Civil Unrest in America

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Want to buy a bridge?

Obama and Co. have more problems than an election. The mob is stirring.

[hym 358]

So what if they had a protest? It's not like people haven't been staging protests over Wall Street before.

[Easy Bakes 253]

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere.

Thomas Jefferson

  Edited October 2, 2011 by Easy Bakes  

[Duke87 1,070]

Demonstrators clashing with the police is actually a pretty regular occurrence in New York. It just doesn't usually make national news.

And it's not like far worse hasn't happened. Protesting students took over Columbia University in 1968. In 1988, a riot broke out in the East Village after the city attempted to remove homeless people from the neighborhood. (Those are two good examples. I could name several more.)

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I don't recall having 700 people arrested at one of these. Protest in America is fine, but the number of arrests seems like a lot of paper work over not much.

Oh, and why do protesters think any government can do anything about global warming? It is just a buzz word that gives them excuse to make noise.

  Edited October 3, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[Duke87 1,070]

When people get mad and form a mob their demands are not necessarily going to be realistic.

[chicah 20]

A lot of people have been waiting for this for a long time. Their campaign "we're the 99%" is a really good campaign. It shows the unfairness of the American economical system. I wish I was in New York so I could join the protest. I'll say more on the subject later, need to finish my article atm.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

A lot of people have been waiting for this for a long time. Their campaign "we're the 99%" is a really good campaign. It shows the unfairness of the American economical system. I wish I was in New York so I could join the protest. I'll say more on the subject later, need to finish my article atm.

Yes, interesting that "Wall Street" is the target when what they really are attacking is the entire, unregulated free-market system. Mammon has surely set the feet of stock and commodity traders well and truly on the Primrose Path. And many of the big banks are in lock-step.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Interesante

Spanish for interesting. I don't know much more Italian than greetings, insults/swearing, and food/restaurant related words.

This is very interesting and I cannot find the words to describe this event.

  Edited October 4, 2011 by OcramSeattle  

[Duke87 1,070]

Interesante

"Interessante" contiene due s. Perche parli italiano? É preferito parlare inglese in questo foro.

But back on topic... one thing I've noticed. From some pictures I've seen, this protest is getting huge. And yet... it's not getting talked about much. Seems as though people who are not ideologically aligned with the mob are being mostly dismissive of it and ignoring it.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Duke87 1,070]

Are you serious? Really, do you think any of the conservative channels (ahem, Fox) is going to cover news for liberals? Everything is slanted or simply absent. Just look at their focus, look at the news you get. It isn't being covered because they don't want to draw any attention to the other side of the aisle. They've been doing it for a good 5-6 years now. Remove your head from the sand, my friend.

I understand why the media might downplay it, but that's not what I'm talking about (worth noting: I have not watched any significant quantity of news on TV in months). What I'm saying is that friends, people at work, etc. aren't talking about it. Usually when something big happens you would expect it to become a topic of conversation, regardless of what people's opinion of it is. But this hasn't. Nobody's talking about it. Were it not for this topic and a couple friends on Facebook I would barely know it was occurring at all. It's kind of eerie, actually.

On another note, they have demands.

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

Which just goes to show you the nature of this crowd. Out of touch with reality much?

[Easy Bakes 253]

these guys dont want much do they?

Demand 1:

20/hour minimum wage? Not realistic at all considering most make much much less then that.

besides all that would do is drive prices up to match.

is stuffing tortillas at taco bell a 20/hour job?

D2:

Good idea but probably will never happen

D3:

So they want to add every one to welfare? if thier living wage is 38K [ie $20/hour]

thats a lot of money that really isn't in the system.

D4

if they want to pay every one a living wage whats the incentive to

get an education? even if its free.

D5&D7 are about the same thing.

Good ideas but to decommission the hydro plants and Nuke plants is the dumbest idea

i have heard in a while.

No new hydro plants is a good idea, and only level existing ones when the reservoirs have filled in to restore the natural salmon runs.

D6:

Yes great idea.

D8:

we already have that. just need proper enforcement.

And get rid of the labels of sexual,racial, religious.

Just call them Human rights that covers every one.

D9: not sure about that one.

D10: the elected people will not allow thier ballot stuffing to go away.

D11:

Can i get a Hallelujah?

D12: Just need to make credit dept equal with the payment of said debts with your credit score.

Paying your bills on time should count as positives to your score since if your paying late it counts against you. Sounds fair Right?

D13: the days of the union are numbered.

Unfortunately when they dissappear we will need them again in a few years.

[Duke87 1,070]

Might as well make a thing of this...

