A fun game, good ideas, but heavily impaired.

[jap88 0]

I'll skip the "how much I love Sim City 4" bit and get right to it here.  This is long, so be ready.

CXL is a fun game if you can manage to get into it, but ther are some pretty major design flaws, especially when it comes to single player.  (And lets be honest, who's going to pay per month for a city builder?).

CXL is a game designed around trade.  Unfortunately, that is almost impossible in single player.  Our loving madoff gives us only 2500 for a token while asking for 10000 in return.  By design of the game, you cannot support your city without trade anyway.  The maps are made in a way that it is impossible to be self-sufficient.  At a rate of  4 to 1, trade becomes near impossible.

To add to that, since when are cities responsible for importing the goods used by PRIVATE businesses?  Why do I need to pay for fuel when it's used by a company for profit?  Why must I have upkeep on an oil field?  It should be privately owned, if not, I should at least be selling the fuel, not giving it away for free to local businesses.  Same thing goes for leisure here.  In fact, this is an idea that really makes no sense. 

Since when are cities responsilbe for maintaining bowling alleys?  Some things I understand, like basketball/tennis courts and museums.  But a rotating restaurant on top of a tower?  Come on.  Also, when did it become more than one and a half times as expensive to maintain a tennis court than a school?

The percentages instead of hard numbers are annoying as well.  The percentage relative to how much you need changes constantly.  When it says 5% unemployment for unqualified, I don't know how much industry I need to make to employ them.  If they gave me hard numbersmthen at least I'd have an idea how much to zone.  Wait, no I wouldn't.  The industires only say they employ "few," "some," or "many" of a specific class of people.  Really helpful.

It also is unclear to what range different city services are effective and who is benefitting from them.  I have a homes for qualified workers right next to both an elementary school and high school, yet  have low education satisfaction.  The only information I get is that the efficiency is 'high.'  Placing public services then becomes a guessing game.  It seems near impossible to satisfy these people.  Why do people want more shops when the ones I have too many already and are being forced out of business?  (Or on the other hand, why are farms going bankrupt when there is vast undersupply of that good?)  It's not as if I put 20 of them next to each other, I spread them out to make sure they are as effective as possible.

You'll find most of the game is spent trying to get your budget to balance.  Early on is no problem, but as soon as you start to run out of fuel, water, or fertile land, you're completely screwed.  Unless you try to satisfy leisure needs.  Then you're screwed long before that.  The ability to manage a budget is completely based on the already-flawed concept of trade that the game implements that only really works with the PO anyway.

Mass transit.  Need I say more?  I will though.  I'm at a developing city of 100,000 residents right now (I abandoned my 300,000 one after I realized there wasn't a chance I'd be able to trade for fuel).  I'm already having issues with congested roads.  There is only so much you can do, unless you feel like deleting tons of public buildings and residences to make roads larger.  Once you start doing that though, the zones become incredibly tiny, and near worthless.  This is one of the main reasons mass transit exists in the first place, so the government doesn't have to use eminent domain to build up a bigger road.

The zoning also has a few issues.  It's fun (I really do like the free-zone tool).  However, there is this thing with the square zone tool where the zone mysteriously becomes ever so slightly smaller until, all of a sudden, the zone can only fit 4 lots instead of 6.  Why is the zone curving?  It's supposed to be a rectangle.  Our inability to rezone is also burdensome.  Instead we have to go through each zone we want to upgrade, delete all the current buildings, and then put new lots in for a different density.

Despite all of these issues, it is still possible to have fun with the game to a point.  My personal biggest issue is managing cash flow.  There are too many expenses and too few sources of income.  The residential zones, and corresponding industrial zones, don't bring in enough cash to maintain all the services required for that area of the city and that industrial section's share of resources (electricity, waste, water, etc.)  I'll still be playing for a while, but I think CXL will soon be shelved until some of the issues are resolved.

[deanco 0]

Excellent critique. It mirrors my impressions of the game, including "it is still possible to have fun with the game to a point".

I'm guessing that trade in single player was "balanced" (and I use that term very loosely) to push people to subscribe to the Planet Offer. Note that even OmniCorp has better prices once you're online, compared to single player.

And speaking of cynical, note that OmniCorp's president is named Don Madalff. That last name ring a bell? How about Bernie Madoff, currently serving 150 years in prison for bilking investors out of millions of dollars via an illegal ponzi scheme? And here, we have a scheme to milk thousands of tiny investors for monthly fees so players can trade for reasonable prices and use public transport.

It's either some sort of sick joke, or a huge middle finger aimed at anyone who buys the game. Or maybe the name was suggested by the investors behind the game, as some sort of cynical inside joke.

