Bad RL Highway example (according mrtnrln's RHW seminar)

[alvinheriadi 2]

Hello, i join the mrtnrln's seminar, I was taught to build real highways. But after googling (google maps), i surprised there are weaving points, complex interchanges (2 trumpets for highway exit), and another highways problem. All examples are from Indonesia. Let's see it!

http://maps.google.c...002642&t=h&z=19

You see the weaving segments? It's very dangerous to me, but many engineers don't care about it because no room. The exit-entrance distance i measured is about 80 meters. Violates tip number 3.

http://maps.google.c...002642&t=h&z=19

Another weaving segments, but better than above and only 1 weaving segments in the northen part. But the southern part is seperated like Partial Collector-Express. Violates tip number 3.

http://maps.google.c...010568&t=h&z=17

Too Complex!! I see 2 trumpets, if no tollbooth installed, the fatal weaving occured. Y U NO SIMPLIFY IT? This design violates tips number 3 and 7.

  Edited April 12, 2012 by alvinheriadi  

[iowndiscti 141]

yeah those are bad RHW's. you'll have to understand a bit about topography to understand why though. Where im from ( Midwest America) or even where Mrtnrln is from ( Netherlands) the terrain generally runs from extremely flat lowland areas to Slightly hilly plains and various plateaus. Indonesia in general is very very mountainous, and very confined in size ( as in availble room to build). also, most of indonesia is heavily forested,which is something else that is a problem for freeway developers. lastly, Indonesia does not have the resources that a completely populated country ( Like china, America, or U.K) would have so having weaving points, or even two compact trumpets that save space compared to one large cloverbine that would most likely have terrain issues is way more acceptable.

  Edited April 8, 2012 by iowndiscti  

[Duke87 1,070]

http://maps.google.c...010568&t=h&z=17

Too Complex!! I see 2 trumpets, if no tollbooth installed, the fatal weaving occured. Y U NO SIMPLIFY IT? This design violates tips number 3 and 7.

The tollbooth is the reason for this design. All traffic exiting here must pay a toll, so exiting traffic is channeled together so only one toll booth is needed. With a simpler interchange, more tollbooths would be required and it would be more expensive to operate.

All-electronic tolling would solve this problem. Such systems have been in place for 20 years in Europe and 10 years in North America, though I don't know that Indonesia would have the resources.

[MandelSoft 2,769]

Time for some comments from the "expert"

http://maps.google.c...010568&t=h&z=17

Too Complex!! I see 2 trumpets, if no tollbooth installed, the fatal weaving occured. Y U NO SIMPLIFY IT? This design violates tips number 3 and 7.

The tollbooth is the reason for this design. All traffic exiting here must pay a toll, so exiting traffic is channeled together so only one toll booth is needed. With a simpler interchange, more tollbooths would be required and it would be more expensive to operate.

All-electronic tolling would solve this problem. Such systems have been in place for 20 years in Europe and 10 years in North America, though I don't know that Indonesia would have the resources.

Indeed, that's the reason why a double trumpet has been used here. To me, this isn't actually overly complex. What I call overly complex are solutions that are unnecessary complex for its functionality. In Real Life, due to economic reasons, you don't see these solutions that much, but in SimCity on the other hand I see it a lot more...

And I agree with the above two posters. Keep in mind that Indonesia is not that rich and probably doesn't have the resources to finance (or they simply don't have the knowledge to build) a really proper freeway network. It's worse to see a country fail to make proper interchange while it has enough budget to build them. I'm talking about Western-Europe, North America, Japan or Australia. They have little excuse to fail in interchange designs. Also, you have to make a distinction between old and new interchanges. Old interchanges are often build with lower standards and are therefore often crammed, tight and over-capacity. It's that last point that also makes these kind of interchanges hard to reconstruct without blocking traffic...

http://maps.google.c...002642&t=h&z=19

You see the weaving segments? It's very dangerous to me, but many engineers don't care about it because no room. The exit-entrance distance i measured is about 80 meters. Violates tip number 3.

