world from their POV.  quote>

okay.  I'm listening.

[fukuda 351]

A correlation between religion and individualism? I seriously doubt it.

Modesty, punctuality and equality are considered virtue by most religions and ethics, including Christianism (at least according to Christ himself). I've lived in religious countries as Morocco or Senegal and most people were as laid back and content than any european even living with way less material possessions. Same thing happens in deeply christian South America.

It's imho more a matter of culture than one of religion as Duke pointed out. (actually europeans do sweat it if productivity is not at 100%, they're just not obsessed with it).

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Meg

I'm not talking about "religious people".  I'm talking about people who believe that where you spend eternity is the only thing that matters.quote>

Fair enough.  My mistake.

It's the nature of things for people to obsess over future events at the expense of what is happening now?   Not for everyone, obviously.quote>

The idea I was trying to get across was that to those who believe that where you spend eternity is the only important factor, it is necessary for them to be worked up about it.  If they didn't get worked up over it, one would logically question whether they even considered it important.

okay.  I'm listening.quote>

I can't show you their world from their POV.  It requires possessing the skill to truly suspend your own beliefs on the issue.  The individual must learn to do this on his own.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

People's expectations of the afterlife is not something anyone should obsess over.  If you live an upright, not uptight, life then if there is an afterlife, you should be OK.  However, being uptight about it is OK if you don't expect everyone else to be the same, otherwise there is a major sin of presumption here.  You can never know about the state of grace, yours or anyone else.  See the transcript of the trial of Joan of Arc on this.

[Darth Apple 54]

A Nonny Moose: Being uptight about it and being prepared for it are two different things. If a severe (actually severe, not 58 MPH winds!) storm was coming, then you would want to be prepared for it. You would not want to be obsessively worried, but you don't want to be injured by a storm either.

I believe it is important for us not to rationalize out the idea of heaven and hell because we don't want to face it. This could be disastrous.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

I think we have a meeting of the minds here, but we use different semantic values to get the idea across.  The very idea that you could do something so heinous in the eyes of the creator that he would doom you for all eternity to a place of suffering is rather old school.  I like a couple of recent theological definitions I saw somewhere:

Heaven ::= Being in the presence of God

Hell ::= The permanent absence of God

[Darth Apple 54]

Well, this is a commonly mentioned point. "If God is so loving, then why would He send us to hell?" The problem is, those who ask this question have only seen and consider half of the point. God's righteous nature is that sin has to be punished, yet we miss the fact that God's son came down to a cross to pay for our sins. Whether or not we choose to place our trust in Christ is our choice, but the choice of where we want to spend eternity is also our choice. God's holy nature requires that our sin is to be payed for. Sin is rebellion against God. It is not reasonable rebellion either. It is "inexcusable" by the way we think of wrongdoings, yet I find it amazing that Christ's love would be so great that He would hang on a cross for our sins. The idea that God is not loving is only based on one half of the story, but this is a slanted view because it does not take into account what God did in order to offer salvation -- it only considers half of the story and is biased.

John 3:18 (NLT) says:

""There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. "

This is a matter of personal choice, but we are not hopeless because salvation is offered to us through Christ.

[Cobraroll 138]

I find the issue of Heaven and Hell in Christianity a little problematic.

First and foremost, why is sin never punished in, you know, real life? It would be a bit of a warning if atheists or people from other religions were regularly struck by lightning, or that a high percentage of abortion doctors suffered stroke within a few weeks into their practise. If mortality rose 70% on Saturdays, wouldn't people be more tempted to pay more respect to the third commandment? Instead, we get to hear (never from The Authority himself, but from his believers) that you WILL be eternally punished for wrongdoings, but that's after you die so it's impossible for others to even trace it. If there was an omniscent being that wanted to keep people from sinning, why wouldn't he warn us directly in stead of vaguely referring to some damnation after the (non-traceable) soul leaves the body?

As far as I know, the Bible never refers to a specific hell. I know "a sea of fire" is mentioned at some point, but that could be interpreted as practically everything (for example, God is sometimes manifested as some sort of fire, i.e. in a bush or a pillar (Moses story). Couldn't it be that "The sea of fire" refers to God himself? Heaven either way?).

My largest problems with religions, still, lie not in the details. It's the big picture, the religions as a group. Not one of them have more objective evidence to support itself than others. They all make equally much sense if you apply their internal logic (and equally little sense if you don't). Most of them have been abandoned over the course of the years. Hundreds have had their claims directly disproved (Thunder caused by Thor's hammer, for instance, it's impossible to argue for nowadays). What makes the "modern" religions better than the thousands of ancient, abandoned ones? So why should I favour any of them, while they all seem equal, apart from the details? Why should I believe Jesus is the source of love, when other, equally sensible religions say Aphrodite or Freya?

As far as I see it, religions only make sense as long as you apply their internal logic. Once you understand why you discard all the other religions, you will understand why I discard yours too (quote from some guy).