[6033252485 0]

I agree! Although, it also makes me realize why EA didn't reissue an SC5. I mean SC4 was released 6 years ago and has approximately 25 gigs of free addons that folks have developed that there is no way to compete against. Cities XL is a great game and I've enjoyed playing but it just can't compare to the individualism that SC4 provides. If EA would just reissue SC4 with some improved game graphics and include a set of say 5 CDs with a multitude of game addons/mods with a way to easily organize the data then I would be in heaven...until then SC4 with my massive unorganized plugins folder and CitiesXL will just have to do. Oh well, I'll I can say is that Monte has done a better job than EA with this next version of city building games.

[TheJackalope 0]

Originally posted by: jap88

CXL is a game designed around trade.  Unfortunately, that is almost impossible in single player.  Our loving madoff gives us only 2500 for a token while asking for 10000 in return.  By design of the game, you cannot support your city without trade anyway.  The maps are made in a way that it is impossible to be self-sufficient.  At a rate of  4 to 1, trade becomes near impossible.quote>

I'll give you this one.

Originally posted by: jap88 To add to that, since when are cities responsible for importing the goods used by PRIVATE businesses?  Why do I need to pay for fuel when it's used by a company for profit?  Why must I have upkeep on an oil field?  It should be privately owned, if not, I should at least be selling the fuel, not giving it away for free to local businesses.  Same thing goes for leisure here.  In fact, this is an idea that really makes no sense.  quote>

Plenty of cities also don't maintain or build schools, hospitals, layout subdivisions, build highways, water lines, garbage service, ports,  decide when an area is open for development.  Playing such a game would be boring as hell though.  My city owns natural gas wells on it's property and uses them for the gas department, it doesn't do half the stuff I metioned above though.

Originally posted by: jap88Since when are cities responsilbe for maintaining bowling alleys?  Some things I understand, like basketball/tennis courts and museums.  But a rotating restaurant on top of a tower?  Come on.  Also, when did it become more than one and a half times as expensive to maintain a tennis court than a school?quote>

A rotating restauraunt on a tower was built by the city of San Antonio for Hemisphare, which while being a financial boondogle is considered to be the seminal moment in San Antonios modern history where the community galvanized together.

Originally posted by: jap88The percentages instead of hard numbers are annoying as well.  The percentage relative to how much you need changes constantly.  When it says 5% unemployment for unqualified, I don't know how much industry I need to make to employ them.  If they gave me hard numbersmthen at least I'd have an idea how much to zone.  Wait, no I wouldn't.  The industires only say they employ "few," "some," or "many" of a specific class of people.  Really helpful.quote>

If we are going for realism real life leaders have next to no clue real time what jobs to add to serve the unemployed nor do the know exactly how many jobs a block of medium inudtrial zone will provide and to whom.

Originally posted by: jap88It also is unclear to what range different city services are effective and who is benefitting from them.  I have a homes for qualified workers right next to both an elementary school and high school, yet  have low education satisfaction.  The only information I get is that the efficiency is 'high.'  Placing public services then becomes a guessing game.  It seems near impossible to satisfy these people.  Why do people want more shops when the ones I have too many already and are being forced out of business?  (Or on the other hand, why are farms going bankrupt when there is vast undersupply of that good?)  It's not as if I put 20 of them next to each other, I spread them out to make sure they are as effective as possible.quote>

Public services generally have a city wide rating in the description.  In other words unlimited range and all have a relative efficiency.  Each sector aggreagates.  How much for a given population you can find out by clicking on the pop panel and going to the satisfaction tab then placing said serviceand watching the satisfaction change.  Don't try and make them 100% if people are still moving in you are fine.  On retail place them one at a time spread out.  On farms don't get pollution near them or run 100% employment since they are far from your city center usually they are the last place the workers will choose to work if given options.  5% unemployment is a good target.

Originally posted by: jap88You'll find most of the game is spent trying to get your budget to balance.  Early on is no problem, but as soon as you start to run out of fuel, water, or fertile land, you're completely screwed.  Unless you try to satisfy leisure needs.  Then you're screwed long before that.  The ability to manage a budget is completely based on the already-flawed concept of trade that the game implements that only really works with the PO anyway.quote>

Such is the real life fate of many a city leader.  Sacrifice happiness for growth and never enough money to go around.

Originally posted by: jap88Mass transit.  Need I say more?  I will though.  I'm at a developing city of 100,000 residents right now (I abandoned my 300,000 one after I realized there wasn't a chance I'd be able to trade for fuel).  I'm already having issues with congested roads.  There is only so much you can do, unless you feel like deleting tons of public buildings and residences to make roads larger.  Once you start doing that though, the zones become incredibly tiny, and near worthless.  This is one of the main reasons mass transit exists in the first place, so the government doesn't have to use eminent domain to build up a bigger road.quote>

Have to plan for future growth.  Grided cities with small roads die quick deaths.  Few cities of 100k have meaningful public transport anyway.

