George Tiller shot to death

[Duke87 1,070]

right outside his church, no less.

For those who aren't aware, Mr. Tiller has been a controversial figure for over two decades for his performing of late term abortions, and has had been the victim of vandalism and other attacks from radical anti-abortionists several times before.

LA Times Story

[Explodingsims 3]

After reading what he's been through, It's surprising he lasted this long.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Very Tragic.

fanatics strike again.

Obama's Quote is something we should all embrace.

I am shocked and outraged by the murder of Dr. George Tiller as he attended church services this morning. However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence

quote>

The trial of the suspect is what will realy be a media circus, all the nuts will be out for that.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

The danger of the 2nd amendment, but that's another thread.

[Aontan 0]

A pro-life campaigner killing an abortionist? Anyone else see the irony here?

Definitely isn't one way to get people on your side, anyway.  

[Patricius Maximus 236]

Tragic, but it shows the utter hypocrisy of many, if not most pro-lifers. A person who thinks that killing a non-sentient parasitical life-form amounts to murder and an offense against the laws of god, has violated those laws himself. Which is worse? Killing a cell, or killing a human? The human is the worse act.

The danger of the 2nd amendment, but that's another thread.quote>

The Second Amendment only guarantees a person's right to keep and bear arms. It does not guarantee a right to murder. Remember this simple phrase: Removing the method to kill will not remove the intent to kill.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

Tragic, but it shows the utter hypocrisy of many, if not most pro-lifers. A person who thinks that killing a non-sentient parasitical life-form amounts to murder and an offense against the laws of god, has violated those laws himself. Which is worse? Killing a cell, or killing a human? The human is the worse act.quote>

Your callousness towards the unborn is duly noted. Your over-generalization of the pro-life community is also noted.

For the record, Tiller wasn't a garden-variety abortionist, he was a practitioner of partial birth abortion, where a child is partially delivered to expose the head, and the head is crushed or punctured and the brain sucked out. This is done up to the day of delivery (albeit in rare cases). The "non-sentient parasite" will scream and struggle, as "it" is entirely capable of feeling pain. It is infanticide, and everyone knows it.

That it happened in a church was surprising, why would he bother to be there? And, as a Christian, I have to ask, what church would have an unrepentant (indeed, defiant) abortionist not just as a member, but an usher? Are they that hard up to fill the offering plate?

The shock over this happening in a church reminds me of Luke 13:1-5, and the story of Pilate slaughtering the Galileans in the temple and mixing their blood with that of the sacrifice. Jesus isn't reported to be outraged or shocked, but answered: "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.".

Not that I support his murder, but I'm not exactly worked up about it either. There's too much other suffering and outrageous injustice against the truly innocent in this world for me to shed a tear for Tiller the Killer; like his "non-sentient parasitic" victims.

[Patricius Maximus 236]

Your callousness towards the unborn is duly noted. Your over-generalization of the pro-life community is also noted.quote>

How about your callousness towards an amoeba, a blood cell, a nematode, or a bacterium? An embryo/fetus is a non-sentient lifeform, the same as the ones previously mentioned, and does demonstrate parasitical characteristics, according even to a dictionary definition:

1 : a person who exploits the hospitality of the rich and earns welcome by flattery

2 : an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism

3 : something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate returnquote>

A fetus, even though it has the consent of the person carrying it to be there, meets definition 2.

Also, I did not generalize the pro-life "community" as hypocrite murderers. I stated that many, if not most, pro-lifers are hypocrites because they value protecting non-sentient parasites over humans from the state (execution), animals from butchers, or even bacteria from hand sanitizer.

For the record, Tiller wasn't a garden-variety abortionist, he was a practitioner of partial birth abortion, where a child is partially delivered to expose the head, and the head is crushed or punctured and the brain sucked out. This is done up to the day of delivery (albeit in rare cases). The "non-sentient parasite" will scream and struggle, as "it" is entirely capable of feeling pain. It is infanticide, and everyone knows it.quote>

First of all, I do not understand why he is being called an abortionist. Logically, an abortionist would be a believer in abortionism. Since there is no definition of what abortionism is, someone cannot be called an abortionist. He was a doctor that performed abortions of all varities.

Secondly, I am aware of the methods used in partial-birth abortion, and while sucking any life-form's brains out is disgusting, I find nothing unethical about it. Even the lowest insect or worm will know if its head has been crushed, and will struggle, and if it could make a sound it very well could scream. These actions do not demonstrate sentience.

