Simtropolis Religion Thread

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

This post was in another thread but I'm going to answer it here.

Religious people generally oppose this because it makes the term "marriage" meaningless in a legal situation, and ultimately it is the legal authority they want, not the religious freedom.

I'm not sure that what they want is legal authority so much as it is a desire to see recognition of "God" as a supreme being and a component of daily life. Changing the term from "marriage" to "civil union" is meaningless from a religious standpoint, so it certainly doesn't affect them that way. It does however, give the impression that "God" is considered less and less important in public life, and this is something that concerns some people.

There is a problem with "God" being a part of public life: whose idea / perception / experience of "God" is going to used?

Let's say that Person A believes in God and Person B believes in God but their beliefs are radically different.

Why should the belief system of Person A dominate public life?

Your founders were all Christians of various stripe. It doesn't matter what the interpretation of "God" is. Every religion that has a "God" acknowledges either a single one, or a chief one who is often referred to as "God" whether it designates Jaweh, Allah, Jove, Odin, or whoever.

The iconoclasts among us would like to remove all reference to "God" everywhere. I fail to see why it matters. Religious belief is a personal matter, and while some faithful prefer an organized setting, as long as they mind their business and stay out of politics, the points raised are moot. In the Catholic Church, at least, marriage is a synonym for having received the sacrament of Matrimony, which is a life bond. I don't think the sex of the bonded is relevant, but the Church disagrees. So?

[Meg 368]

Your founders were all Christians of various stripe.

Not by today's standards they weren't. Many of them were freemasons. and many today hold the view that freemasons can't be "real Christians". Which is as ridiculous as saying those of us who live in high density areas are not "real Americans".

The country has a definite freemason history but, today, people want to ignore it because it doesn't fit their own narrow definitions of how things should be.

It doesn't matter what the interpretation of "God" is. Every religion that has a "God" acknowledges either a single one, or a chief one who is often referred to as "God" whether it designates Jaweh, Allah, Jove, Odin, or whoever.

I'm not sure that a billion Hindus would agree with you there.

Religious belief is a personal matter, . . .

Indeed. Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one but don't go waving it around in public and try to shove it down other people's throats.

and while some faithful prefer an organized setting, as long as they mind their business and stay out of politics, the points raised are moot.

But that is the problem. They are trying to mind other people's business and they are not staying out of politics.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

@meg: You have something against Vishnu? I think you'll find that most Hindus think he runs the show.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Easy Bakes 253]

Religious belief is a personal matter, . . .

Indeed. Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one but don't go waving it around in public and try to shove it down other people's throats.

Wow, that was a completely unexpected example. It does work, though. I have to give you that, lol.

Barbarossa

especially from Meg

[Meg 368]

@meg: You have something against Vishnu? I think you'll find that most Hindus think he runs the show.

ah. Good point. I forgot that.

Religious belief is a personal matter, . . .

Indeed. Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one but don't go waving it around in public and try to shove it down other people's throats.

Wow, that was a completely unexpected example. It does work, though. I have to give you that, lol.

Barbarossa

Yes, I guess that was unexpected. But it's the best example I've heard.

Think about it: People who have one consider it to be very important to their lives. But that doesn't mean the public wants to share. It shouldn't even be shared in private unless the other people involved are willing to share. Some things should be kept private. As the saying goes, it's TMI.

[Darth Apple 54]

It kind-of feels good to be open with people, though. I struggle with that a bit, mainly because I go from being a huge extrovert to just the opposite in a matter of hours, and it depends on my mood. (Who doesn't?) Still, one moment I'm locked up, and the next I wanna talk about everything, LOL.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

It kind-of feels good to be open with people, though. I struggle with that a bit, mainly because I go from being a huge extrovert to just the opposite in a matter of hours, and it depends on my mood. (Who doesn't?) Still, one moment I'm locked up, and the next I wanna talk about everything, LOL.