Demand 1: putting tariffs on imported goods I can see some value in. But the minimum wage demand is out of touch with reality. Not everyone who's working is working for a living, folks! There are high school and college students who won't be able to get summer jobs with a policy like that because they simply aren't worth that much. Nor can you make an argument that they need it.

Demand 2: having a universal system might not be a bad idea on a state by state basis (note that Canada, which all the proponents of public healthcare love to point to, does it this way). Nationally it would make no sense whatsoever. As would banning private insurance (if one does not like the public system, one should not be forced to use it if one can afford something else).

Demand 3: yeah, that'll do wonders for unemployment. Because everyone is totally going to put effort into looking for a job when they're guaranteed to have everything covered without one.

Demand 4: Paid for... how? By taxing everyone's welfare checks?

Demand 5: this is something which is absolutely worth working on, but I do not find the level of work already being done on it generally unsatisfactory

Demand 6: while infrastructure is a problem for us, again... paid for how?

Demand 7: waste of money, and if we want to get off of fossil fuels (see demand 5), we need more nukes, not to get rid of them.

Demand 8: what, the 15th and 19th amendments don't count? Besides, this is well ingrained in law regardless of constitutional presence. I don't get what's being demanded that we don't already have, really.

Demand 9: I would love to see the border with Canada opened up Schengen-style. It just makes sense, really. The Mexican border on the other hand... too many problems on the other side with the drug gangs and all to just open it up. (although our immigration policies are draconian and do need some loosening)

Demand 10: sounds horribly inefficient and inaccurate. Computers don't make counting errors (intentional or unintentional), and can do the job much faster and cheaper.

Demand 11: pretty sure you can't just do that. We can declare the sky is green, that doesn't make it so.

Demand 12: why? Nobody is going to get loaned any money if the bank can't get a sense of how capable of paying it back they'll be.

Demand 13: so, basically, make the "right to work" policies a dozen or so states already have a national policy. (no employer can require nor forbid union membership as a condition of employment). I like this policy, but it's overstepping constitutional authority to do it nationally.

[hym 358]

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

People can talk about having a "living wage" all they want, but the only effect it will have is to throw more and more people out of work. It is estimated that for every $0.10 that the government raises the minimum wage, 100,000 teenagers are permanently removed from the workforce. The job shedding trends work out differently for adults earning minimum wage, but the general trend is the same. You cannot expect to raise minimum wage to $20/hr without expecting to see massive job shedding to rebalance the labor costs.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Lies, lies, and more lies. Even the stingiest of all major insurers pay at least 71% of collected premiums back on their policy holders. (The most generous pay back 79% approximately.) All of the major health insurers operate with an 11% overhead. The rest goes to profits or whatever else they want to spend money on. A 10% profit margin is not an unreasonable markup for any product. Medicare sure doesn't operate with an 11% overhead; anywhere from 10%-20% of Medicare's budget goes to scammers that the government can't be bothered to track down and prosecute. Looks to me like evil Big Insurance is probably spending more of your money on you than the federal government is.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

So not only are we going to drive up the welfare costs even more than they already are, we're going to give people even more incentive to never get off their butt and get a job. Good one.

Demand four: Free college education.

The major problem with affording higher education in America is all the deadbeat kids that we put in college because going to college is what you're "supposed" to do. These people aren't there to get an education; they are there to be in an adult version of daycare. They aren't contributing anything to society by being there. Rather, they are a parasite on the system, draining vital resources that could (and should) be focused on the people who are actually going to put something back into the system.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

I would be very interested in seeing how this one is supposed to work. There is no "fast tracking" this. Even if we more than tripled the number of engineers in the US, there would still be decades worth of work to be done. Then there is the literal millions upon millions of construction workers, electricians, welders and fabricators, painters, plumbers and pipe fitters, operators, and more who would practically need to rise forth from the dirt like a cursed army, fully trained and equipped for work, to even begin thinking about completing such an ambitious demand in such a short timeframe. Even with all of that, it is still highly doubtful such a demand could be met.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Won't deny the need for improvements here, but where is the money coming from again?