Thirdly, you are making the same generalizations you accuse me of, in stating that everyone knows it is infanticide. Even if it was infanticide, it would be factually incorrect to say that everyone knows it.

Not that I support his murder, but I'm not exactly worked up about it either. There's too much other suffering and outrageous injustice against the truly innocent in this world for me to shed a tear for Tiller the Killer; like his "non-sentient parasitic" victims.quote>

You are a killer, too, and so is everyone else. Have you bothered to count your bacterial, eukaryotic, and insectoid victims today?

Perhaps the descriptions I used to describe fetuses were too harsh for your sensibilities surrounding this particular issue, but that is my opinion, however callous it may sound (or read) to you.

[Meg 368]

My official comments:     Let's remember to discuss the issues, not each other.

 

My personal comments:

There are many Americans who believe that abortion in the first trimester is acceptable but after that, it is not.  Nobody likes it but this is perceived as practical.

This group tends to get drowned out by the extremists at both ends.  One group claiming it is not acceptable at any point; the other group claiming it is not acceptable to restrict it at all.

 

There is a sick form of irony in "I am a religious person who believes in the right to life therefore I must kill you in your church".

As to why this guy was in church in the first place, that was his prerogative.  He, like the rest of us, was free to worship as he wished.  That particular church could have invited him to leave if he didn't meet their standards but apparently that was not the case.

[hym 358]

There is a sick form of irony in "I am a religious person who believes in the right to life therefore I must kill you in your church".quote>

This is true, but the guy had some seriously whacked up opinions, so he can't be used to point fingers at the rest of pro-life individuals. Doing so is a logical fallacy.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

There are many Americans who believe that abortion in the first trimester is acceptable but after that, it is not.  Nobody likes it but this is perceived as practical.quote>

This seems reasonable, but of course it isn't that simple. Sometimes an abortion after three months is medically necessary. It depends on the circumstances, really. Any point where you legally draw the line between conception and birth is going to be arbitrary - and yet it is somewhere in there that the transition from acceptable to unacceptable occurs. A zygote or embryo is obviously not human enough to garner such protection. A late term fetus obviously is. But it doesn't just go suddenly from one to the other, it's a gradual transition. So, like with a lot of things, there's a gray area in there. The second trimester, especially the early part of it, is quite gray.

Here's the other problem: while you'd think that if a woman wanted an abortion, she'd be able to make the decision and get it done within three months, but that's not always the case. For example:

1) The woman is in denial that she's pregnant until her belly is visibly growing. Only then does she admit it and decide she wants an abortion.

2) Five months in, the woman and the father go through a nasty breakup, and all of a sudden she doesn't want that baby anymore.

3) The woman doesn't want a baby, but the father does, and so it takes her a while to work up the courage to get an abortion.

And so on. Adoption would be a practical alternative in all those cases, but it could be emotionally problematic. The woman hates being pregnant and wants it over sooner rather than later. The woman would rather know that the baby is dead than wonder all her life what became of it. In case 2, the woman hates that piece of her ex growing insider her, constantly reminding her of him and how much she hates him, and wants it gone now. In case 3, the woman would rather get the abortion and have that be the end of it than have to deal with the father trying to stop the adoption (easier to do than stopping an abortion) and then, afterward, continually trying to get his kid back.

As I've said before. Matters of romance. They're complicated.

This group tends to get drowned out by the extremists at both ends. quote>

This is true of a lot of issues. Stories about ordinary people don't grab attention and boost ratings. Stories about crazy people do.

We can sum it up nicely with this little graph:

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

There is a sick form of irony in "I am a religious person who believes in the right to life therefore I must kill you in your church".quote>

True. Although, the idea of killing one to save the lives of many others is nothing new.

But in this case it's flawed because it's founded on these three hasty assumptions:

1) that the life of an unborn baby is equal in value to that of a full grown human

2) that by killing him, you are actually saving those babies because the women who would have gotten abortions from him won't now just go elsewhere

3) that something gives you the right to take the matter into your own hands

People like this are dangerous because they're irrevocably convinced that they're right and what they're fighting for is a change unequivocally for the better - and, thereore, they believe that any action they take to achieve that end, no matter how extreme, is justified.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: hym

There is a sick form of irony in "I am a religious person who believes in the right to life therefore I must kill you in your church".quote>

This is true, but the guy had some seriously whacked up opinions, so he can't be used to point fingers at the rest of pro-life individuals. Doing so is a logical fallacy.quote>

  Did I say that he could be used to point fingers at the rest of pro-life individuals?