That's indeed very short, I guess only 100m.

http://maps.google.c...002642&t=h&z=19

Another weaving segments, but better than above and only 1 weaving segments in the northen part. But the southern part is seperated like Partial Collector-Express. Violates tip number 3.

That's only a by-way, where you can often expect lower traffic intensities and speeds compared to the main lanes. I see that it's not much being used, so I wouldn't do anything about it for now...

http://maps.google.c...005284&t=h&z=18

Looks like a blocky and chaotic Parclo AB and too complex. Try simplify it. Violates tips number 4 and 7.

Again, this is a toll station. You have to slow down here to pay toll. And I disagree that this is an complex design. It's actually a simple parallel exit, and I sometimes build these my own. You're confusing that all this is a single interchange. I see one grade-seperated interchange, an overpass and some at-grade intersections.

http://maps.google.c...002642&t=h&z=19

A 4 level T interchange (road geek's favourite), but has steep slope in south - west connector about 15% (I experiencing it when i go from south to west). Slightly chaotic but not chaotic as American Interchanges, but also produce eyesore. Violates tip number 5.

If you ignore the surface roads, you can see a simple directional T-interchange. The surface roads make it look more complexs than it really is. But the picture is very vague, and I haven't seen it in SV or real life, so I can't make a real judgement of this one. And again, we're talking about Indonesia here, not a rich Western country...

Best,

Maarten

[Linoa06 1,374]

Oh even in a rich Western country there can be very aberrant examples, I'm sure.

Beginning by magic circles or the highways around/into Paris (yes, along with those floodable expressways)

[mittfh 7]

Here in the UK, someone's written a comprehensive guide to the UK's Bad Junctions, including the truly amazing (*cough*) M50 J3.

Meanwhile, we also have a junction that looks absolutely fiendish from the air but isn't actually that bad to navigate: Gravelley Hill Interchange, a fiendish bit of engineering since a river, a railway line and a couple of canals also pass through the site. The road to the south west also has a feature that can't be modelled in SC4: tidal flow. During most of the day, the seven lanes are divided into three inward bound, a separator lane, and three outward bound. During the morning rush hour it's reconfigured to four in, two out; while the evening rush hour is four out, two in (always keeping one lane clear - although the aerial photo suggests not everyone takes notice...).

[MandelSoft 2,769]

^^ Now those are really bad juctions! I've seen that site before

By the way, the interchange to the A38(M) doesn't seem to look that bad, but if you go further west you suddenly get this. Why on earth does a undivided 7-lane road have a motorway status?! It looks rather unsafe to me and it's also listed on Pathetic Motorways (also a quite funny site). But then again, there are more questionable motorways in the UK, such as the M58, the M67, the A601(M) and the former A6144(M)

Best,

Maarten

[mittfh 7]

Not to mention the M49, which is a glorified 5 mile long pair of sliproads...

[Linoa06 1,374]

/me doesn't see what's wrong with M49 at all, it potentially avoids a good deal of transit on the junction ahead.

[alvinheriadi 2]

I want ask, why American rural highways have intersection and the road type RHW-4 or RHW-2? I think is not a highway, but a intercity road.

^^ Now those are really bad juctions! I've seen that site before

By the way, the interchange to the A38(M) doesn't seem to look that bad, but if you go further west you suddenly get this. Why on earth does a undivided 7-lane road have a motorway status?! It looks rather unsafe to me and it's also listed on Pathetic Motorways (also a quite funny site). But then again, there are more questionable motorways in the UK, such as the M58, the M67, the A601(M) and the former A6144(M)

Best,

Maarten

Undivided means traffic can drive in right side (LHD), then head to head collisions occured. I see example of undivided RHW-4 (much like RD-4):

http://maps.google.c...002642&t=h&z=19

  Edited April 12, 2012 by alvinheriadi  

[MandelSoft 2,769]

No, undivided means that the whole road is made up from one single surface. No median devision with a barrier or a patch of grass, just a painted line. Undivided roads are pretty sensitive to frontal (head-to-head) collisions, which are quite bad when they happen.

