Game Difficulty Level

[Tilarium 0]

Here's what I don't get and caused me to uninstall the game.... I start in a patch of land that, according to the brief description, has good fertility. I'm strange, a common tactic of mine in SCIV was to start with farm cities that blend into the real cities outside. I tried that with this game, I go to place a farm.... yup, no land suitable for farming even though there was supposed to be 80% percent fertility. I did the tutorial but that didn't explain anything to me about this. Another thing was that I couldn't make a connection into the neighbor cities.... sure, none existed, but should that keep me from connecting the first city to the outside world? And for the record, I'm playing single player.... so why do I need to log in and let it connect to the net? Bah, another stupid thing that caused me to say nope.

[jeremy12 0]

Originally posted by: Tilarium

Here's what I don't get and caused me to uninstall the game.... I start in a patch of land that, according to the brief description, has good fertility. I'm strange, a common tactic of mine in SCIV was to start with farm cities that blend into the real cities outside. I tried that with this game, I go to place a farm.... yup, no land suitable for farming even though there was supposed to be 80% percent fertility. I did the tutorial but that didn't explain anything to me about this. Another thing was that I couldn't make a connection into the neighbor cities.... sure, none existed, but should that keep me from connecting the first city to the outside world? And for the record, I'm playing single player.... so why do I need to log in and let it connect to the net? Bah, another stupid thing that caused me to say nope.quote>

did you turn on the filter to see Fertile land? it may say 80% but this is not sim city you cannot place farms anywhere they want to be placed on land where the conditions are good for a farm, also you can launch the game without loging in

>>

https://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=370&threadid=110734&enterthread=y

[rhenry 1]

I've noticed for a long time in the game when you click on a service it will tell you what it needs, like hotels or fuel or whathave you, but then after a while it stops telling you and only shows you it's lacking in profit. Everything else is green but it's still going bankrupt.

[jeremy12 0]

Originally posted by: rhenry

I've noticed for a long time in the game when you click on a service it will tell you what it needs, like hotels or fuel or whathave you, but then after a while it stops telling you and only shows you it's lacking in profit. Everything else is green but it's still going bankrupt.

quote>

check your trading window see if you need more of a kind of goods or if you have to many of that good (if its a office see if you have 5 office tiles to trade)

[Tilarium 0]

See, the tutorials say NOTHING about having a filter to show farmable land. In the brief section of the industry tutorial which covered farming all it said was to find a spot suitable for farming... nothing about needing a filter on.

[Androv 6]

If you click on the farm tool, it will highlight the areas to build on. I agree that if you don't have any arable land then the option to build farms should be disabled.

[knightrider 0]

Originally posted by: Kredit

Thing is, you're not "the government", you're not even  "the mayor" (even if it's what you're called in-game), you're a lot of things rolled in to one. Mayor, developer, trade unionist, architect, etc. etc.

This is not supposed to be SimMayor or SimGovernment It's about "building" a city in a way that's both challenging and enjoyable. Not about defining the tasks a mayor should or should not do. Bottom line: Gameplay ALWAYS trumps realism. Always.

Most of the rest of your gripes seem to be details and finetuning. Yes, the amount of retail needed is a bit low, I agree. They'll probably tweek that at some point. However, why that specific shop went broke? Dunno... polution? traffic? wrong kind of shop (discount store in Elite area)? That's what makes CXL interesting. It's not just "I need 10 of those for 5 of those and then I can build 2 of those again".

quote>

I agree that when there is a conflict between gameplay and realism, gameplay should win. Good gameplay would mean that when I perform an action, the game responds in a way that is consistent with what you would see in the real world.  The game is not based on any sort of real economics and instead follows arbitrary rules like a board game.  Even video games that are based in fantasy have some root in reality.  Not every game has a realistic physics engine, but when there is a task in a game that requires you to stack blocks or jump across a gap, and the physics of the game are so totally off that you have a hard time controlling it, pretty soon you are taken out of the fun.  If enough of the game is compromised, you might just quit playing all together.