Originally posted by: Duke87

As I've said before. Matters of romance. They're complicated. quote>

This is true.

We can sum it up nicely with this little graph:

quote>

That's a great graph, Duke.   Even though I suspect you made it up, I also suspect it is fairly accuate.

My major quibble with it is that it would be more accurate as a line graph, showing a bell curve and a reverse bell curve.  I see these as points on a continuum, not discrete chunks along the way.

quote>

[GMT 389]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

Tragic, but it shows the utter hypocrisy of many, if not most pro-lifers. A person who thinks that killing a non-sentient parasitical life-form amounts to murder and an offense against the laws of god, has violated those laws himself. Which is worse? Killing a cell, or killing a human? The human is the worse act.

The danger of the 2nd amendment, but that's another thread.quote>

The Second Amendment only guarantees a person's right to keep and bear arms. It does not guarantee a right to murder. Remember this simple phrase: Removing the method to kill will not remove the intent to kill.quote>

Or in other words:

It's not the gun that kills, it's the gunman.

oohhhh, and it has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment either. When there's a need for a gun, there's ways to get them, no matter what open or restrictive laws apply.

anyways, I can see many many people go nuts when it comes to a trial.

Bet the gunman (and related persons if so) will be celebrated as a martyr by radical/fanatic people on the pro-life side of it

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: hym

There is a sick form of irony in "I am a religious person who believes in the right to life therefore I must kill you in your church".quote>

This is true, but the guy had some seriously whacked up opinions, so he can't be used to point fingers at the rest of pro-life individuals. Doing so is a logical fallacy.quote>

  Did I say that he could be used to point fingers at the rest of pro-life individuals?quote>

I'm sorry.  My comment was meant as a general comment, not something directly aimed at you or anyone else.  Apologies on that.

To borrow Duke's provided graph, there is invariably going to be some nutjob who is going to scream that everyone that is opposed to abortion advocates the murder of doctors that perform abortions.  I was attempting to point out the logical fallacy behind the argument.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: hym

I'm sorry.  My comment was meant as a general comment, not something directly aimed at you or anyone else.  Apologies on that. quote>

Ah. Gotcha.   Thanks!

To borrow Duke's provided graph, there is invariably going to be some nutjob who is going to scream that everyone that is opposed to abortion advocates the murder of doctors that perform abortions.  I was attempting to point out the logical fallacy behind the argument.  quote>

 

The extreme nutjobs seem to think that the only other people who exist are the other extreme nutjobs.

[Joshua Searle 0]

well, imo george tiller was scum anyway so i think its good he is off this earth i disagree with the vast majority of abortion cases because not only can it damage a mothers physical health. The death of him means that possibly more lives will be saved. If you agree with abortion, how would you feel if you were aborted? Imo the only time a child can be aborted before 24 weeks is if the mother was sexually assulted. NOT if the child will be disabled. what a wicked thing to do. If you actually have the morals to agree with late abortions then in my eyes you are scum, nothing better and do not deserve to be alive. Call me strong viewed, and opinionated, but i find nothing correct about killing innocent organisms. Do not tell me that i "kill insectoids". Being of a kind nature, i make every effort not to harm any living organism. i'm even vegetarian. I do not support these views because i'm a catholic, but i support them because i feel that ANY unnecessary death is wrong, beit towads human or insect. Thats just my opinion though, which i am free to express.

[JanYpe 17]

If you actually have the morals to agree with late abortions then in my eyes you are scumquote>

As opposed to those lovely people who react to a boldfaced murder with a "". Gosh, where would we be without good godly people to form society's moral basis.

[Patricius Maximus 236]

This group tends to get drowned out by the extremists at both ends.quote>

This is true of a lot of issues. Stories about ordinary people don't grab attention and boost ratings. Stories about crazy people do.

We can sum it up nicely with this little graph:

quote>

Essentially true. The reason that graph is correct is that ordinary people do not want to see stories (and also movies, books, any medium) about ordinary people, because that is boring. People want to see something different, something extra-ordinary.