My definition of a freeway is following the dutch one and it goes as follows:

• Controlled access
  
• At least two lanes per direction
  
• Inclusion of emergency breakdown shoulder lane
  
• Requires a physical seperation, like a concrete or steel barrier
  

If these requirements aren't met, then it's no freeway.

Best,

Maarten

  Edited April 12, 2012 by mrtnrln  

[mittfh 7]

There are a couple of single carriageway motorways in the UK - although they tend to be very short and are generally used as a glorified sliproad. The exception, of course, is Aston Expressway. While it is theoretically a seven lane single carriageway for much of its length, in reality it functions as a six lane road, with an empty lane separating the two halves (as the central lane contains the gutter, motorcycles are barred from it for their own safety).

Morning rush hour: NNNN-SS

Between times: NNN-SSS

Evening rush hour: NN-SSSS

Another concept increasingly being used over here is ATM (Active Traffic Management), also called Managed Motorways. This includes a combination of VSL (variable speed limits) enforced by numerous gantries, VMS (variable message signs) and cameras; hard shoulder running (hence at intervals there are buildouts for emergency refuges); and CCTV mounted on the gantries watching the hard shoulder, so if a car breaks down on the hard shoulder and can't reach the emergency refuge, the hard shoulder behind the car is closed and traffic diverted onto the three 'normal' running lanes.

[alvinheriadi 2]

No, undivided means that the whole road is made up from one single surface. No median devision with a barrier or a patch of grass, just a painted line. Undivided roads are pretty sensitive to frontal (head-to-head) collisions, which are quite bad when they happen.

My definition of a freeway is following the dutch one and it goes as follows:

• Controlled access
  
• At least two lanes per direction
  
• Inclusion of emergency breakdown shoulder lane
  
• Requires a physical seperation, like a concrete or steel barrier
  

If these requirements aren't met, then it's no freeway.

Best,

Maarten

And more question:

You using RHW3 that not meets the Dutch standards in your CJ. You creating a German based CJ or Dutch based?

Off topic Question: Maarten, do you have an xlnation account?? Do you want pitty's (or pitti in simtropolis) Realistic Highway Mod??

  Edited April 12, 2012 by alvinheriadi  

[MandelSoft 2,769]

You using RHW3 that not meets the Dutch standards in your CJ. You creating a German based CJ or Dutch based?

I don't call that one a freeway. It has a lower classification.

Off topic Question: Maarten, do you have an xlnation account?? Do you want pitty's (or pitti in simtropolis) Realistic Highway Mod??

Nope, I quit CitiesXL a long time ago. Was dissapointed about the game and I find it very quirky and buggy, especially when it comes to modding. Though I'm impressed by pitti's work...

Best,

Maarten

[katherman111 182]

No, undivided means that the whole road is made up from one single surface. No median devision with a barrier or a patch of grass, just a painted line. Undivided roads are pretty sensitive to frontal (head-to-head) collisions, which are quite bad when they happen.

My definition of a freeway is following the dutch one and it goes as follows:

• Controlled access
  
• At least two lanes per direction
  
• Inclusion of emergency breakdown shoulder lane
  
• Requires a physical seperation, like a concrete or steel barrier
  

If these requirements aren't met, then it's no freeway.

Best,

Maarten

lol if tip 4 is allowed then i probably don't have any kind of freeway or highway or whatever ;-)

[iowndiscti 141]

And more question:

You using RHW3 that not meets the Dutch standards in your CJ. You creating a German based CJ or Dutch based?

Actually it doesn't meet the American standards either. There is a little known secret that (I’m not sure about the other continents) us North Americans do that is completely wrong. We interchangeably use the terms freeway and highway. A freeway must meet the standards that mrtnrln listed abovewhile a Highway does not have to simply because it is supposed to be tolled, and therefore requires lower speeds. However most highways in America do follow freeway standards simply because of capacity (it would require less upgrading in the future). freeways usually can travel up to about 75 MPH (120KPH) and connect cities over an extended region, while Highways usually connect important places in a specified region and its suburbs, can be tolled, and only travel about 55MPH (90 KPH). for an example please see FDR drive in new York ( http://g.co/maps/gahbb) It technically has freeway designation because it meets mrtnrln's standards, and its classified as a freeway by the state of new York, but is tolled and the speed limit is 40-50 MPH.

