SOPA

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I am beginning to think that SOPA is a kind of Judas goat. What else has slipped past while we glared at this little gem?

[Duke87 1,070]

Yesterday there was this.

And then there was this.

Nice to know they found their sanity.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Yesterday there was this.

And then there was this.

Nice to know they found their sanity.

"Off agin, On agin, gone agin"

Finnegan - an old railroader joke.

The political stupidity of toying with the freedom of the Internet is going to get someone elected? Ha!

[Alejandro24 575]

Yesterday there was this.

And then there was this.

Nice to know they found their sanity.

The land of the liberty makes me laugh a lot . Without wishing insult anybody, but United States is becoming a 1984 state.

[Shadow Assassin 336]

Yesterday there was this.

And then there was this.

Nice to know they found their sanity.

The land of the liberty makes me laugh a lot . Without wishing insult anybody, but United States is becoming a 1984 state.

So are a lot of other places. This is just the most public example.

[Alejandro24 575]

Yesterday there was this.

And then there was this.

Nice to know they found their sanity.

The land of the liberty makes me laugh a lot . Without wishing insult anybody, but United States is becoming a 1984 state.

So are a lot of other places. This is just the most public example.

But that's the point (or the problem too). United States presume too much about being the land of liberty and prosperity when they're going to a 1984 dictatorship. It is incongruous, catches the point?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Yesterday there was this.

And then there was this.

Nice to know they found their sanity.

The land of the liberty makes me laugh a lot . Without wishing insult anybody, but United States is becoming a 1984 state.

So are a lot of other places. This is just the most public example.

But that's the point (or the problem too). United States presume too much about being the land of liberty and prosperity when they're going to a 1984 dictatorship. It is incongruous, catches the point?

Welcome to the alarmed (and perhaps amused) foreign observers club gentlemen.

How many police forces do you have in your country other than municipal forces where the city can afford them?

In Canada we have:

RCMP - Royal Canadian Mounted Police - Founded before Confederation - Internal Federal Policing - who also contract in some provinces as local police and who also police the Northwest Territories.

CSIS - Canadian Security and Intelligence Service - MI6/NSA equivalent.

Provost Marshall - Limited to the military police service and the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice)

Some provinces are large enough to have a provincial police service that leaves only federal affairs to the RCMP.

In the United States, I've lost count. And they are getting more and more power (NDAA) and less accountability. Some of them even have domestic black ops.

  Edited January 29, 2012 by A Nonny Moose  

[Easy Bakes 253]

Just around here in DFW we have the local city police, Dallas and all the suburbs have their own forces,and some also have the various sub branches like CSI,gang units and SWAT. every town also has sheriffs w/ several deputies,Marshals and their deputies,Constables,The Texas Rangers and local FBI. The DFW Airport has their own police force, i think love field uses the Dallas police and TSA + transit police for DART but i think they are under the Dallas Police.

Seems most of them now are relegated to writing traffic tickets.

[Duke87 1,070]

Different cops for different jobs. FBI handles federal crimes. State police patrol state highways. County and/or municipal police (any given location may have one or the other or both, depending) patrol county and local highways and fight crime locally.

The issue isn't the number of forces, it's what they have the power and the willingness to do.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Both of you only looked at the local scene. An American habit, I believe.

Let's see. You have at least:

Secret Service

FBI

HSA

DEA

NSA

CIA

Border Patrol

CIS

IRS

etc. All of them with powers of arrest.

I can't list them all because I just can't think of the names. I don't include the military, who are a separate operation altogether.

Of those listed above, in Canada, the duties of all of these except NSA and CIA fall to the Mounties. CSIS handles the rest.

[hym 358]

Okay, let's analyze some of these:

• Secret Service: Yes, the Secret Service can be considered a police force if you consider its ability to investigate counterfeiting sufficient to call the entire agency a police force. For the record, this responsibility cannot be easily handed to the FBI; the Secret Service operates internationally in ways that the FBI never could.
  
• HSA: Perhaps you mean the DHS? If so, you can't easily call that department a police force; the DHS is an "agency of agencies," not a specific agency in itself.
  
• DEA: Yeah, it's a police force. However, once again, it operates in ways that the FBI isn't likely to be able to do.
  