Similarly, CXL takes control away from you in some areas while also giving you responsibilities that shouldn't be yours.  I can agree the argument that you are more than a mayor.  Urban planner, engineer, architect... I can see all that.  Hotel owner?  How does that fit in? Bowling alley proprietor?  What?  If the city owns these businesses, which are businesses just like any other, then why doesn't the city own all businesses?  Every game has a background story, even if it is a subtle one.  Who am I supposed to be?  If I am not "the government" then why do I have control of taxes?  Am I god?  If so, why can't I terraform or build a farm wherever I want?

It's clear most of these "gameplay" choices were not really made for the sake of gameplay, they were either made for the sake of the little trade window, or to make up for shortcomings in the game's simulation.

[Androv 6]

Well, I think I'm the 'mayor' of the city. My city provides certain entertainment services, such as ferris wheels, stadiums, museums, etc. These cost the city money to run. Sure, a socialised bowling alley is a bit far fetched... but a lot of the services are quite reasonable.

I designate an area as 'hotel' and therefore a hotel builds there, don't see the problem with that. I designate an area as 'high quality housing' and executives move in.

They definitely have a better system for looking at the population than the City Life series, and it makes a lot of sense to me. Unqualified workers - people who left school and didn't go to university. Qualified workers - went to uni, have a degree. Executives - went to uni and got a useful degree Elites - have inherited money / earned a lot of money and run the world.

I'm definitely not a god, as I can't alter the terrain to my every whim, but I can flatten it. I can't make crops grow in non-fertile areas. I can't dig oil up if there's no oil there.

I'm not in control of all taxes, I'm in control of rates That's why it's on 15% of income, not 40-50 %

I find a lot of the simulation more realistic than SC4 And definitely easier to follow.

[Kredit 0]

Originally posted by: knightrider

Originally posted by: Kredit

Thing is, you're not "the government", you're not even  "the mayor" (even if it's what you're called in-game), you're a lot of things rolled in to one. Mayor, developer, trade unionist, architect, etc. etc.

This is not supposed to be SimMayor or SimGovernment It's about "building" a city in a way that's both challenging and enjoyable. Not about defining the tasks a mayor should or should not do. Bottom line: Gameplay ALWAYS trumps realism. Always.

Most of the rest of your gripes seem to be details and finetuning. Yes, the amount of retail needed is a bit low, I agree. They'll probably tweek that at some point. However, why that specific shop went broke? Dunno... polution? traffic? wrong kind of shop (discount store in Elite area)? That's what makes CXL interesting. It's not just "I need 10 of those for 5 of those and then I can build 2 of those again".

quote>

I agree that when there is a conflict between gameplay and realism, gameplay should win. Good gameplay would mean that when I perform an action, the game responds in a way that is consistent with what you would see in the real world.  The game is not based on any sort of real economics and instead follows arbitrary rules like a board game.  Even video games that are based in fantasy have some root in reality.  Not every game has a realistic physics engine, but when there is a task in a game that requires you to stack blocks or jump across a gap, and the physics of the game are so totally off that you have a hard time controlling it, pretty soon you are taken out of the fun.  If enough of the game is compromised, you might just quit playing all together.

Similarly, CXL takes control away from you in some areas while also giving you responsibilities that shouldn't be yours.  I can agree the argument that you are more than a mayor.  Urban planner, engineer, architect... I can see all that.  Hotel owner?  How does that fit in? Bowling alley proprietor?  What?  If the city owns these businesses, which are businesses just like any other, then why doesn't the city own all businesses?  Every game has a background story, even if it is a subtle one.  Who am I supposed to be?  If I am not "the government" then why do I have control of taxes?  Am I god?  If so, why can't I terraform or build a farm wherever I want?

It's clear most of these "gameplay" choices were not really made for the sake of gameplay, they were either made for the sake of the little trade window, or to make up for shortcomings in the game's simulation.

quote>

Good points. It is a bit unclear which role exactly we perform. I don't think we're hotel owner, rather I see us as laying out development plans for the city. This is what happens in real cities as well. The city decides where they want new businesses to start etc., an entrepeneur will apply for a license to open a certain business.

In the hotel example, I ("the city") decide that it would be good to have some more business hotels. So I assign a certain area and encourage developers and investers to open a hotel there. Same with housing. Most housing won't be built by the city, but the city decides what type of house goes where.