In conclusion, I consider RHW2 & RHW3 to be Highway, while anything else above that is Freeway (with the exception of RHW4, because currently it can be tolled thanks to a stex release)

  Edited April 12, 2012 by iowndiscti  

[MandelSoft 2,769]

@iowndiscti: Agreed, with a slight difference that my highways aren't tolled, but have lower standards and thus lower speed limits, and often they have lower intensities too (I use RHW-3 purely to get a low-capacity highway with safe overtake manoevres).

No, undivided means that the whole road is made up from one single surface. No median devision with a barrier or a patch of grass, just a painted line. Undivided roads are pretty sensitive to frontal (head-to-head) collisions, which are quite bad when they happen.

My definition of a freeway is following the dutch one and it goes as follows:

• Controlled access
  
• At least two lanes per direction
  
• Inclusion of emergency breakdown shoulder lane
  
• Requires a physical seperation, like a concrete or steel barrier
  

If these requirements aren't met, then it's no freeway.

Best,

Maarten

lol if tip 4 is allowed then i probably don't have any kind of freeway or highway or whatever ;-)

Well, I can see past that, since SC4 RHWs don't have median barriers (yet), because they are hard to realise. Especially the slopes and diagonals look buggy, as I figured out in my experimentation. To me, for SC4 a separated RHW is close enough for me

  Edited April 12, 2012 by mrtnrln  

[Cob92 360]

And more question:

You using RHW3 that not meets the Dutch standards in your CJ. You creating a German based CJ or Dutch based?

Actually it doesn't meet the American standards either. There is a little known secret that (I’m not sure about the other continents) us North Americans do that is completely wrong. We interchangeably use the terms freeway and highway. A freeway must meet the standards that mrtnrln listed abovewhile a Highway does not have to simply because it is supposed to be tolled, and therefore requires lower speeds. However most highways in America do follow freeway standards simply because of capacity (it would require less upgrading in the future). freeways usually can travel up to about 75 MPH (120KPH) and connect cities over an extended region, while Highways usually connect important places in a specified region and its suburbs, can be tolled, and only travel about 55MPH (90 KPH). for an example please see FDR drive in new York ( http://g.co/maps/gahbb) It technically has freeway designation because it meets mrtnrln's standards, and its classified as a freeway by the state of new York, but is tolled and the speed limit is 40-50 MPH.

In conclusion, I consider RHW2 & RHW3 to be Highway, while anything else above that is Freeway (with the exception of RHW4, because currently it can be tolled thanks to a stex release)

Freeways are a type of highway. As far as I know, the criteria for a freeway are:

1) Limited Access.

2) No at-grade intersections with other roads or highways.

3) At least two lanes per direction

4) Some sort of median, whether it be made of grass, concrete, or steel.

Freeways can be tolled, and the installation of tolls on a freeway is not automatically an indication of lower speeds. Perhaps if the tolls are frequent they may reduce the speed, but it is entirely possible to have a tolled freeway with traffic flowing at ~80 MPH under good conditions. In addition, electronic tolling systems make stopping at actual tollbooths completely unnecessary in many cases.

A highway is any road designated as such by state or national authorities; their speed limits depend on the level of development in the area and can range from 30 MPH all the way up to 70+. Typically a highway will connect two areas of interest, and those can be anything from two small villages in the countryside to two major business districts in a large city.

  Edited April 12, 2012 by Cobhris96  

[alvinheriadi 2]

And more question:

You using RHW3 that not meets the Dutch standards in your CJ. You creating a German based CJ or Dutch based?