The main thing is to avoid insistent proselytizing.

One of the greatest curses of our early history in this country were the French Jesuit Missionaries, who talked a good streak, got accepted by the native peoples, then broke the rules and got burned at the stake. This caused a lot of misunderstanding by the French authorities and the result was shameful. People shouldn't get into the canon by being a pain the the gluteus maximus.

The Church still thinks these guys were martyrs, but they were really just ignorant, closed-minded, and misguided, and not really very good sociologists or they would have known what would happen. One of the earliest Darwin awards like many "saints".

  Edited June 1, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[hym 358]

Indeed. Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one but don't go waving it around in public and try to shove it down other people's throats.

What is wrong with a public display of religious beliefs?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Depends on the volume of the trumpet. A discreet lapel pin, neck chain, or charm bracelet is kind of minimal, but you get the idea. No one has the right to push his beliefs on anyone else unless interest is shown.

[Meg 368]

Indeed. Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one but don't go waving it around in public and try to shove it down other people's throats.

What is wrong with a public display of religious beliefs?

So much of it is a matter of opinion. and, yes, we do have the legal right to state our opinions in this country. But, as the saying goes, just because we can it doesn't mean we should.

Take, for example, the Westboro Baptist Church. In their minds, they are publicly displaying their religious beliefs. To many people, even the KKK, they are a hate group.

Do you find their public display of religious beliefs to be appropriate? Why or why not?

Depends on the volume of the trumpet. A discreet lapel pin, neck chain, or charm bracelet is kind of minimal, but you get the idea. No one has the right to push his beliefs on anyone else unless interest is shown.

I agree. That's it exactly.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

I would place the Westboro Baptist Church so far to the right that the KKK look like center left. One can't stop the ravings of the town idiot short of killing him.

[Darth Apple 54]

Well, there is a difference between sharing beliefs, and being a hate group like Westboro Baptist Church. What really amazes me is that Westboro Baptist Church call themselves a "church". I am in no way in support of what they are doing.

I think it's best to share beliefs in a respectful way, UNLIKE what westboro is doing. I'm almost tempted to send Westboro a nice beautiful email that works against their very basis for the "God hates [sELF-CENSORED]" signs. The only problem with doing that is that I'd be wasting my time trying to change their views. They'd just hate me too.

P.S. The Bible doesn't even teach that God hates people. If He did, his love would be conditional. The Bible is clear that God's love is not conditional upon people's behaviors. Westboro prefers to take things out of context and use that as permission for what they are doing, and I find that quite offensive, as a Christian. That doesn't mean that God approves every behavior, however. The Bible is clear that He doesn't, but while he might hate homosexuality, He does not hate people just because they are homosexual. We've all sinned, we all need grace, and God's love isn't conditional.

Before you accuse me of "knowing the mind of God" again, please understand that my understanding of this is based largely on what I've read in the Bible.

  Edited June 2, 2011 by blakesterville  

[Easy Bakes 253]

New evidence that religion may have preceded Agriculture.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/mann-text/1

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Even hunter-gatherers must have been mystified by some of the natural phenomena around them. It must have taken a lot of cooperation to build that thing, and therefore some kind of organization must have existed. Very likely a determined group of shamen.

Whenever man is stuck for an answer, he turns to some elder or wise-man, who generally feather their own nest with some myth or other. I wouldn't call some of the native tribes in Africa at the turn of the twentieth century farmers in many cases, but they had established taboos and religious beliefs. I shouldn't think one would have to go to ancint Mesopotamia to find such things.

Most myths are mythtakes, without a doubt.

[astronelson 339]

Well, yeah, Australian Aboriginal tribes had (and some still have) religions all of their own, and they never developed agriculture. It is likely these religions or their predecessors have existed for most of the 40,000 to 125,000 years they've been here.

[Meg 368]

Göbekli Tepe is interesting, though. They obviously spent a lot of time and effort building it. and it's not obvious why.