Most important point, I think, is that the discussion should be about whether or not something makes for good gameplay, not whether or not it's completely "realistic". In regards to the "background story", I'd say that as far as that's concerned you are considered the "mayor", but a game where all you do is sit in meetings, read report after report after report, cut a ribbon now and then and shake hands with the queen/president on special occasions would not be much fun I think.

It's the same as the "is it an mmo" discussion: It doesn't matter. "Is it good?" is what matters.

[DazzaDazza 29]

you are kinder right, the cities government as the final say on where hotels can or cant go,   but ultimately the people will decide where thing will go and the government just goes with the larger public opinion, if there is a huge out cry over a certain thing most likely it will not happen, if you have a look around the city you live in you will find hotels all though out your city not just in one particular area, as for being good fore game play    don’t think so ether, why because if we are building on the same map ultimately  our cities will end up looking the same with only miner differences , because the game is always telling me what to do and where to put thing, and this is one of the major reasons I like creative game, and why I like SC, 

 

I also hope the fix retail because for some reason It bugs me a lot  

Most important point, I think, is that the discussion should be about whether or not something makes for good gameplay, not whether or not it's completely "realistic".

your are right we should but in the end of the day we are making something that looks and feels realistic, we are not making a fantasy cities,   this is why I cant understand why they chooses so many unrealistic thing in the game and it is probably why there is so much criticism directed MC way.    

[SimBurger 0]

Hmm .... okay

1) I know video games are supposed to be challenging. Im not talking about that. Most games can be challenging without making the user stare at the screen completely unaware what they're supposed to do. That's a useability issue. There is an aspect of this game which is at its very core (trading) that is absolutely not straight forward in useability. That trading screen is like looking at hyrogliphics when you first see it. Given that you can't play the game without mastering it, I wondered if the average user would view said hyrogliphics and throw their hands in the air. That's all.

2) No. Its not common sense what is meant by "trading office services" Now that you explain it, it makes sense. But trading office services with a city 5 miles away is not the same as outsourcing to India. I just personally don't have any experience or knowledge of real life examples where Toledo Ohio trades office services with Akron Ohio. So it was confusing for me. But I truly do appreciate the monstrous sarcastic poster. Maynards Band.....

3) SimCity 4 wasn't as easy as dropping zones and suddenly having a ton of cash. There are tricks and challenges to making a city succeed. Although the useability was sufficient enough that one could figure out what all the elements mean, and how to operate them. I didn't feel that sense of useability in the trading.

This isn't a complaining thread. I love this game. I actually think im probably just a little bit lazy and/or retarded, because most of you guys have no issues with the useability of the Trading feature. I just know that my level of effort is above average, and Im tempted to not bother reading the vast tutorials required to understand trading. I wonder if the *average* user will simply not bother.

-SB-

[Kredit 0]

1) I understand what you mean, I don't agree though. But that's subjective I guess. To me, the UI for this game is very intuitive, and I was able to grasp all the different screesn, stats and options by the time my first city reached a few hundred K pop, without doing the tutorials... To others it might not be. What surprises me here is that by the sound of it, you are a much more experienced "city builder" then I am, so if anything I would've expected that I would be having problems getting into it, instead of you. But perhaps it is harder for you because you are so used to SC's controls and UI... which would mean that this game isn't actually to hard for the average user, but rather for the non-average user

2) Again, this is very much about personal interpretation and background knowledge. I'm a customer service manager, I "buy" office services on a daily basis. I hire temps for special/last minute tasks, we work with external callcentres for our telemarketing activities, a lot of our data-entry is done by an external company, all our shipping is done by another company, our marketing department hire advertisement agencies, etc. etc. etc. So to me, selling "office services" made perfect sense. Would I have understood this 15 years ago, when I had no work experience apart from some holiday jobs? Well actually I think I would've, but I'm not sure. I think that regardles, I would have seen it as a resource you can apparently trade, who cares how it works but that all depends on how you look at the game I guess.

3) I've not played SC4, so I can't compare. All I can do is judge this game on it's own merits. And so far, I think it's good.

It seems that the trading feature really doesn't agree with you... which surprises me because you come across as an intelligent enough person. And it's really not very complex. In "Market Place", you have a row of icons showing all your resources. If you have some spare, or just enough, they're blue, if you're short, they're orange. If you click on one, you get an overview showing you Sell and Buy offers. If you can afford to take an offer, a green button appears next to it. Click it to take that offer.