• NSA: The NSA is not a police force. The NSA is focused on foreign signals intelligence and cryptography. (Admittedly, it has done more than that, but that is a separate issue.)
  
• CIA: The CIA is not a police force either. It's a civilian intelligence agency.
  
• Border Patrol: Yes, it's a police force.
  
• CIS: I suspect it does not qualify as a police force. From what I've seen, when INS was split up, CIS did not pick up the immigration enforcement responsibilities.
  
• IRS: This is iffy. Yes, the IRS has the ability to arrest someone, but that doesn't make it a police force anymore than the Department of Education or the USPS (both of whom have police divisions).
  

The power of arrest does not make an agency a police force. If it did, every private security firm in the US would be a police force.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

And how many other agencies of your government are able to apprehend and detain people? When does habeas corpus cease to operate? Under the NDAA, any of your forces can arrest someone and stick him in a hole, never to be heard from again. The NDAA is an authorization to "disappear" people.

Every citizen of Canada has the power to make a citizen's arrest, but this is strictly limited to turning over any such miscreant to the official police. Because there may be force involved, most people don't chance it. There is also the possibility that you will be found at fault and charged with assault or worse.

[hym 358]

And how many other agencies of your government are able to apprehend and detain people? When does habeas corpus cease to operate?

There are quite a few US agencies that have some sort of law enforcement division. Nearly all of these divisions exist to enforce a very specific part of federal law.

Also, apprehension and detention are separate things. Many law enforcement agencies have the power to apprehend, but not the capacity to detain. If there is reason to detain you, you're handed over to whatever jail/prison system has appropriate jurisdiction.

Under the NDAA, any of your forces can arrest someone and stick him in a hole, never to be heard from again.

This is not correct. The NDAA doesn't give just any federal agency the ability to stick just anyone in any hole that they like. The NDAA provides the option for military detention of individuals accused of terrorism. The military gets to stick you in a hole somewhere, never to be heard from again.

Despite the very definite problems with the NDAA, it is vitally important to maintain proper distinctions as to what is actually said. The federal government encompasses both the military and civilian spheres, and they are very different divisions of the government.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Under the NDAA, any of your forces can arrest someone and stick him in a hole, never to be heard from again.

This is not correct. The NDAA doesn't give just any federal agency the ability to stick just anyone in any hole that they like. The NDAA provides the option for military detention of individuals accused of terrorism. The military gets to stick you in a hole somewhere, never to be heard from again.

Despite the very definite problems with the NDAA, it is vitally important to maintain proper distinctions as to what is actually said. The federal government encompasses both the military and civilian spheres, and they are very different divisions of the government.

OK, I stand corrected on that. However the ubiquitous nature of your military makes the whole thing reprehensible. Too many military commanders have a Napoleon complex to suit a free society. Again, who will watch the watchers (and grabbers)? There has to be some kind of oversight on this because it violates the very basic rights of a citizen before the law, UCMJ or not.

[Alejandro24 575]

...

Welcome to the alarmed (and perhaps amused) foreign observers club gentlemen.

How many police forces do you have in your country other than municipal forces where the city can afford them?

...

Thanks for the welcome Nonny, and sorry if I answer to late, I've been to busy with the homeworks.

Police levels in Mexico:

• Municipal: is responsible of the municipalities of the states, in some cases when there are a metropolitan area the Police is unificated in one.
  
• State (Policía Estatal): preventive, is auxiliary for the municipal police and the federal corporation.
  
• Ministerial Police (Policía Ministerial): preventive and investigation functions, state level.
  
• Federal (Policía Federal): a corporation with many branches, roads, preventive, investigation, special forces, attorney, etc... with federal jurisdiction.
  
• Militar (Policía Militar): only for militar purpuoses, don't have juridiction over civil cases.
  
• CISEN (Centro de Investigación y Seguridad Nacional): secret services and national security, like CIA.
  
• AFI (Agencia Federal de Investigación): preventive, ministerial, investigations, inteligence, like FBI.
  

In resume that is all the police corporations in the country, each one have a lot of branches. But that's the most important info.

