Sim City 4 Performance

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

You're not going to see home PCs with hundreds or thousands of identical cores. Most programs are much too serial in nature to take advantage of anywhere near that amount of parallelism, even in theory.

20 years ago, dual core processors were unheard of. 20 years ago, the ability to use multiple GPUs was unheard of. 20 years ago, the usage of GPUs to crunch massive calculations was unheard of.

20 years from now, someone is going to figure out how to fuse a GPU with a CPU.

Intel did this quite a few years ago. The results were unsatisfactory. My experience with 40 years in the computer business says that multiple units are the way to go. An independent unit that can be started with a pointer to its job is much better than an integrated one. What I see coming is a non-bus PC which has many connections, controlled by the memory controller as traffic cop, with as much cross-barring as needed. It is expensive right now, but that's because no one has bothered to re-engineer some of the classic mainframes that did this: Examples: CDC6600, GE635, HB9000 Series, IBM7000 Series. The later Vaxen by DEC had multiple buses. I am not sure about the PDP10, but since it acted like a main frame, I must have worked in a similar way.

The problem with integrated synchronous processors on a single bus it the limited bandwidth and the amount of traffic. With a memory oriented multiple demand asynchronous system, and with multiple memory controllers, you can really multi-task/mult-process at a phenomenal rate because the traffic on any one circuit is much less. Why do you think you have sophisticated disk controllers? The CPU is seriously off-loaded by not having to shepherd every little mechanical operation.

I could tell you why IBM dropped the 7000 series, but that's aother story.

[Loney 22]

I recall reading an article that talked about the development of a reprogrammable CPU that was also capable of storing memory, not just under a single package, but can readily convert a core into storage and back, allowing the processor to completely bypass the memory controller or at least reduce the usage of it. IBM is developing optical interconnects and there's also the network-on-chip interconnect development. Both would increase bandwidth and allow the memory controller to manage larger amount of cores with ease.

Multiple memory controllers would also help, but they would have to designed that they don't become uncoordinated, and the more components you put into a computer, the more expensive it becomes.

Plus, the more components you slap in, the more likely one of them will come out damaged. A core without a memory controller would be useless, though it can be compensated by wiring all of the cores and controllers together, but that would make them even more expensive.

Currently, I can see why a massively multi-core processor would falter. It would be starved of bandwidth even with a stupidly overclocked liquid-nitrogen cooled DDR4 memory.

EDIT: Here's a Sandy Bridge processor diagram:

I don't know what does IMC means, but I'm fairly sure it's the memory controller, and looks like it's the only one.

  Edited July 13, 2011 by Loney  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Yep. The International Brotherhood of Magicians has a restraining order standing against them that disallows them from using a multi-unit processor which is governed by a memory controller. You see, they lost a patent infringement case with Control Data Corporation many, many years ago. The order still stands. CDC sued them because the IBM7000 series used unlicensed CDC patents. And that's what happened to memory-oriented architectures.

GE, on the other hand, wasn't that dumb. They got a license from CDC, then built their 600 series, which, incarnated as a GE655 was the development machine for Project MAC's Multics (MIT). It was way before its time, and the hardware cost the earth, so it eventually died of an overdose of PC. However, it was one of the pioneering systems that helped kick off the Internet, and is the father and mother of both UNIX and Linux.

A side issue: Multics stands for Multiplexed Computer Service and Bell Labs was part of the consortium. When they pulled out, the people in their skunk works couldn't stand not having a slick time-sharing machine with a lot of power, so they developed UNIX (Eunuchs) which theoretically stands for Uniplexed Computer Service (X = cs). The people left on the Multics project have been known to refer to the UNIX's orchidectomy.

Those were high times, in the infancy of computing, when there was much more free-wheeling than there is in today's stilted scientific community.

  Edited July 13, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[Crom 1]

You should check this out:

 

 

It really worked for me.