Originally posted by: jap88The zoning also has a few issues.  It's fun (I really do like the free-zone tool).  However, there is this thing with the square zone tool where the zone mysteriously becomes ever so slightly smaller until, all of a sudden, the zone can only fit 4 lots instead of 6.  Why is the zone curving?  It's supposed to be a rectangle.  Our inability to rezone is also burdensome.  Instead we have to go through each zone we want to upgrade, delete all the current buildings, and then put new lots in for a different density.quote>

Think the first issue is it tries to line up roads.  I agree on the rezoning.

Originally posted by: jap88Despite all of these issues, it is still possible to have fun with the game to a point.  My personal biggest issue is managing cash flow.  There are too many expenses and too few sources of income.  The residential zones, and corresponding industrial zones, don't bring in enough cash to maintain all the services required for that area of the city and that industrial section's share of resources (electricity, waste, water, etc.)  I'll still be playing for a while, but I think CXL will soon be shelved until some of the issues are resolved.quote>

My current PO city is at 850k population without a lick of oil, industry, or manufacturing.  Think the high costs in SP screw you, but read the money making guide thread for some hints.  A larger size city you get some buildings that increase production of resources and the higher tier zones use different inputs.  high density office for example consumes high tech.  Don't try to keep everyone happy is first off.

[jap88 0]

Originally posted by: TexDave81

Plenty of cities also don't maintain or build schools, hospitals, layout subdivisions, build highways, water lines, garbage service, ports,  decide when an area is open for development.  Playing such a game would be boring as hell though.  My city owns natural gas wells on it's property and uses them for the gas department, it doesn't do half the stuff I metioned above though.quote>

This is true, at least the first part.  I have found in mosty city-builders you take more the role of both the state and city government in that you zone, but much of the upkeep for different services is often done by the state in many areas.  Though, there really isn't a state (or federal government for that matter).  Not a single one is responsible for finding goods to be used by private enterprises.  I sure didn't have to do it in SC4, and that game was still certainly fun.  In CXL you have to babysit businesses.  And surely your city doesn't simply give natural gas away for free like our cities seem to.  The business say they have to buy the fuel.  Well who are they buying it from?  We're just giving it away, not selling.

A rotating restauraunt on a tower was built by the city of San Antonio for Hemisphare, which while being a financial boondogle is considered to be the seminal moment in San Antonios modern history where the community galvanized together.quote>

Yes, I know about that actually.  However, the upper class in san antonio was not complaining to their city government about a lack of leisure activities.  The city will usually maintain parks (and that within parks, like tennis courts, playgrounds, etc.) and some musuems will be maintained by state funds (And donations), but most of these 'leisure activites' would be privately owned.  They would be built in an area zoned for commercial use by the city.

If we are going for realism real life leaders have next to no clue real time what jobs to add to serve the unemployed nor do the know exactly how many jobs a block of medium inudtrial zone will provide and to whom.quote>

I can give you that, however I should be able to make an accurate guess based upon the number of people that are employed by similarly-sized zones.  But I don't have that information either.

Public services generally have a city wide rating in the description.  In other words unlimited range and all have a relative efficiency.  Each sector aggreagates.  How much for a given population you can find out by clicking on the pop panel and going to the satisfaction tab then placing said serviceand watching the satisfaction change.  Don't try and make them 100% if people are still moving in you are fine.  On retail place them one at a time spread out.  On farms don't get pollution near them or run 100% employment since they are far from your city center usually they are the last place the workers will choose to work if given options.  5% unemployment is a good target.quote>

Well, yes, technically they have unlimited range, but people's satisfaction with a particular service decreases the further away from the service they are.  It would be nice to have a relative efficiency to work with.  As I said, I've had housing directly next to both a High School and Elementary school and still have a low education satisfaction.

My current PO city is at 850k population without a lick of oil, industry, or manufacturing.  Think the high costs in SP screw you, but read the money making guide thread for some hints.  A larger size city you get some buildings that increase production of resources and the higher tier zones use different inputs.  high density office for example consumes high tech.  Don't try to keep everyone happy is first off.quote>

Do you not even import any oil, industry, or manufacturing?  High tech uses manufacturing I believe (which uses heavy industry).  I'm not exactly sure how you could do that unless you import the services from other cities.  (Much cheaper in PO as you said).

[SimFab 0]

"Few cities of 100k have meaningful public transport anyway."

You've clearly never visited Switzerland . Or many other places in continental Europe for that matter.