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

I've gone into the problems with this idea so many times that I won't both rehashing it all again. Just suffice it to say that nuclear power is here to stay until we find something more powerful, more economical, or some balance of the two. No one wants to give up all the stuff necessary to make a nuclear-free America possible.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

And so the entire system of borrowing and lending washes down the drain in a single idea, and with it, a huge portion of the driving force of the US economy. To make money one needs money, and sometimes that requires making an educated risk. There is absolutely no reason why a person shouldn't be able to borrow money if there exists reasonable proof that they will be able to carry the debt with minimal risk of default. I'm a perfect example of this. Traditional wisdom says that a college student shouldn't be taking out a several thousand dollar loan to pay for a car, especially if it is a first time car buyer, but the financial institution didn't have any problems with granting me the loan. Why? I make enough money to easily cover the monthly payment, plus throw $3,000 a month in additional payments against the principal to pay down the loan quickly. If you're the financial institution, you're looking at as close to a default-proof loan as you can ask for. If it weren't for the financial institution taking that risk, I would have been forced to settle for a significantly less serviceable car than the one I was able to acquire because someone was willing to take the risk. It's one thing to prevent people from taking on debt that they can't handle, but it's something entirely different to effectively wipe out lending and borrowing together. You're hurting everyone, especially those who are responsible with their debt.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

If you're going to wipe out all lending and borrowing like was effectively suggested above, then sure, no need for credit reporting agencies. However, that is an extremely foolish idea. So, if lending and borrowing is to remain, there needs to be a way to determine weed out the responsible borrowers from the irresponsible ones. That is the essential service of credit reporting agencies. You can't have credit without having agencies to track who is using it responsibly.

[sneakeypete 16]

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Won't deny the need for improvements here, but where is the money coming from again?

well....

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

OK, my turn.

1. Trade and trade tariffs is a two way street. If you want to return to the first quarter of the twentieth century you should also return to the conditions that existed then. $20 per hour is $40,000 per annum (gross). Many of the so-called wage-earners are not worth that. This kind of wage is earned by merit and experience. This would put many marginal businesses, such as grocery chains out of business. I'd rather take married women out of the work force. Either momma works or daddy does, but not both. Someone other than the state has to raise the kids.
2. Yes to this one. In Canada it is the Province aided and abetted by the Canada Health Act.
3. Tied to No. 1, and amounts to negative income tax.
4. Up to a baccalaureate, OK. After that, you either get a scholarship, a grant, or cough up the full cost of graduate work.
5. OK. Now, tell me where you are going to get something with as much energy to waste as chemical bonds.
6. I don't know the amount, but whatever it is, take it out of the military budget.
7. Ditto. Both of these would put America to work.
8. I find it hard to believe in a country as "free" as the U.S. such a thing is needed. I don't think the Declaration of Independence is racist nor unequal. "All men are created equal" was not meant to be a sexist comment nor should it be so interpreted. Our problem in Canada is equality and freedom from want for our First Nations peoples, who don't necessarily want it.
9. If you mean international borders, forget it. We essentially did it for a couple of centuries with you and all we got was brain drain. Now that you have slammed the door, I only want to pry it open a little. As for Mexico, that is a problem that is up to you. Your image as the "Golden Mountain" is your fault.
10. You don't go far enough here. The two entrenched parties need to be treated like trusts and busted. You need more choices than the party of sweetness and light and the party of light and sweetness.
11. Well there goes the world-wide money supply. Hang on to any specie you can accumulate because it will be the only thing of value provided it is made of either silver or gold.
12. Agreed. While you are at it, along with 11, disassemble international banking. Letters of credit redeemable for specie only.
13. Unions are currently irrelevant. They are part of the corporate structure and need to start over. All unions should be immediately decertified. A special per action tax should be imposed on any employer who fires anyone. Unions should be outlawed for at least five years before they are allowed to apply for existence again, and not a any kind of incorporated body.

And so, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. Let us think about what we are asking, we might get it.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

These demands are unreasonable.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

These demands are unreasonable.

Of course they are. Haven't you ever done any bargaining? The trick will be to eventually settle for something (much) less.

[Easy Bakes 253]

These demands are unreasonable.

Demand four: Free college education.

The major problem with affording higher education in America is all the deadbeat kids that we put in college because going to college is what you're "supposed" to do. These people aren't there to get an education; they are there to be in an adult version of daycare. They aren't contributing anything to society by being there. Rather, they are a parasite on the system, draining vital resources that could (and should) be focused on the people who are actually going to put something back into the system

There is currently a 25% drop out rate for freshmen.and 40% fail to get a degree in 6 years.

http://www.stateuniversity.com/blog/permalink/College-Drop-Out-Rates-Who-s-to-Blame-.html

Is a college degree worthless?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

These demands are unreasonable.

Demand four: Free college education.