Or in other words:

It's not the gun that kills, it's the gunman.quote>

It is the same concept, although my quote was more generalized to include all methods.

oohhhh, and it has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment either. When there's a need for a gun, there's ways to get them, no matter what open or restrictive laws apply.quote>

Yes, there are. Criminalization will only drive a market underground, where regulation (good or bad) is impossible. I was saying that even if banning was a complete success, that there was not a single gun in the US that did not belong to the government, that there would still be as many murders.

well, imo george tiller was scum anyway so i think its good he is off this earth quote>

His killer did not succeed in that respect. His body is still on this planet.

If you agree with abortion, how would you feel if you were aborted?quote>

I would most likely feel nothing, as I would be non-sentient.

Imo the only time a child can be aborted before 24 weeks is if the mother was sexually assulted.quote>

Before 24 weeks? What about after 24 weeks? Of course, I'm sure you meant after.

If you actually have the morals to agree with late abortions then in my eyes you are scum, nothing better and do not deserve to be alive.quote>

I do not consider myself scum, but I appreciate the fact that you had the honesty to say it. I don't really care if you think I'm scum or not.

Do not tell me that i "kill insectoids".quote>

I did not tell that you killed insects. I merely asked Manticorefan if he bothered to count his insectoid, bacterial, and eukaryotic victims that he killed today. In your case the number of insect victims may be zero, but that is still counting them. I probably killed thousands of bacteria and eukaryotes today, and by the time this day is over probably one or two insects. I killed some non-sentient lifeforms. Using the murderer's logic, I am a mass murderer and therefore deserve to die. Remember that a fetus is non-sentient, and in the same basic category of those species, although cell structure is radically different.

[fukuda 351]

The "non-sentient parasite" will scream and strugglequote>

Scream? with non-functional flooded lungs?

If you agree with abortion, how would you feel if you were aborted?quote>

How on earth can I feel aborted?

find nothing correct about killing innocent organisms.quote>

innocent? How is an organism innocent or not? ._.

Being of a kind naturequote>

Really? where's the kindness in

you are scumquote>

and

do not deserve to be alive.quote>

?

[hamsterTK 93]

I think what this guy did was to provide late-term abortions to women who knew with today's technology that their child was going to have severe defects, i.e. a vegetable.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

I did not tell that you killed insects. I merely asked Manticorefan if he bothered to count his insectoid, bacterial, and eukaryotic victims that he killed today. In your case the number of insect victims may be zero, but that is still counting them. I probably killed thousands of bacteria and eukaryotes today, and by the time this day is over probably one or two insects. I killed some non-sentient lifeforms. Using the murderer's logic, I am a mass murderer and therefore deserve to die. Remember that a fetus is non-sentient, and in the same basic category of those species, although cell structure is radically different.

quote>

So, what you're saying is, people are insects are amoeba, and that bacteria are no different from humans for the point of this discussion. Wow, you must have been a real joy in Philosophy class. How did you arrive at this most-dehumanizing and ultimately absurd POV? It is certainly not far off of the reasoning used to build concentration camps. Very reminiscient of the extreme environmentalists who characterize humanity as an infestation, tantamount to mold or lichen overrunning the Earth.

Originally posted by: fukuda

The "non-sentient parasite" will scream and strugglequote>

Scream? with non-functional flooded lungs?quote>

Partial delivery, remember? If the head isn't crushed (compressed, they euphemistically call it) before crowning, the baby can indeed scream. They certainly struggle, or display other reactions to the trauma of having their skull punctured with scissors; that isn't disputed by either side.

[fukuda 351]

Partial delivery, remember? If the head isn't crushed (compressed, they euphemistically call it) before crowning, the baby can indeed scream. They certainly struggle, or display other reactions to the trauma of having their skull punctured with scissors; that isn't disputed by either side.quote>

Cite me one craniate that doesn't struggle, scream if it's able to or display reactions when their skull is being punctured... Slaughterhouses are pretty disgusting places to be.. This doesn't make pigs or cows human, though. *It's called compression because bones aren't calcified yet and they don't crush under the weight, by the way*

[Dvark 2]

Originally posted by: fukuda

This doesn't make pigs or cows human, though. quote>

Nobody here has suggested pigs or cows are human, they have stated that the human fetus is human This is biological  fact.

The argument is not about what is a human but which humans are persons.