[Fero85 1]

I love this game my computer runs Battlefield4s largest maps and it has a problem with this old game. I have tried everything first off its from steam so it is up to date, I tried software rendering , I tried to put it on 2 or 1 core. I tried windowd mode and shadows at low.. This is just messed up..I got so sick of Simcity2013s size and limited items so I came back to 4 but never played 4 on a new computer before to  see these problems. And im crashing in a city with LESS THAN 20k people I dont understand

 

 

 

I have an

I5 dual core 64 bit Wndows 7,

AMD Radeon HD7850 Direct CUII  2G  GDDR5  

100G SSD

2TB backupdriver where I have installed the game so it dosnt fall into C:programfiles86

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Your option selection following the complete pathname in your shortcut to start the game should look something like this:

 

 -intro:off -CustomResolution:enabled -r1920x1080x32 -d:directx  -CPUCount:1 -f

 

I have a 1080p monitor, yours may be different so you should change the resolution settings, otherwise this may be helpful.  You need a single space before the first option.  This turns off the EA movie, sets the game to accept resolutions other than 4:3, specifies the resolution and colour levels, forces hardware resolution, sets to one core, and specifies full screen.  For more options look here.

 

Because of some kind of garbage collection failure in the game, you should do an internal save (CTRL+s) every 15 minutes or so.  I tend to do one after I have built something with puzzle pieces or new water pipes that I'd rather not loose, or when the urge moves me.  The save seems to force the garbage collection.  I have played for several hours with a city over 900K Sims using this method.

 

Also, as long as you are not doing anything from the keyboard or mouse, the game will run on its own for hours.  It seems that disturbances are the key to crashes.

[Fero85 1]

Your option selection following the complete pathname in your shortcut to start the game should look something like this:

 

 -intro:off -CustomResolution:enabled -r1920x1080x32 -d:directx  -CPUCount:1 -f

 

I have a 1080p monitor, yours may be different so you should change the resolution settings, otherwise this may be helpful.  You need a single space before the first option.  This turns off the EA movie, sets the game to accept resolutions other than 4:3, specifies the resolution and colour levels, forces hardware resolution, sets to one core, and specifies full screen.  For more options look here.

 

Because of some kind of garbage collection failure in the game, you should do an internal save (CTRL+s) every 15 minutes or so.  I tend to do one after I have built something with puzzle pieces or new water pipes that I'd rather not loose, or when the urge moves me.  The save seems to force the garbage collection.  I have played for several hours with a city over 900K Sims using this method.

 

Also, as long as you are not doing anything from the keyboard or mouse, the game will run on its own for hours.  It seems that disturbances are the key to crashes.

 

 I dont know how to get to the options and i should also say I cant find Simcity4.exe on my computer it just runs from steam or SC4 launcher or the shortcut on my desktop however i did download it to my E drive and it is not there,only the game folders such as cache,Plugins and regions etc are there, not the .exe file and the shortcut on my desktop dosn't allow me see that option not sure how to get to it. and yes you sure are right about the puzzle pieces I don't dare try to make street rail anymore because every time i put 3 pieces of it down I crash. Even without that I was crashing but right now I have the SC4Launcher program set to run the game on 1 drive with high urgency and on hardware I also had to click force scrolling becasue half my builings used to disapear when I would scroll. on top of it all I have the launcher set to save every 15m  and I also ALT S  about every 15m. Although I crashed one time as I hit ALT S. This whole formula has been the best method for me so far I go with 4-5 hrs no crash with a bunch of addons. But It sucks That I cant make nice street rails  Also Im only at 114k residents now IT may get worst as It Grows 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

If you got your game from Steam, there is a game options location where you can put them.

[Indiana Joe 1,750]

AMD Radeon HD7850 Direct CUII  2G  GDDR5  

 

This one will cause a problem.  The game won't recognize a new AMD GPU like that; it'll cause instability, flickering, disappearing buildings.  Follow to fix that.

 

Although you said you couldn't find your SimCity root folder, which you need for that fix.  If it isn't under E:\Maxis\SimCity 4 Deluxe, where it should be based on what you have said, double check in C:\Program Files (x86)\Maxis\SimCity 4 Deluxe

 

Actually, I just thought of an easy way to find it.  Right click on the SC4 icon on your desktop --> Properties --> Click on "Open File Location"

[Fero85 1]

Ive seen that method and I tried it but I dont have the option on SC4 to open from file location maybe because its from steam but when i do go to the actuall path I have nothing called graphics options or most of the other things he has in the picture I only have the folders like cache and plugins etc.