If you don't see an offer you want, you can create one, either Sell or Buy by checking the appropriate box, fill in the number you want to sell or buy, and the amount you want to sell or buy this for... et voila!

So what you do is sell anything you have an excess of, and buy what you're short on. And there you go, a trading city!

[Mathew_MC 0]

Thank you for your feedback on your first trading experience and the level of information/help provided ingame on this aspect, Simburger.

Though we'll agree it is not the same as ingame information, there are two external resources that can help get the hang on the trading system:

- Planet manual

- Trading FAQ

[Kredit 0]

Originally posted by: mrdazza_460

you are kinder right, the cities government as the final say on where hotels can or cant go,   but ultimately the people will decide where thing will go and the government just goes with the larger public opinion, if there is a huge out cry over a certain thing most likely it will not happen, if you have a look around the city you live in you will find hotels all though out your city not just in one particular area, as for being good fore game play    don’t think so ether, why because if we are building on the same map ultimately  our cities will end up looking the same with only miner differences , because the game is always telling me what to do and where to put thing, and this is one of the major reasons I like creative game, and why I like SC, 

 

I also hope the fix retail because for some reason It bugs me a lot  

Most important point, I think, is that the discussion should be about whether or not something makes for good gameplay, not whether or not it's completely "realistic".

your are right we should but in the end of the day we are making something that looks and feels realistic, we are not making a fantasy cities,   this is why I cant understand why they chooses so many unrealistic thing in the game and it is probably why there is so much criticism directed MC way.    

quote>

I guess it's down to what you'd consider "realistic"... to me, the cities seem realistic enough. Yes, the "public" could stop certain plans. They can in CXL as well... If I put something in the wrong place, it won't even be built. Basically that's the people telling you  "screw you, that's a bad idea"

And yes, hotels are all over the city... as they are in my CXL cities as well. Putting them all in one place would make them fail horribly. What you won't see in either my CXL cities or real cities, is a hotel in an area that's meant for housing. I can't buy a plot of land which is assigned as residential and start a business there... Or even buy an existing office building and just live in it.... It's meant to be a business.

Yes, the trading system is  a somewhat arbitrary system, but it serves a purpose. It "forces" interaction with other players by creating interdependency. And, it allows for "dynamic specialisation", i.e. if everyone on the planet decides to create holiday resorts, holdays become cheap and other resources will be more expensive, making it interesting to create a city without tourism, but with other, less common, resources. It could be better and it needs to be expanded, but it works.

However, I see a lot of people complaining about how the game "forces" you to do certain things, limiting the freedom to build the city of your dreams... but the only things the game's forced me to do is not do stupid things.

Sure, I can decide that I dream of a city with only High density Elites,  High Tech and Tourism... oh and I'll only use small farm roads, because I think that's pretty... this city will fail. Which I think is quite realistic

Yes, shipping water halfway around the globe is unrealistic (though you probably shouldn't take it that literally), but what would the alternative be? Only trade water with neighbouring cities? Way to complex and limiting... Not trade water at all? That's simply removing part of the game and dumbing it down... Sure, a system that is more realistic and still works in the game might be found...  but is it really such a big deal? Is it worth changing a basically simple trading system that works, just so it's that bit more reallistic? And if it is, then where to draw the line? 

Is it realistic that you can just demolish whole neighbourhoods? We've had a few incidents of that type here in The Hague in the last decade... it's years of legal procedures, people refusing to move out, etc. etc.... So I propose that "bulldozing" a residential area has a chance to fail, not allowing you to bulldoze it, or it can cost up to 10x the normal price, due to unforeseen legal problems... or it can succeed, but then the company that sets up their gets boycotted and harrassed so it goes bankrupt...