Sometimes I wonder what parts of our so-called civilization are going to survive. Odds are good that most of the important stuff isn't going to last too long. For instance, electronic records are very fragile in the overall scheme of things. A few thousand years from now, what will people find? Some big metal bridges? I imagine their purpose would be obvious but who knows? Some guy will probably decide we regarded them as gateways to the afterlife or something.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Geological forces being what they are, your metal bridges will be iron-rich strata in some level of the sedimentary rocks. The mystery will be how it got there at all. I don't expect any of our artifacts to survive the next ice age,which should start in about 20,000 years or so.

Because the great Egyptian pyramids are in the torrid zone, they may live up to their reputation, namely "Man fears time, but time fears the pyramids". Weathering may or may not totally destroy them as it is doing a pretty good job now with the help of the local residents who have been mining them for building materials. The tomb robbers archaeologists have pretty much cleaned out anything of "value" including the Pharaohs themselves. So much for ascent to heaven via that myth.

As for why the Asia minor peoples built that pile of rocks, it is anyone's guess. Right now it is an attraction of tourist dollars for the Turks. I think they also have the ruins of several editions of ancient Troy under their wing as well. Too bad the Trojan Horse was made of wood, eh?

In the geologic scheme of things, man is a day fly. Bzzt * * . . .

[Bdub01 201]

Well since there is a lot of religious talk lets revive this thread. If its not a good idea then a moderator can lock it. (Someone did mention this thread, I didn't go looking for it, just sayin').

[lhrob 213]

Well since there is a lot of religious talk lets revive this thread. If its not a good idea then a moderator can lock it. (Someone did mention this thread, I didn't go looking for it, just sayin').

 

Well, you revived it...so what do you want to talk about?

[Bdub01 201]

Lol idk just figured there's a lot of religious talk on the creation vs evolution thread and before the mods say get back on topic this thread is perfect for talk bout the Inquisition and other things brought up in the other thread...

[Meg 368]

Lol idk just figured there's a lot of religious talk on the creation vs evolution thread and before the mods say get back on topic this thread is perfect for talk bout the Inquisition and other things brought up in the other thread...

 

 

What he said  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Actually, I think this old meat is pretty well chewed through by now.

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

To be honest, I didn't mind the off topic stuff going on in the creationism vs. evolution thread. It lead to some interesting points and they usually end back on topic. I generally treated that tread in my mind as a general religion thread.

Hence my lack of "get to the point" posting

[LexusInfernus 908]

Indeed, you can only repeat all the science behind evolution so many times before the novelty wears off. 

[lhrob 213]

General question to Christians - or anyone else, really, if you wish to answer:

Upon what foundation do you base your beliefs about Jesus and the faith - your own authority, or the authority of the church and Scriptures? How did you come to believe what you believe?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

lhrob:  An interesting question.  I am an older person, and I've been around a long time.  My position on Christian belief has gone through a lot of soul searching on my part and lots of discussion with others.  I conclude that:

 

1.  There is a historical Jesus.

2.  He was indeed executed by the Romans at the time of Pontius Pilate's tenure in Jerusalem.

3.  I like his ethics.

4.  Notwithstanding references to the Old Testament, his teachings completely shut down the Law of Moses and replaced it with the one great commandment.

 

Whether he was a part of the "Holy Trinity" is not part of my conclusions.  Nor is the resurrection.  These are matters of faith and cannot be questioned.  Do I believe this?  Well, I was certainly brought up to do so.  Now, I think at best I am a Christian leaning agnostic.

 

Recent archaeological evidence says there wasn't enough wood available for anyone to be hung up on a cross as seen in all the religious art.  The Romans used a pair of crossed hunks of wood in the form of an X.  The rest is artistic licence.

[anytownUSA 32]

General question to Christians - or anyone else, really, if you wish to answer:

 

Upon what foundation do you base your beliefs about Jesus and the faith - your own authority, or the authority of the church and Scriptures?  How did you come to believe what you believe?

