American Made???

[PattyO 0]

Ok, I have a little query for you all:

I come from the US (as many do, I'm sure) and as you may or may not know, there have been some initiatives here in the US to increase the amount of goods manufactured at home... "Made in the USA." As with all things, this has a number of reasons. 1) Ensured safety - Importing goods from China, for instance, has brought us lead-tainted childrens toys and mercury-infested fish, among other things. Knowing that something was made in America under our own standards might make people feel safer. 2) Patriotism - This one isn't more apparent than in the act of numerous states passing laws that require American Flags to be made in the US. Some people feel that they should be loyal to their own country and purchase from home. 3) Job Creation - The manufacturing industries in the USA have been in decline for decades, to the point where we manufacture impressively little of what we actually purchase and consume. With those manufacturing plants have gone jobs and profits here at home, all because it can be made in Latin America or overseas for less money (even with cost of shipping).

Now my story - I work at a manufacturing plant in western Wisconsin. We make products for a major American company (which I will not name). While I can't exactly explain what we do or make (I signed a contract  ), I can tell you that we make things in bulk, package, and ship these items. Many of the items we make say "Made in Canada." This I have noticed, and have asked multiple people as to why the items say such a thing (I most certainly do not live in Canada, btw), but no one so far has really given me an explanation. Even the raw materials that make the finished product do not come from Canada, so I'm at a loss as to why our company chooses to label everything as if it were made elsewhere.

"If my company were hoping to sell their product in the US, wouldn't it make more sense to advertise the fact that it's American made?" That's what I thought, before I began thinking... "Maybe they plan on selling this in Canada." Well, that makes the situation a lot different, doesn't it? All of a sudden, a thought popped into my head.

What happens if an American company should decide to manufacture a good in China. Say, children's toys, because the labor is so much less expensive. What if this company printed "Made in the USA" on all the goods, and shipped the goods over to the US and sold them in American stores. Americans would (obviously, given the packaging) believe that it was made in America. Can such a thing happen? Can we really trust these packages when they tell us where it's made?

[Easy Bakes 253]

No

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: PattyO

Now my story - I work at a manufacturing plant in western Wisconsin. We make products for a major American company (which I will not name). While I can't exactly explain what we do or make (I signed a contract  ), I can tell you that we make things in bulk, package, and ship these items. Many of the items we make say "Made in Canada." This I have noticed, and have asked multiple people as to why the items say such a thing (I most certainly do not live in Canada, btw), but no one so far has really given me an explanation. Even the raw materials that make the finished product do not come from Canada, so I'm at a loss as to why our company chooses to label everything as if it were made elsewhere.

quote>

It seems to me to be flat out dishonest to say that something is made in Canada when it is, in fact, made in Wisconsin.

I imagine it has something to do with the apparently secret nature of these things.  whatever they are.

[PattyO 0]

Well, it's not like we're making things for the military if that's what you're getting at

Haha what would make you think such a thing?

No, I can't think that it being secret would be an issue... We're not allowed to talk about how its made or what it is, but I can tell you you'll find it in a lot of stores, so its by no means "classified"

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Shadow Assassin 336]

Are there Canadian products used in the manufacture of that product? Then maybe they do that.

Still, it's technically illegal.

[PattyO 0]

No like I said the products used in the final product were all from the US... some of them even made in the same building.

My issue is more or less. could a company make something in another place and pass it off as american-made?

[CryptoQuick 0]

A lot of cars are made in Canada, actually.

http://www.canadianmade.com/automotive.shtml

Although it looks like a weird list, you can also cross-reference to see what's listed on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_vic

...for example.

"Generally, articles only change their country of origin if the work or material added to an article in the second country constitutes a substantial transformation, or, the article changes its name, tariff code, character or use (for instance from wheel to car)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_origin

So, basically, even though you make parts for the car in the US, the assembly is done in Canada, which means, by the Kyoto convention, that product is Made in Canada. Sorta like how every iPod and iPhone says on the back, 'Made in China, Designed by Apple in California".

It's pretty sad how many vehicles are made in Canada and Mexico, to be honest; I wanted to buy an American-made car, but, for example the Ford Fusion is made in Mexico. I've heard good things about that vehicle, too. Oh well.