  Edited February 10, 2012 by Alejandro24  

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 9, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Duke87 1,070]

The problem is corruption. In Mexico, bribery will get you everywhere with law enforcement and in some cases police will even demand bribes in exchange for reasonable treatment. In the US, cops are more interested in beating the crap out of people than in lining their pockets, and attempting bribery is very likely to get you in trouble. In the US you need to dodge the police in order to get away with organized crime. In Mexico you can simply pay them to look the other way.

The authorities in the US probably also have a lot more technology at their disposal which makes hiding from them a lot tougher.

  Edited February 10, 2012 by Duke87  

[Ocram's Razr 964]

I very much hope that the people realize what is going on and rise up against the tyranny and actually change the government by actively voting in large numbers and submitting initiatives.

If I may repost this image from MCF

1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The comment about police corruption in Mexico is like the kettle calling the pot black. One should be careful about making generalizations about countries, because they are often misplaced as to verity. The culture there is different.

Ours is different from the American culture. You might say we are more conservative and formal than Americans. I am not in a position to comment on other cultures even though I may have visited their countries.

One should refrain from stowing thrones while living in grass houses.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

I have witnessed first hand bribery in Mexico. My dad paid for a ticket up front when vacationing in Cancún. His rental car was acting up and the traffic cop pulled him over and he did not have his wallet. He said that he needed to check for his wallet at the rest stop halfway back to the hotel. So he got a police escort and got his wallet back and paid the cop $50 (500 pesos) when he found his wallet then we went to Xcaret without a problem.

[Alejandro24 575]

Well, the problem here is in a single word a negligence of years and between two nations, if not three nations or more. Why? As US, Mexico had a golden ages in the 50's and 60's, but from the 70's the government simply dropped all, everything, lets remember in that time the govenrment was a mono-partisian dictadure by PRI. Since 70's to 2000's technically that political party destroyed the advances of the past, stagnating the development of the country between crisis and social problems. We know very well that this is the perfect seed for the crime. Now, that governments encouraged the settlement of the drug cartels, because Mexico -as Colombia and Spain in Europe- is a traffic route, not the destiny.

The time passed, in the 2000 the dictadure finished, with the election of the ex-president Vicente Fox, and the country growed progressly in the correct way. In 2006 was when the problem started. The actual president, Felipe Calderón, declared the war to the the drug cartels. Is not bad idea, but seems to be that in these moment were not a plan for that war. The president started it just like that and here we are now. I'll not gonna say that this administration of Calderón were bad, the country is still growing, the actual economy incluging is more much better and stable than the economy of US. So, we're not in the wrong way, is just that problem.

Barbarossa, your perspective is not wrong, Mexico is on par with US in police infraestructure and training. And is good to have curiosity to know more. The problem is that the strategy of Calderón didn't cleaned the corporations and army before to start. The problems are localized only in some parts because are the doors of entry and exit, if you look the problems are in the gulf coast, Veracruz and Tamaulipas, there are important ports, in the pacific around Guerrero, Michoacán and Sinaloa because there are another ports and the border with US. Everbody knows why in the border and in the ports.

The point of Duke87 can be answered with the same arguments, it just take to connect the points. As A Nonny Moose says is not fair to generalize, we have our problems, but nothing that we can't to solve, as another countries, including US and Canada. Is important to say that United States is not so clean in corruption, and there are good and bad cops, just like here and another parts of the world.

And as I said to Barbarossa, we are on par with US, the difference is we don't presume and we restrict our activities to our terrotory. Now, US don't seems to want to help, because If US wants to help with this the government would act with the simple fact of treat and carry on of his drug addicts and guns traffic. US speaks a lot about how bad are another countries, but US never gets into the shoes of another countries and when gets involved in a problem of this kind the government and its people looks to another way, show sensationalism in the TV (see CNN, Telemundo and Univision) and give alerts of is not good to travel there because they're killing our people. Did you know that all the US-Americans killed in Mexico in the lasts 6 years had ties with drug trafficking? Is hard to know it, sad but true. Nobody is perfect.

OcramSeattle, your father lives in the United States or in Mexico? If first, he do the same in the United States?