[Drimmie 0]

I've been a member here since 2008 and this is my first post lol

 

I just ran into the typical performance issues as soon as my city hit 150k population tonight. I am so livid! Searched these forums and Google for hours, tried everything under the sun but my lag issues won't quit. I've had my retail version of SimCity 4 Deluxe since 2003 and only now have i ever run into issues on my two machines (Windows 7 and 8.1, both x64 architecture). Both have AMD Radeon graphics cards. 

 

This really sucks man, just venting. I may pick up SC5 from Origin since it's on Flash Sale. Just venting, sorry

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I've been a member here since 2008 and this is my first post lol

 

I just ran into the typical performance issues as soon as my city hit 150k population tonight. I am so livid! Searched these forums and Google for hours, tried everything under the sun but my lag issues won't quit. I've had my retail version of SimCity 4 Deluxe since 2003 and only now have i ever run into issues on my two machines (Windows 7 and 8.1, both x64 architecture). Both have AMD Radeon graphics cards. 

 

This really sucks man, just venting. I may pick up SC5 from Origin since it's on Flash Sale. Just venting, sorry

I suspect you didn't understand some of the palaver about lag and the simulation curve.  The game is a stochastic simulation as as such it has a performance curve dependent on the size of the universe of discourse, that is the number of objects being managed.  Every tree, building, lot, Sim, car, etc. are objects.

 

The performance curve, alas, is a hyperbola.  As you travel along the x-axis the response becomes longer and longer.  At some point you reach the 'knee' of the curve and the response time gets worse drastically.  You haven't said, but if you are running flat out, cheetah mode, you have now reached the point where your impatience has finally gotten its reward of infinite delay needing infinite patience.  You might consider throttling back to Rhino at least to give the simulation a chance to catch up.  If not, the game will just pause the screen rate until it can catch up anyway.

 

It is interesting that you start having trouble at 150K Sims.  I have an older machine, and I start getting trouble at 100K Sims.  However, one can persevere.  I have a very laggy city that I play regularly that has nearly 1,000K Sims.  In fact, I am pushing it to that.  It is a big region, all tiles have something in them, and the population is over 4 Million Sims, all profitable.

 

For you the best solution might be to go do something else leaving the game running after you have done something momentous.  Take an internal save (CTRL+s), then go away for a while after the save finishes.  Let the game chew on your changes while you do some housework or build something in your shop.  Maybe go for a walk.  It won't crash normally running by itself.  After you've refreshed, things will be different.

[Compdude787 916]

Because SimCity 4 can only use one core of the CPU, modern computers are running it with one hand tied behind their back. Also, it's only a 32-bit game, so you can never get really stellar performance with it on a 64-bit computer. It's almost as bad as trying to run a 32-bit OS on a 64-bit computer. The game gets slower the more stuff you have in one city; it's just what happens.

Since it's only a single-threaded game, it is best to have a CPU that is at least 3 GHz clock speed. It doesn't matter how many cores you have, since it makes no difference to the game's performance. In fact, the game will crash if it tries to use more than one core. Multicore CPUs weren't around in 2003, so the game wasn't capable of functioning properly on multiple cores. The only CPUs with multiple processors were in servers or other high-end business environments. Consumer-oriented 64-bit processors were in their infancy back then as well. A lot has changed with computers over the past decade, but SC4 has stayed the same.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

You can actually get it to run on two cores but you have to save about every five minutes to avoid the CTDs.  I've had it with two cores each running at 60%, but it is not worth the trouble.

 

It really isn't coded for multi-tasking as we know it today, and something usually fails in some critical section somewhere, but it is fun to experiment.

 

It is too bad we don't have the source for this game, but EA is holding it as a trade secret and probably always will.  It is still selling, even after all this time.  As games go, this one is Methuselah.

[Fero85 1]

I've been a member here since 2008 and this is my first post lol

 

I just ran into the typical performance issues as soon as my city hit 150k population tonight. I am so livid! Searched these forums and Google for hours, tried everything under the sun but my lag issues won't quit. I've had my retail version of SimCity 4 Deluxe since 2003 and only now have i ever run into issues on my two machines (Windows 7 and 8.1, both x64 architecture). Both have AMD Radeon graphics cards. 