[CryptoQuick 0]

I'd also like to add how pitiful it is that you cannot buy a computer made outside of China, and nearly all electronic products make a stop there. The only exceptions I can think of are extremely complex parts, such as CPUs, GPUs, and hard drives. So-called secondary silicon is, however, on its way there, as Intel has built a 65nm foundry there. *****, I'm running a 65nm CPU-- it's not half bad, neither--, this is ridiculous! Sure, it's a process node that's over two years old now, but still, I shudder to think of where China will be in 10 years, and where we'll be in comparison. China is already spending as much money on renewable energy as they are on national defense; they plan to have 20% of their energy produced from renewable sources, more than any major country today (***** like Iceland doesn't count, because of Bjork and their population under many American cities).

[chris0101 8]

Originally posted by: CryptoQuick

It's pretty sad how many vehicles are made in Canada and Mexico, to be honest; I wanted to buy an American-made car, but, for example the Ford Fusion is made in Mexico. I've heard good things about that vehicle, too. Oh well.quote>

What's so sad about a car made in Canada? Our labour laws are on par if not better, as our environmental standards. (Of course, by that logic, we should all buy things made from Western Europe) Nobody is being paid $2 an hour or anything like that.

Furthermore, most outsourcing is not from the US to Canada, it is from the developed world to the rest of the world where wages are lower, costs are cheaper, taxes are lower, and laws are more lax.

[CryptoQuick 0]

As an American, it's sad to see my great country spread itself so thin. You're a canadian, you wouldn't understand; your country was never great.

[Easy Bakes 253]

My Toyota was made in Tennesse.

check that Assembeled in Tennesse but it guess that counts and made in USA

[PattyO 0]

Originally posted by: chris0101

What's so sad about a car made in Canada? Our labour laws are on par if not better, as our environmental standards. (Of course, by that logic, we should all buy things made from Western Europe) Nobody is being paid $2 an hour or anything like that.

Furthermore, most outsourcing is not from the US to Canada, it is from the developed world to the rest of the world where wages are lower, costs are cheaper, taxes are lower, and laws are more lax.

quote>

Americans, when they buy American cars from an American company expect that those cars are actually built in America. It's not that Canada isnt'a good place, but Americans expect (incorrectly) that American automakers will manufacture nationally, when it's not the case.

And I heard about Toyota... I don't know if its all the cars they sell in the US that are made here, but I think its a good idea. Any way to increase manufacturing in the US is fine by me, so long as it's done reasonably.

[CryptoQuick 0]

Yeah, at this point, I don't give a rat's ass about whether the company is based outta the US, I care if they're employing American workers. Workers make for a strong economy, they're what makes an economy truly rich. Corporate profits just go to Wall Street and investors, the bourgeois elite. People here moan that unions are bringing the American autoworker down, like it's a bad thing when a certain number figure (that they pull out their ass) goes towards their retirement or healthcare. I'd rather it go to that than some ---edited for language--- on the trading floor.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Originally posted by: CryptoQuick

As an American, it's sad to see my great country spread itself so thin. You're a canadian, you wouldn't understand; your country was never great. quote>

Speaking as a Brit. I think this justify's an apology. It's an unjustfied slur on another country. Being great is a matter of opinion.

PS. Canadian begins with a capital C.

[Meg 368]

Merlin has an excellent point there. The rules prohibit:

d. Discrimination against the age, race, gender, religion, ethnicity, nationality, or sexual orientation of another member.quote>

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: chris0101

What's so sad about a car made in Canada? Our labour laws are on par if not better, as our environmental standards. (Of course, by that logic, we should all buy things made from Western Europe) Nobody is being paid $2 an hour or anything like that. quote>

Most of the desire to see stuff made in the US has little to do with things like labor laws or kids working in sweatshops, or such.  It's a desire to see stuff made in own's own country.  Canada's labor laws and environmental standards may be equal or better to those of the US, but the fact that it's not made in the US is the only thing that matters.