I'm not like that people from Mexico that wears a green shirt of the football selection and scream Viva México. Maybe I'm not too patriotic as anothers. But I want to do something for my country, I don't know what exactly, but something. I appreciate my country, maybe not in a convencional way. And I can say: hurts to see your land broken because the negligence. Is not a civil war or a worst problem fortunately.

...

Mexico has been getting some bad press lately, and this shows that there is more there than drug cartels and gangs.

...

I started this thread for speak about the SOPA law, and watch where we finished.

  Edited February 13, 2012 by Alejandro24  

[Larks2242 251]

Website up to recall Lamar S. Smith.

Among others that should be a priority to remove. If they want to destroy the internet, they have no reason to be employed by people who use it in their Daley life.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

My dad is from Guadalajara but he immigrated here to the United States when he married my mom.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Website up to recall Lamar S. Smith.

Among others that should be a priority to remove. If they want to destroy the Internet, they have no reason to be employed by people who use it in their Daley life.

From the pun on Daley, I infer you must live in the windy city.

I see you have a "little list" like the Mikado. He is good at punishments. For example: The Pool Shark --

" ... in a place that's always barred.

"And there he plays extravagant matches

"In fitless finger stalls,

"With a cloth untrue, and a twisted cue

"And elliptical billiard balls."

Sir W. S. Gilbert in The Mikado - Act I Scene 2

To take a note from this, I propose a place for overzealous legislators:

An oubliette filled with useless paper that requires all of the prisoner's strength to file before he can eat. The papers keep showering in from above.

---

@Alejandro: That last post was rather turgid. I would be a blessing if you would edit it with some white space to separate the sub-topics in that long paragraph to make it more readable. I am afraid I gave up. I know you were probably pretty hot when you wrote it, but take a cool head to it now and please fix it up.

  Edited February 13, 2012 by A Nonny Moose  

[Meg 368]

@Alejandro: That last post was rather turgid. I would be a blessing if you would edit it with some white space to separate the sub-topics in that long paragraph to make it more readable. I am afraid I gave up. I know you were probably pretty hot when you wrote it, but take a cool head to it now and please fix it up.

Alejandro is, imho, doing a very good job of expressing himself in a second language. I am currently learning his first language, Spanish, and I couldn't begin to express myself as clearly as he does.

I do agree about the white space. I find it difficult to read a wall of text with no line breaks. My eyes aren't what they used to be and they were never that good to begin with.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

He wrote my name in bold so I only read the first couple of sentences, what was aimed at me, and the last part.

I try to avoid text blocks. By the way Spanish is easy, especially if coming from another romance language, English is hard, so are Asian languages (different letters).

Seeing as Alejandro reads books written in German and Russian, he most likely has a firmer grasp on language than any of the rest of us.

  Edited February 13, 2012 by OcramSeattle  

[Alejandro24 575]

@Alejandro: That last post was rather turgid. I would be a blessing if you would edit it with some white space to separate the sub-topics in that long paragraph to make it more readable. I am afraid I gave up. I know you were probably pretty hot when you wrote it, but take a cool head to it now and please fix it up.

Alejandro is, imho, doing a very good job of expressing himself in a second language. I am currently learning his first language, Spanish, and I couldn't begin to express myself as clearly as he does.

I do agree about the white space. I find it difficult to read a wall of text with no line breaks. My eyes aren't what they used to be and they were never that good to begin with.

Ok, the text is corrected now, more spacing between the paragraphs. And, thank's Meg.

  Edited February 13, 2012 by Alejandro24  

[Meg 368]

By the way Spanish is easy,

Except for the verbs and verb tenses. Still working to wrap my mind around those.

Ok, the text is corrected now, more spacing between the paragraphs. And, thank's Meg.

You're welcome. and thank you.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Thanks a lot, Alejandro. That's much easier on my old eye.

There is no question that power corrupts. Every barrel has its rotten ones, and sometime worms. Great vigilance is needed because not all of the watchers have watchers, and some of them get the bit in their teeth. Often great harm comes from the very best of intentions.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Spanish has less verb tenses than English but the tenses sound unique. Also, rarely anyone uses present perfect or future tense. Especially since "I will" translates to "voy a."

Also, Spanish is very similar to Latin (most people think that Spanish has the most similar pronunciation to Latin, with Itallian using too many embellishments).