 

This really sucks man, just venting. I may pick up SC5 from Origin since it's on Flash Sale. Just venting, sorry

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Man I stopped playing simcity2013 or simcity5 because its just tooooooooooo dam small , There is very few things you can fit in each city your constantly switching cities for every little thing. and don't get me started on the multiplayer side of it. regions of abandoned ghost cities that never go away and you cant claim. I mean the graphics are amazing and you can make it less cartoony from the options but I at least rant a city with 600k people in it. I Came back to SC4 because although I never played it enough to reach this level but I though I can go over a million easy with such a bigger area and now I see moose saying he has a city of only 100k sims and its lagging already? WOW thats odd, that worries me. my city is at 289k now. in SC4 Im still playing fine with that combination I posted earlier .....(For now)

 

[Compdude787 916]

I've been a member here since 2008 and this is my first post lol

 

I just ran into the typical performance issues as soon as my city hit 150k population tonight. I am so livid! Searched these forums and Google for hours, tried everything under the sun but my lag issues won't quit. I've had my retail version of SimCity 4 Deluxe since 2003 and only now have i ever run into issues on my two machines (Windows 7 and 8.1, both x64 architecture). Both have AMD Radeon graphics cards. 

 

This really sucks man, just venting. I may pick up SC5 from Origin since it's on Flash Sale. Just venting, sorry

 

 

Man I stopped playing simcity2013 or simcity5 because its just tooooooooooo dam small , There is very few things you can fit in each city your constantly switching cities for every little thing. and don't get me started on the multiplayer side of it. regions of abandoned ghost cities that never go away and you cant claim. I mean the graphics are amazing and you can make it less cartoony from the options but I at least rant a city with 600k people in it. I Came back to SC4 because although I never played it enough to reach this level but I though I can go over a million easy with such a bigger area and now I see moose saying he has a city of only 100k sims and its lagging already? WOW thats odd, that worries me. my city is at 289k now. in SC4 Im still playing fine with that combination I posted earlier .....(For now)

Some members have had cities that are so big that they either crash once opened or they just get to be so slow that they are unplayable. But this is often because they have a slower computer that can't handle it. Mind you that SC4 is still a really tasking game on your computer. It runs best when you have a 3 GHz processor or better, as I said before, especially if you want to build really large cities.

[Fero85 1]

ya mine is 3.10GH and 3.50GH but at what population is that at Compdude?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Remember that it isn't the number of Sims totally.  It is the number of objects, including god mode trees.  To conserve CPU cycles turn off clouds, waves and shadows.  These expensive features eat your CPU for very little return. 

 

My machine is about five years old now.  It is an AMD Athlon II X2 (dual core) running at default clock speed.  On query it say it is 3GHZ, but I think that is the top overclock speed.

 

Getting a legacy application like SC4 Deluxe to run at all takes tender, loving care on this machine, and later machines must be even hairier.  It is getting to be that you have to be an O/S technician to really make it happen, but since Windows 8 is really a jumped up version of Windows NT, there is no reason for it not to run.

 

One of these fine days, Microsoft is going to finally max out the NT model and have to get themselves a new kernel.  When they do, all is up for grabs.  If I was them, I'd give up on proprietary software and join the Linux revolution.  Gets rid of a lot of expensive maintenance.  It must cost them a lot to maintain all that bloatware.

[Compdude787 916]

You have computers with over 3 GHz processors and the game still runs slow? Wow, that's crazy.

 

Remember that it isn't the number of Sims totally.  It is the number of objects, including god mode trees.  To conserve CPU cycles turn off clouds, waves and shadows.  These expensive features eat your CPU for very little return. 

Yeah, you're right; population doesn't matter so much. If you have more stuff in your city the game really slows down. HD props really take a toll on your computer's performance. Having shadows on really slows down the game more than anything else. The only time I turn them on is to take screenshots; otherwise the frame rate gets really slow. (Don't turn the City Detail down from High; it doesn't really affect performance and you'll just get a bunch of missing props.)

 

Also, whenever I play a computer game, I always close out of other programs. If you have multiple user accounts open, you may want to log out of those as well, especially if other people that use your computer have programs open (even if they're just web browsers or things like Word or Outlook, they can still affect the computer's performance).