Furthermore, most outsourcing is not from the US to Canada, it is from the developed world to the rest of the world where wages are lower, costs are cheaper, taxes are lower, and laws are more lax. quote>

That is not entirely true (if it were, that means Toyota considers Canada to be an underdeveloped nation).  Outsourcing goes where it makes the most economic sense to move, which can be to another developed country.  One such example of this is the Lexus RX300 SUV.  Originally, production for the American market was done in Japan.  When it came time for a model upgrade, Toyota opted to move the production to Canada because it was cheaper to make the vehicle in Canada and ship it to the US than it was to make it in Japan and ship it to the US.

Originally posted by: CryptoQuick

Corporate profits just go to Wall Street and investors, the bourgeois elite.quote>

So because I own corporate stock I'm one of the bourgeois elite?  Dude, I'm in college and I'm as poor as dirt.  The fact that one is an investor does not make that individual some sort of elitist.  He/she is likely just an individual that knows something about the stock market and is hoping to produce some extra money for retirement.

People here...moan that unions are bringing the American autoworker down, like it's a bad thing when a certain number figure (that they pull out their ass) goes towards their retirement or healthcare.quote>

It is a bad thing when unions get such a stranglehold on a company that it can no longer function competitvely, which is what has happened with GM, Ford, and Chrysler.  The unions were supposed to be about protecting the worker from unfair business practices, but they did not stop there.  The UAW made it effectively impossible for the Big Three to run their businesses at all.  The UAW got such a choke hold on the Big Three that they couldn't lay off employees without union permission.  If they needed to close a plant, the UAW had to approve it first.  Keep in mind that the UAW doesn't own any of this property nor hold employment contracts with the personnel, but UAW gets the final say in what happened.  And the UAW didn't stop there.  The UAW demanded partial operational control of all three of the Big Three. There is a reason why the Japanese built their assembly plants in the South where the desire to unionize is low and union resistence is fairly high.  They saw what the UAW had done to the Big Three, and they knew they would suffer the same fate if the UAW got to them. This may seem harsh, but for the past 40-50 years, the UAW has been a plague on the automotive industry and it shares a major portion of the blame for the general deterioration of the Big Three.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Originally posted by: hym

It is a bad thing when unions get such a stranglehold on a company that it can no longer function competitvely, which is what has happened with GM, Ford, and Chrysler.  The unions were supposed to be about protecting the worker from unfair business practices, but they did not stop there.  The UAW made it effectively impossible for the Big Three to run their businesses at all.  The UAW got such a choke hold on the Big Three that they couldn't lay off employees without union permission.  If they needed to close a plant, the UAW had to approve it first.  Keep in mind that the UAW doesn't own any of this property nor hold employment contracts with the personnel, but UAW gets the final say in what happened.  And the UAW didn't stop there.  The UAW demanded partial operational control of all three of the Big Three. There is a reason why the Japanese built their assembly plants in the South where the desire to unionize is low and union resistence is fairly high.  They saw what the UAW had done to the Big Three, and they knew they would suffer the same fate if the UAW got to them. This may seem harsh, but for the past 40-50 years, the UAW has been a plague on the automotive industry and it shares a major portion of the blame for the general deterioration of the Big Three.

quote>

Pretty much what happened to British Leyland.....R.I.P.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

What's the big deal? Our president wasn't born here, but the marketing campaign said he was.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

What's the big deal? Our president wasn't born here, but the marketing campaign said he was.

quote>

I thought he was! Wasn't it his father who was born in Keyna. Anyway the big deal is basically telling lies.

[Duke87 1,070]

Alright, look. You claim you're making something in Wisconsin but stamping "made in Canada" on it. However, you won't say what, or by whom. So, for lack of any actual evidence beyond taking your word for it, I'm going to have to point to rule 31 here:

You must have pictures to prove your statements

In other words, you're going to have to demonstrate to me that you're not just making this up before I'll believe it.

Originally posted by: Merlin of Flyote

Originally posted by: manticorefan

What's the big deal? Our president wasn't born here, but the marketing campaign said he was.

quote>

I thought he was! Wasn't it his father who was born in Keyna. Anyway the big deal is basically telling lies.quote>

His father was born in Kenya. Luo tribe. His mother was Hawaiian, and he was born in Hawaii (though he spent a lot of his childhood in Indonesia).