[sparky66 0]

i think this game, especially solo mode, is being held back by the PO offer. if MC just released expansion packs for solo mode (no subscription needed) and sorted out solo trading (allow you to trade with your own cities, not just omnicorp) this game could be alot better.

also, about the mass transit. i don't know anywhere near where i live (south of england) that doesn't have some sort of mass transit, no matter how small. the village where i live has a regular bus service as well as a train station. in the countryside there are even request bus stops for single cottages in the middle of nowhere! also, i know of a request train station that only serves a single pub, but you have to walk across two muddy fields to get there!

[Jokurr 175]

Originally posted by: SimFab

"Few cities of 100k have meaningful public transport anyway."

You've clearly never visited Switzerland . Or many other places in continental Europe for that matter.

quote>

Or any city in North America either. You would be hard pressed to find any city half that size that doesn't have a bus system. Don't underestimate how much real cities rely on mass transit, even here in North America where we are not up to par with europe in that respect.

[TheJackalope 0]

By meaningful I meant where a sizable as in 15% or more of the populace uses mass transit exclusively to get around town. intercity rail and bus or single person pickup I don't consider mass transit for game purposes since what we are talking about is systems that reduce auto use. SC4 you could plop down a bus stop in a low density neighborhood and half of them would take it to work, which is not realistic.

[Kredit 0]

In the Netherlands (where I live), there's public transport in every city, town, village, barn with a road attached, etc.

But, that's public transport, not mass transport... I wouldn't call a bus holding 80 passengers "mass transport", though I'm not sure where I would draw the line...

[BjEurope 0]

I totally agree with jap88's criticism. The game actually is fun to play for quite a few aspects, but overall it is not logically "constructed".

What I wanted is a City-Builder Game, where I take the role of a mayor and care about things connected to constructing a city. That means I do not want to have to place every single bar, cinema etc. This is just local business and could be part of a GEM instead. What a city builder should be, is a game where you are concerned with zoning, technical issues like traffic, public transport, taxation, re-densification of inner urban areas and so on.

Unfortunately, this is where CXL is failing quite a bit. I have to spend a lot of time on placing individual farms, but cannot individually control, how much taxes certain industries or inhabitants have to pay. I get no access to public transport to solve my traffic problems and when I am trying to lay new roads, I have to manually deconstruct every building standing in the way just to finally realize, that the road doesn't fit in there because of steepness or some weird programming.

Dealing with Madalff really is a pain in the butt, but it is no surprise as Montechristo are trying to sell their PlanetOffer. Well, I do not want it. I'm a working professional trying to relax in the evenings by playing CXL, but I do not have enough time to, nor do I actually want to join a MMO or whatever you want to call it. It just does not pay off for me, as I do not know how much time I'll actually be able to spend playing CXL. Regarding my playing habits with SC4. I might spend two weeks intensively playing and the forgetting all about it for several months. Rejoin. Forget. Rejoin. Forget. Why should I pay for something when I cannot estimate how much of a use it will have for me?

Another thing is, that you cannot adress some of the problems of inhabitants or industries effectively, as you are given no clue, what exactly they are in need of. Unqualified workers are complaining about insufficient education while they are direct neighbours of both elementary and high school. What do they want? Private schools? Farm workers want to send their children to private schools nowadays? Yeah, right! Pollution is incredibly steep in the game and you basically cannot do anything against it. Just put your industries, your power plants and your wastelands in one corner of the map and everything else in the other. By the way, since when do windturbines actually pollute? They might not be nice to look at for some inhabitants (I'm thinking of the rich ones) or might even make some noise, but pollution? Isn't that what they are thought to be used against?

The sad thing is. Some of the flaws are so deeply integrated in the game concept, that there is no real hope for a fix. Others might be easily fixable as enable rezoning or auto-deconstruct when building something new. As for rezoning, it actually is something happening in real life quite often, so why should it not be implemented?.

So please, Montechristo. Listen to your fanbase, and not just the PO-one. Fundamentelly re-balance your game when it comes to dealing with OmniCorp. Re-think, what a city actually has to pay for in real-life and make us do so, but do not charge the mayor for private businesses as cinemas and if you can't get around it. Do so in a more logical way. I understand why i might have to pay 50.000 C for a large Hospital. But why do I have to pay mothly fees for a private school as a mayor. Makes no sense to me.

So City-Builder fans of all kinds. Let's unite to give Montechristo the feedback they say they are so eager to get. I Think CXL is a great starting point for a really long-term useable game, once some of the major flaws are patched. We should help them by putting a (wish)list together and let Simtropolis send over to them. I think they might readjust some things after realizing we are not happy.

[JakeMD 107]

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