Yes, this is an extreme example. But that's the problem with saying things have to be "reallistic"... realism is neither simple nor convenient

[zwr100 2]

I think difficulty of trading will be one aspect of 'balance' (seasoned MMO players know what I'm referring to) will be in this game.  There is some correlation between difficulty of making a self sufficient city and the difficulty of effective trading.  The fact that you can get started very easily but things get harder as you go is basic game design isn't it?  Trading is one thing radically different from past city builders so the learning curve might be a little unexpected for seasoned builders?

and

Originally posted by: Androv

Well the world chat is very similar to 'Barrens Chat'.... but instead of "Where's Mankrik's wife" it's "How do I trade for xxxx"quote>

QFT

[DazzaDazza 29]

And yes, hotels are all over the city... as they are in my

CXL

 cities as well. Putting them all in one place would make them fail horribly. What you won't see in either my

CXL

cities or real cities, is a hotel in an area that's meant for housing. I can't buy a plot of land which is assigned as residential and start a business there... Or even buy an existing office building and just live in it.... It's meant to be a business.

 

That is not true you can, as long as you go though the proper channels there is nothing stoping you, this happens on a regular bases, especially when land is becoming harder to find in inner-city, developers love to make multipurpose buildings to maximize there profits, large shopping centres and other large retail companies  are constantly trying to buy up the land/ houses  if there is a profit to be made I can bet my money a pesky zoning law wont stop it, developers are like Piranhas , ounces you let one in the all come and before you no it you are living on the gold cost, and nobody wont to live there(well not me anyway)

 

Maybe our are right maybe I am just nit-piking, and ultimately I will just have to put up with it and I do understand that is good for game play,   

 

Well when it comes to upgrading roads, I do find it unrealistic to demolish whole streets, but that is a design problem with the game that you have to do that, so that really cant be changed, although a quick fix you we to have 2 sets of every street one with normal sidewalks and the other with large to cater to upgrading    

 

Well I better get back on topic or the power to be will closes the thread. the game is not that hard to play in general, though the game is very reactive, one minute you are going grate guns and the next your ruing a huge loss and you haven’t done anything.

  

[Kredit 0]

Originally posted by: mrdazza_460

And yes, hotels are all over the city... as they are in my

CXL

 cities as well. Putting them all in one place would make them fail horribly. What you won't see in either my

CXL

cities or real cities, is a hotel in an area that's meant for housing. I can't buy a plot of land which is assigned as residential and start a business there... Or even buy an existing office building and just live in it.... It's meant to be a business.

 

That is not true you can, as long as you go though the proper channels there is nothing stoping you, this happens on a regular bases, especially when land is becoming harder to find in inner-city, developers love to make multipurpose buildings to maximize there profits, large shopping centres and other large retail companies  are constantly trying to buy up the land/ houses  if there is a profit to be made I can bet my money a pesky zoning law wont stop it, developers are like Piranhas , ounces you let one in the all come and before you no it you are living on the gold cost, and nobody wont to live there(well not me anyway)

 

Maybe our are right maybe I am just nit-piking, and ultimately I will just have to put up with it and I do understand that is good for game play,   

 

Well when it comes to upgrading roads, I do find it unrealistic to demolish whole streets, but that is a design problem with the game that you have to do that, so that really cant be changed, although a quick fix you we to have 2 sets of every street one with normal sidewalks and the other with large to cater to upgrading    

 

Well I better get back on topic or the power to be will closes the thread. the game is not that hard to play in general, though the game is very reactive, one minute you are going grate guns and the next your ruing a huge loss and you haven’t done anything.

  

quote>

The zoning laws you mention are exactly why you can't just build/start a hotel anywhere. Of course, you can try to get the city to change the laws, which is what developers do all the time. In-game, if your offices complain about lack of hotels, but there's no area you've assigned to hotels, developers can't build them. So they whine to you (through the game's messages), and you cave in and allow them to build a hotel close to the offices.

Upgrading roads by first destroying them is actually quite realistic (it's what they do in the real world in most cases, unless they're just adding a lane or two...), but I think it would be good to have an "upgrade" option that adds lanes or destroys the piece of road and then replaces it. Mostly for gameplay reasons though

And on that, I completely agree! It's not a difficult game to play, but playing well can be a real challenge

[DazzaDazza 29]

Yes a upgrade function would be good, normally if there are contested roads around cities they do rip up the roads as such, as you pointed out they just keep adding lanes and encroach on to the nature stripes, when they run out of that room they just lave the roads alones and build alternate rotes, e.g. freeways, so in a sense CXL has it right if only you could add more lands with out having to bulldozes the half the city, witch mine you I don't have a problem doing that, my problem is after I do it because you can't put any buildings back there because you lots only come in the one boring size 40x40,

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]