There is a conspiracy theory out there that he was actually born in Kenya but that that was covered up in the interest of being able to have a black president. It started as a smear attempt by some nutty conservatives to take him down. Some people still buy into the idea. Then again, a lot of people also insist that the Apollo landing was filmed in Hollywood and that the CIA blew up the World Trade Center. So don't concern yourself too much with it.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Yeah, that's why his birth certificate still has not been reviewed or examined by anyone with genuine credentials. That's why they went to court to keep anyone from seeing it. That's why his grandmother talked about being present when he was born in Kenya. But you keep believing Snopes, as if they have unimpeachable proof. They don't, no one has. It has never been settled, just pushed into the backroom by the media. Of course now there's been plenty of time to forge one.

His people said that even said that he had automatic citizenship through his father anyway, until it was pointed out that Kenya was specifically excluded from that law.

There were people here who worked with him who were surprised he was claiming to be born here... as far as they knew, he wasn't. Now who gave them that idea? Couldn't have been from his own mouth, could it? Of course not! They must have misheard what he said, or were confused, or on drugs. OFL would never lie about such a thing to run for President, would he? Never! Candidates never cover up their past to feed their unquenchable ambition. Bill Clinton wasn't treated for cocaine overdose at an ER in Little Rock, Arkansas in 1980, either, was he? That doctor (since mysteriously disappeared) must have been a publicity hound looking to make a name by besmirching an honest man, right?

For someone who flies the flag of skepticism so proudly, you seem to be ready to swallow just about any story.

[PattyO 0]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Alright, look. You claim you're making something in Wisconsin but stamping "made in Canada" on it. However, you won't say what, or by whom. So, for lack of any actual evidence beyond taking your word for it, I'm going to have to point to rule 31 here:

You must have pictures to prove your statements

In other words, you're going to have to demonstrate to me that you're not just making this up before I'll believe it. quote>

I'd love to show you pictures, but photography in the plant is a fire-able offense, as is breaking the secrecy of some of the products we make; it's just the way it is. I work for a company called Amtec (Amery Technical Products), based in Amery, Wisconsin, that makes products for 3M inc. (among others). That's all I'm really able to discuss without going too far. Anything beyond that and you are just going to have to accept my word for it, because I can't think of any further way I can attempt to prove this without breaking a contract and putting my job on the line. If you can think up a way for me to do that, by all means I am listening.

The product I mentioned are called hang tabs - they are strips of plastic with adhesive backs and holes punched into the top. They are used on packages for products in stores, and hung (usually) on racks / shelves in stores. They are made in the United States (we're not the only produce, they could have producers in Canada or elsewhere for all I know), but the intermediate boxes and the cases that are shipped are both labeled 'Made in Canada' . There are a couple other things labeled this way, but other products made in the plant are labeled "Made in USA" . I haven't personally seen or worked with every single product in the plant so I can't really say how much is labelled as Canada vs United States.

And to manticorefan, you say prove that Obama wasn't born in the US, I say prove that he wasn't. Because from where I sit he's president right now, so it's going to take a lot of proof to change that fact.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

Yeah, that's why his birth certificate still has not been reviewed or examined by anyone with genuine credentials. That's why they went to court to keep anyone from seeing it. That's why his grandmother talked about being present when he was born in Kenya. quote>

[citation needed]

But you keep believing Snopes, as if they have unimpeachable proof. quote>

Snopes? Who said anything about snopes? How about the fact that he was permitted to run for and actually sworn in as president? Somehow I doubt that would have happened had everything not checked out.

Bill Clinton wasn't treated for cocaine overdose at an ER in Little Rock, Arkansas in 1980, either, was he? That doctor (since mysteriously disappeared) must have been a publicity hound looking to make a name by besmirching an honest man, right?quote>

Say what? This is a new one on me. Explain.

For someone who flies the flag of skepticism so proudly, you seem to be ready to swallow just about any story.quote>

...like your crazy stories here that I'm oh so totally buying into?

Originally posted by: PattyO

Anything beyond that and you are just going to have to accept my word for itquote>

No.

I can't think of any further way I can attempt to prove this without breaking a contract and putting my job on the line.quote>

Here's an idea: if you can't prove your claims due to "secrecy", or something... don't even open your mouth in the first place. This "I have proof but I can't share it with you so you're just gonna have to take my word for it" nonsense ain't gonna fly. Contracts of secrecy do not make your word a valid substitute for solid evidence.