[Sam 163]

Originally posted by: Cobraroll

Why should I believe Jesus is the source of love, when other, equally sensible religions say Aphrodite or Freya?

quote>

And why should we not simply accept the simple and logical explanation that humans themselves are the source of love instead of being expected to believe all kinds of convoluted claims and explanations as true and for which no evidence can be produced. It all sounds a bit suspicious to me.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

All religions are man made myths.  No matter how much wealth a religion collects or how wide spread, it is only an expression of fearful mankind to have an afterlife.  Everyone is afraid that when your lights go out, there is nothing.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Darth Apple 54]

Once again, when we say that sin isn't punished right now in our world, we miss a large part of the picture. Sin is punished in the nature of the world we see today. When someone murders, usually, they are imprisoned. When someone steals, they pay restitution, and so on. Why do some not get punished for the acts, however? Well, I believe that the reason that few drop dead for their sins is not because they haven't sinned. I believe that instead, this is God's grace. God is patient with us, wanting us to come in repentance. That doesn't mean that God doesn't hate sin. In fact, He wants us to turn from it and is waiting for us to repent. I personally find it amazing that God spared me! I admit that I know of more sins I've committed than I can count, and I find it truly amazing how gracious and merciful God is. That doesn't mean that we should willfully sin either. God hates this, and this rarely goes unpunished in our world today. Even if it isn't direct, we usually face consequences for our actions.

If we do not repent and turn to Christ, however, we can expect to end up in eternal punishment. I have yet to find a single reference in scripture that suggests that hell is a place where God's presence is! I have yet to find even a single hint of this in scripture. If it was a place where God's presence was, then why did Jesus come and die on a cross to try to save us from this place?

Is religion a man-made idea?

Many believe that man made the idea of God because he needed something he could turn to. Well, I would object to this by saying that if most could have their way, they wouldn't have a god at all, and yet something within us causes the vast majority of people to wonder about God's existence.

Many surveys have turned in results that the vast majority of people do indeed believe in God's existence. These surveys show that only a small percentage of the population is atheistic. There is even a lot of speculation about whether many of these are true atheists.

Something forces us to re-think God's existence, even though most of humanity does not like the idea of God's existence. It doesn't tingle with our ears that well, yet something forces us to re-think, which is evidence for God's existence. this proves that religion is not man-made.

[Cobraroll 138]

^They say that in Norway, only 47 percent explicitly stated that "they believe in a specific god" in a recent poll (can't find the numbers, sorry). In countries like France, Sweden and the Chezc Republic, the percentage is a lot lower (below 20). I've asked a lot of my friends and relatives, and at most, they regard the "God" idea as ranging between "bollocks" to "perhaps...". In countries like the US, there might not be many atheists, but over here it's very common, to the point that explicit theism is uncommon. Typically about 2% of the population attends church regularly, while at the same time the majority of the people are registered in the state church (mostly due to tradition).

Then also, far from everybody believes in the same god. No religion, no matter how successful throughout history, has had at least twice as many oppressors as supporters. For each believer in Jesus, three people believe that he was anything but the son of the Guy In Charge. If a specific somebody wants to make us re-think, he, she or it doesn't seem to be very concerned about exactly WHAT we believe in.

I believe that, in the next two to three hundred years, the major religions will fade away. It has already started some places in Europe, and it will continue to spread with education and secularising throughout most of the Western world. This is not to say the belief in "something greater" will be gone, but people will stop calling it fixed names, worshipping it, and it will have relatively little influence in society as a whole. After all, the vast, vast majority of history's religions are now gone, and a lot even totally forgotten. The difference is, today, there won't be another religion to replace them.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: blakesterville

if most could have their way, they wouldn't have a god at all, and yet something within us causes the vast majority of people to wonder about God's existence.quote>

Sorry, but this idea that most people would rather there not be a god doesn't pass the smell test.

It is an overwhelmingly prevalant trait of humanity that people have a psychological need to be comforted by the fact that someone or something is looking out for them. For children, it is their parents. For adults, well, it's typically a god or other sort of supernatural presence. Although it can also be an institutional presence, which explains why atheists tend to be big-government liberals.

We know for a fact that people believe what they want to believe. We've even identified what part of the brain is responsible for filtering what we see and hear through our set of preconcieved notions, remembering what supports them and ignoring what contradicts them. There is nothing magical or special about people believing in god. They do it because they want to. And those that don't want to, don't. It's that simple.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Hmm... I am not afraid that death is the final blackout. That would be oblivion and I would cease to exist, so there is no pain, no punishment, no burning in a lake of fire. However, I do fear the act of death. Namely, a painful, protracted demise, LOL.

Barbarossaquote>

Then make a living will and cut off the possibility of heroic measures when you are terminal.

Originally posted by: blakesterville

 God hates this

quote>

How can you possibly know?  Claiming to know the mind of God, if you are religious, is one of the deadly sins.  The sin of presumption.  Repent!