 

Have you tried editing the target command line for SimCity 4 to set the CPU priority to High? That way, you can make the game be what the CPU focuses on more than anything else. I know how to do this if you run the game off the CD, but if you don't run it off the CD and instead from Steam, I don't know how to change the target command line.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Setting the game into high priority might work as long as you don't go as high as 'real time'.  This is fatal and you may lose control of your machine altogether.  However, if you are using the -CPUCount:1 option, and nothing else is running you don't need to bother with that.

 

For me, it is a matter of using the nice command as part of my script.  I haven't found it to be of any advantage because most of my system services are sleeping on timers and may even be swapped out.  All these services run in the second processor anyway since one processor is pre-empted by the option.

[Fero85 1]

No i dont lag I crashed alot before I started ALt S every 15m and set the game to 1 driver I still will if I try to mess with Puzzle pieces like street rail. I know nothing about codes I cant even get to the count option unless I reinstall and its where i Put the path location but SC4  is being strange i cant even open file location its not in the options when I right click or in the Steam options when I right click on the game in the library  The way I get it to run on one drive is with the Launcher mod and set affinity to 0 from task manager every time and even with my comp it says high cpu usage from SC4 sometimes (this is scary I have a nice gaming tower that i don't want to damage).  God Why wont Maxis just upgrade this game to run with new computers , I mean (Your not gonna force us back into SC2013)

[Compdude787 916]

I know nothing about codes I cant even get to the count option unless I reinstall and its where i Put the path location but SC4  is being strange i cant even open file location its not in the options when I right click or in the Steam options when I right click on the game in the library...

Okay, so you bought SC4 off Steam? To edit the target command line, here's what to do: (I don't have SC4 on Steam, but I do have another game on there and it should be pretty much the same)

1. Open up Steam and click the "Library" button to see all the games you have on Steam.

2. On the left-hand side, you'll see a listing of all the games you have on Steam. Right click on SimCity 4 Deluxe and select Properties.

3. In the dialog box that appears, you should be in the "General" tab. Click on "Set Launch Options" and find a text field called something like Target. There you should be able to enter in the target command line options like -CPUCount:1 and -CPUPriority:High.

 

The way I get it to run on one drive is with the Launcher mod and set affinity to 0 from task manager every time and even with my comp it says high cpu usage from SC4 sometimes (this is scary I have a nice gaming tower that i don't want to damage).

Having high usage on your CPU shouldn't really cause any damage as long as you don't get the temperature too high. If you're worried about this, download a program that monitors your CPU temp (there's plenty of freeware for this) and have it open on another monitor while you play SC4 and keep an eye on the temperature. Generally, anything above 65-70^oC is not healthy over the long run and can damage your CPU. Since you have a gaming computer, I'd expect that it has a fairly decent cooling system, but if you do find that you're getting those high temps, seriously consider doing some upgrades to your cooling system to prevent further damage to your CPU.

 

To find the maximum operating temperature, you need to find the exact model of your CPU by going into your computer info (just saying Core i5 isn't good enough--they come out with new architectures every year but keep the same "Core i3/i5/i7" branding). I have a Core i5-3317U CPU on my laptop, and the max. operating temperature for it is 105 degrees C, according to the specs on Intel's website. Now this is too high for me to believe, so I'd say that I'd NEVER, ever want to get above 70 degrees considering that it's a laptop w/ terrible cooling. I'm pretty sure the 105-degree figure is the temperature at which your CPU will go up in smoke. Even lower temps will cause damage to your CPU and could seriously cut its life short.

[Fero85 1]

Thanks, I see what your talking about where to put the command line I will put it in if I have crash problems in the future as my city grows and every tile gets filled for now I am ok and really just don't want to mess with it.   I have only one monitor so I cant check the heat issue like you said but It only says that once or twice every 5 hrs so it shouldn't be that big a problem? 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

You need to do an internal save (CTRL+s) more frequently than that, or you will have crashes.

[Fero85 1]

More frequent than what Moose I Ctr S every15m  What I was saying is that I see the high cpu usage msg every 4-5 hrs or so

Im sure if I didnt do an internal Save every 15m i would have alot more problems.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I have the advantage of being able to run multiple desktops so I can run a general system monitor if I wish.  Sysmon run at various times always shows one processor well above 90%, often at 100% with SC4 as the current process.  I should think this would be a serious problem for a slim case machine that doesn't have enough air in the case to help dissipate the heat.  You might consider an additional lap-top cooler.