There are invisible gnomes living under the icecaps of Mars. I can't say any more than that because I'm contractually bound not to. So you're just gonna have to take my word for it.

[PattyO 0]

I see your point. I guess we're at an impasse... there's simply no way I can substantiate what I am telling, except for giving you my word that it's the complete and honest truth.

As for the little Obama side-track, it really doesn't matter. He's sworn in now and not much will change that I think. That has little to do with my original topic, mind you.

Please close this thread as there is nothing to add to the discussion if you're not willing to accept my word (what possible motive would I have for making this up, btw?) that this is actually happening. Thank you.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Originally posted by: manticorefan

Yeah, that's why his birth certificate still has not been reviewed or examined by anyone with genuine credentials. That's why they went to court to keep anyone from seeing it. That's why his grandmother talked about being present when he was born in Kenya. quote>

[citation needed]quote>

But you keep believing Snopes, as if they have unimpeachable proof. quote>

Snopes? Who said anything about snopes? How about the fact that he was permitted to run for and actually sworn in as president? Somehow I doubt that would have happened had everything not checked out. quote>

Snopes was the source you cited the last time we discussed this.

Bill Clinton wasn't treated for cocaine overdose at an ER in Little Rock, Arkansas in 1980, either, was he? That doctor (since mysteriously disappeared) must have been a publicity hound looking to make a name by besmirching an honest man, right?quote>

Say what? This is a new one on me. Explain. quote>

Wow.

Roger Morris, Partners In Power (1996) is a good source for the Clinton coke rackets in Arkansas.

Sam Smith of the Progressive Review (no right-wing bias there):

There are reports that following his loss, Clinton ended up in the hospital for a drug overdose. Journalist R. Emmett Tyrrell later asked emergency room workers at the University of Arkansas Medical Center if they could confirm the incident. He didn't get a flat "no" from the hospital staff. One nurse said, "I can't talk about that." Another said she feared for her life if she spoke of the matter.

Newsmax will report: "Dr. Sam Houston, a respected Little Rock physician and once a doctor for Hillary's cantankerous father, Hugh Rodham, says it is well known in Little Rock medical circles that Clinton was brought to a Little Rock hospital for emergency treatment for an apparent cocaine overdose. According to Houston, who told us he spoke to someone intimately familiar with the details of what happened that night, Clinton arrived at the hospital with the aid of a state trooper. Hillary Clinton had been notified by phone and had instructed the hospital staff that Clinton's personal physician would be arriving soon. When Mrs. Clinton arrived, she told both of the resident physicians on duty that night that they would never practice medicine in the United States if word leaked out about Clinton's drug problem. Reportedly, she pinned one of the doctors up against the wall, both hands pressed against his shoulders, as she gave her dire warning."   [page link]

quote>

[chris0101 8]

Why on earth does Barrack Obama's birthplace have anything to do with his ability to run a country? If he was born in Kenya, fine. It is his ability to run a nation that matters, not where on earth he was born. It does not matter whether he was born on the moon. What matters is his leadership abilities.

Going back on topic, you'll see goods made in places like Saipan stamped with the "Made in USA" logo. Often, goods in the modern world are made in many places and then assembled somewhere else. Who gets to say what nation it is made in? Typically, the manufacturer will put the nation that has the most appeal such as a developed country. Pretty much these days, the "Made in xxx" should be dismissed without further verification.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: chris0101

Why on earth does Barrack Obama's birthplace have anything to do with his ability to run a country? If he was born in Kenya, fine. It is his ability to run a nation that matters, not where on earth he was born. It does not matter whether he was born on the moon. What matters is his leadership abilities. quote>

Citizenship matters when it comes to eligibility for the office of President.  Those who are not a natural born US citizen are not eligible to be President.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Duke87

His mother was Hawaiian . . quote>

Not exactly.  She was born in Kansas and has ancestors that were on the Mayflower.

She attended the University of Hawaii.

Snopes was the source you cited the last time we discussed this.quote>

Speaking of the last time you discussed this, do we need to make a thread solely for this discussion so that it doesn't continue to disrupt other threads about other topics?

Since the originator of this thread has asked for it to be closed, it now is.