 

 

I do not base my religious beliefs on the authority of the church.  The church is entirely people, and people are flawed sinners.  Thats the whole point of Christianity, we are all sinners and need salvation.

 

I base my religious beliefs on the Bible, my own personal experiences,and history, but mostly faith.  Faith is our best tactic for growth and dicovering the truth, as individuals and for mankind as a whole.  There is far too much to learn and take in from this universe.  We will never 'know it all' or 'figure it all out' someday.  My own experience is that I first must believe, then God works in my life. 

 

As far as a basis for issues of right and wrong, the Bible is the best source of truth.  I used to think consuming alhohol was sinful.  However after reading verses that supposedly supported this belief, I determined that they actually pertained to gluttony, and I decided that alhohol is not morally wrong.  Rather, gluttony is wrong.  So I suppose the Bible and faith is what I base my beliefs on.

[IL. 1,043]

This is abit interresting since it makes things make more sense.

I figured out lately from some quotes from the prophet Mohamed (pbuh) and the Quran, that says that Adam was not the first human being that God created him and then created Eve and then here we are, but rather chose Adam (pbuh) as a prophet from other people, but in arabic, there are two different words for humans, the first one is "Bachar" wich is a more general world that is used for living things that are like humans (that walk on two legs, have a skin, infact "Bachar" comes from the word "Bachara" wich means, skin) and the second word is "Insan" or "Ins" wich is used for us, modern humans, who are the decendents of the prophet Adam (pbuh), effcorse you can still say that we are "Bachar" but we are also "Insan" or "Adameyin" as "the related to Adam", "Adam descendents", etc..

So the people who were before Adam were not "Insan" but "Bachar", that God created, and then then chose Adam and gave him a soul and made him was we are.

 

 

& here we can use the evolution idea, God created all the living things of water (as said in Quran and God knows best, sorry I'm not a relegious scholar), also God created all the living things on steps ("Al-Irtikaa" or in other words, moving to the better, improving, also in other words, evolution) effcorse here we are not saying it's random, it looks random to us, everything that we can't examine or look at is without finding a pattern we say it's random, it can have a very random pattern for example, 1.05121544214564123789456... you see no pattern here, but at some point, if you can look further, you may find one, for example, we can find 1.05121544214564123789456 05121544214564123789457 1.05121544214564123789458 ...

Also God told us to look at God's creation and try to understand, so that we can see the greatness and power of Allah. So when Allah chose Adam, and gave him a soul he was the bigenning of us, humans, who can think, who can choose and who are different from animals.

 

Infact, God created us on steps,before becoming us "Insam" we were "Bachar", before giving us a soul and the gift of the "Aakl" or the "aware mind" or something around that, we can choose to do good things or bad things, we can choose unlike the animals who are born and living by instinct (you don't see any dogs who are living with us and man's best friend also who have a high intelligence, starting a civilisation? I may be trying to explain this in the wrong way, but you got the idea).

 

 

Effcorse we can never say that we have the absolute truth or that we can understand everything or that we understand it perfectly, because that would be a big ignorance and arrogant.

& may God know the best. 

 

 

As for after that, for the story that Adam and Eve were in heaven, they were created on Earth and from  Earth, and God then made the heaven as their home (some scholars say that that heaven is an Earth heaven, and others say that it's the eternal heaven) anyway, and then you know the story of the tree and how they made the mistake and asked forgiveness and God forgave (In Christanity God never forgave them and Even in some sects have been considered as a creature with no soul and only created to reproduce and satisfy Adam) them and sent them back to Earth (or took them out of heaven) as a test intill the time comes to go back. etc.. but that's not our topic (this is a more relegious topic) 

[Mr Saturn64 742]

Interesting idea, but I'm not Muslim, so I believe what I want, you all believe what you want.  No need for any debate