The major problem with affording higher education in America is all the deadbeat kids that we put in college because going to college is what you're "supposed" to do. These people aren't there to get an education; they are there to be in an adult version of daycare. They aren't contributing anything to society by being there. Rather, they are a parasite on the system, draining vital resources that could (and should) be focused on the people who are actually going to put something back into the system

There is currently a 25% drop out rate for freshmen.and 40% fail to get a degree in 6 years.

http://www.stateuniv...-to-Blame-.html

Is a college degree worthless?

As a retired post-secondary professor, I have to agree with hym and EB's stats confirm it..

Too many students in colleges are just Luke-warm bodies who could care less about doing anything useful. We present them with a smörgåsbord of knowledge and opportunity and they waste it. Many are not qualified for college education because they have not really earned their high-school diplomas. The no child left behind doctrine, which protects children from even a breath or scintilla of failure and disappointment has created a couple of generations of layabouts who are unmotivated to do anything.

I have had students in my classes whose native language was English that couldn't even put together an intelligent sentence when speaking let alone write one down. The time has come again for tough admission rules and examinations to prove you are worthy of college entrance. Further, the primary and secondary curricula need to be fixed to emphasize streaming to separate the brighter sparks from the mediocre and the dullards. Not all men are born with equal intellectual capabilities. We need to stop wasting time and money on these people. Free college education for those who are worthy would be fine up to the baccalalureate level.

Here is some more grist for the mill.

  Edited October 5, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Universities are expensive in the United States but there are plenty of scholarships for qualified students if they look. Community Colleges let anyone in but many students fail classes there. If a student cannot get a degree from a Community College, that student has no business transferring to a university.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^ It is up to the universities to enforce strict admission requirements, and transferrees from colleges must be qualified by the university.

Meanwhile, CBC is reporting that the financial district protests have spread to L.A. and this is in the U.K. media.

[Duke87 1,070]

Humor break:

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Thank you! That is hilarious.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I am among the 1% of vicarious cookie consumers.

A brilliant parody.

But seriously, folks, it isn't the corporations that are the problem as much as the shady traders who dream up new ways to hoax the yokels. The two main blots in the copybook are derivatives and mutual funds.

Many pension funds that support widows and orphans depend on the operation of the stock and commodities markets because their funds are invested. If these funds were not invested in growth financials, the pensions could not be paid,

Let us think of ways to repair the system rather than tear it down.

Discussion?

[emperordaniel 1,281]

LOL Duke87

[Duke87 1,070]

Something else for thought.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Something else for thought.

thats a dang good question.

Someof those names of Hollow wood people make in the 100's of millions each year.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Somehow, I don't think this is a public relations exercise. I think it is a popular revolt that simply says we have had enough of our money being poured out on the altar of Mammon. I note that the movement is spreading world-wide in the "civilized" world.

What do these people want? A lot of things, but mainly they are sick of public money going to prop up organizations that should have gone to the wall. There is no such thing as too big to fail.

Keynesian economics has set up the governments to be the last resort of capitalism, but this is false. Governments are not rich. Governments produce nothing and have only what wealth they have by taking it from the people. So any bailout comes from the people, will-they, nil-they.

Right now we are all sitting on an incredible credit bubble that has been built on people's hopes and greed. The next pin that arrives will probably burst it, and return the world to reality. People of been living beyond their means since the late 1940s, and now we have a culture of debt. This cannot go on.

The idea that any financial outfit can grow without limit is nonsense. Eventually all the wealth of the world will be subsumed by this idea, and the resources of the world are limited because we have only this little planet to consume. Wealth is created by production, and we are becoming less productive over time so there is less wealth around to share among ever more of us. Maybe it is time to climb down a little lower on the hog.

Now let us pause for a moment and think about the automotive bail out. The spendthrifts at General Motors and Chrysler corporation didn't learn anything from being rescued by this gigantic loan from the people. They continued with business as usual with a few feints towards getting their houses in order. Did anyone in the upper echelon of either company get to carry the can for such lousy management? I don't believe so.

The people at Ford weathered whatever storm that was going on without needing outside funding. Does this say something about the management of that company? You're darned right it does.

If GM has gone into Chapter 11 and ultimately to bankruptcy and receivership many people would have been unemployed including the people in the board room and the executive offices, who should have been jailed. Would the economy of the North American auto producing countries have taken a major hit? You bet. This is what happens when you are stupid enough to put so many eggs in one basket. Too many take-overs and mergers allowed by the regulators over the years finally come home to roost. All that the automotive bail out accomplished was to delay the day of reckoning by a decade or so.

The bail out of the fiscal outfits in 2008 was just more of the same. People are starting to see the writing on the wall, and it reads 'mene mene, tekel. upharsin'. Except it won't be the Medes and Persians. It will be the peoples of the far east.