Actually it doesn't meet the American standards either. There is a little known secret that (I’m not sure about the other continents) us North Americans do that is completely wrong. We interchangeably use the terms freeway and highway. A freeway must meet the standards that mrtnrln listed abovewhile a Highway does not have to simply because it is supposed to be tolled, and therefore requires lower speeds. However most highways in America do follow freeway standards simply because of capacity (it would require less upgrading in the future). freeways usually can travel up to about 75 MPH (120KPH) and connect cities over an extended region, while Highways usually connect important places in a specified region and its suburbs, can be tolled, and only travel about 55MPH (90 KPH). for an example please see FDR drive in new York ( http://g.co/maps/gahbb) It technically has freeway designation because it meets mrtnrln's standards, and its classified as a freeway by the state of new York, but is tolled and the speed limit is 40-50 MPH.

In conclusion, I consider RHW2 & RHW3 to be Highway, while anything else above that is Freeway (with the exception of RHW4, because currently it can be tolled thanks to a stex release)

Freeways are a type of highway. As far as I know, the criteria for a freeway are:

1) Limited Access.

2) No at-grade intersections with other roads or highways.

3) At least two lanes per direction

4) Some sort of median, whether it be made of grass, concrete, or steel.

Freeways can be tolled, and the installation of tolls on a freeway is not automatically an indication of lower speeds. Perhaps if the tolls are frequent they may reduce the speed, but it is entirely possible to have a tolled freeway with traffic flowing at ~80 MPH under good conditions. In addition, electronic tolling systems make stopping at actual tollbooths completely unnecessary in many cases.

A highway is any road designated as such by state or national authorities; their speed limits depend on the level of development in the area and can range from 30 MPH all the way up to 70+. Typically a highway will connect two areas of interest, and those can be anything from two small villages in the countryside to two major business districts in a large city.

In Indonesia, all freeways tolled. Speed limit in smooth terrain is 62 MPH (100 km/h), in rough terrain and narrow freeways is 50 MPH (80 km/h). But minimum speed is 37 MPH (60 km/h).

  Edited April 13, 2012 by alvinheriadi  

[Duke87 1,070]

My definition of a freeway is following the dutch one and it goes as follows:

• Controlled access
  
• At least two lanes per direction
  
• Inclusion of emergency breakdown shoulder lane
  
• Requires a physical seperation, like a concrete or steel barrier
  

If these requirements aren't met, then it's no freeway.

I dunno. There are quite a few urban freeways in the US which do not meet the third requirement (little to no shoulder, at least in places) and quite a few rural freeways in the US which do not meet the fourth (grassy median only).

.for an example please see FDR drive in new York ( http://g.co/maps/gahbb) It technically has freeway designation because it meets mrtnrln's standards, and its classified as a freeway by the state of new York, but is tolled and the speed limit is 40-50 MPH.

Okay, first of all, there are no tolls on the FDR. Secondly, it doesn't meet mrtnrln's standards because it lacks shoulders. I would definitely call it a freeway (even though nobody in New York City uses that term in common vernacular, we think it's what they call "highways" in California ), although it is a pretty crappy one.

  Edited April 14, 2012 by Duke87  

[MandelSoft 2,769]

^^ Not true. The FDR does have a wide shoulder lane. Therefore it is a freeway.

[Cob92 360]

^^ Not true. The FDR does have a wide shoulder lane. Therefore it is a freeway.

There are freeways, however, that have barely adequate or completely nonexistent shoulder lanes (driving through inner Houston I see them all the time, though many have been rebuilt to better standards recently). Most of these are found in the downtown areas, where the freeways date back to the 1940s-1960s and were built to a lower standard than modern freeways. These freeways also tend to have narrow lanes and fairly short ramps.

And I don't remember seeing much of a shoulder on the FDR last time I visited Manhattan.

  Edited April 14, 2012 by Cobhris96  

[Duke87 1,070]

The FDR does have a wide shoulder lane.

It most certainly does not... at least not in most places. In most places, like many sections of freeway in New York City, it's "Shoulders? What are those?"

[MandelSoft 2,769]

^^ Indeed, you're right. I'll take back my point....