And I love ur graphs Patricius.

[1979pumpkins 0]

We spend hundreds of billions of dollars to fight radical religious and political extremists all over the globe, I think it's about time we started to clean up our own house. The only difference between the "terrorists" and "extremists" in the Near and Middle East and here at home are the houses of worship they attend. Beyond that they all believe and do basically the same thing.

[yamaneko 2]

Originally posted by: Joshua Searle

> well, imo george tiller was scum anyway so i think its good he is off this earth

I wonder how many "scummy" people were in the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001.

>i disagree with the vast majority of abortion cases because not only can it damage a mothers physical health. The death of him means that possibly more lives will be saved.

Don't be so sure.  A week ago, the Gallup poll showed that most Americans considered themselves pro-life, for the first time in over a decade.  The last time this happened, some idiot killed a doctor and Americans turned on the pro-life cause as being linked with political violence.  Americans abhor political violence.  The loon who killed Dr. Tiller set back the pro-life cause another decade.  Save 5,000 fetuses, doom 8,000,000 more.

>If you agree with abortion, how would you feel if you were aborted?

Depends.  Before twelve weeks I probably would not know the difference.  At 12-24 weeks it would be most unpleasant.  If instead of a brain my cranium contained about a gallon of water or I was acephalic, I probably would not even mind undergoing the partial-birth procedure at 35 weeks.

>Imo the only time a child can be aborted before 24 weeks is if the mother was sexually assulted.

What if her life were in danger?  Do we kill the mother to save the fetus? 

>NOT if the child will be disabled. what a wicked thing to do. If you actually have the morals to agree with late abortions then in my eyes you are scum, nothing better and do not deserve to be alive. Call me strong viewed, and opinionated, but i find nothing correct about killing innocent organisms.

How do we reconcile this with your next paragraph?

>Do not tell me that i "kill insectoids". Being of a kind nature, i make every effort not to harm any living organism. i'm even vegetarian. I do not support these views because i'm a catholic, but i support them because i feel that ANY unnecessary death is wrong, beit towads human or insect. Thats just my opinion though, which i am free to express.quote>

The Roman Catholic Bishops of Kansas would disagree with you. Catholic Online represents the conservative side of the Catholic Church, and does its part to protest abortion.  They reprint a statement by the Bishops of Kansas.  www.catholic.org/politics/story.php

Statement of the Bishops of Kansas

"We, the four Catholic Bishops of the Dioceses of Kansas, unequivocally condemn the murder of Dr. George Tiller that occurred in Wichita earlier today. The Catholic Church believes that every human life is sacred.

"The murder of a human being is the gravest of crimes and is an intrinsic evil. Such an act of violence against human life is a contradiction of the most fundamental principle of the Pro-Life movement.

"The fact that this attack occurred in a church, a place of prayer and worship, only adds to the horror of this terrible crime.

"We prayerfully commend Dr. George Tiller to the mercy of God and we pray for comfort and consolation for his family and friends.

Most Reverend Joseph F. Naumann, Archbishop of Kansas City in Kansas

Most Reverend Ronald M. Gilmore, Bishop of Dodge City

Most Reverend Paul S. Coakley, Bishop of Salina

Most Reverend Michael O. Jackels, Bishop of Wichita

[Streetwise 3]

1. As a Christian, I am against abortion, except in extreme cases such as may be detrimental to the life and well-being of the mother.

2. I denounce any violence or illegal action against abortion providers, and therefore condemn the deadly action against George Tiller. 

[_Atticus 10]

Originally posted by: 1979pumpkins

We spend hundreds of billions of dollars to fight radical religious and political extremists all over the globe, I think it's about time we started to clean up our own house. The only difference between the "terrorists" and "extremists" in the Near and Middle East and here at home are the houses of worship they attend. Beyond that they all believe and do basically the same thing.quote>

The main difference between "extremists" and "terrorists" is that the "extremists" seek to stop what they consider to be  destruction (though I don't condone their actions), while the "terrorists" are trying to cause destruction. Trust me, they don't believe the same thing.

And shouldn't this thread be merged with the abortion thread at this point?

-Pingangster

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

For the record, Tiller wasn't a garden-variety abortionist, he was a practitioner of partial birth abortion, where a child is partially delivered to expose the head, and the head is crushed or punctured and the brain sucked out. This is done up to the day of delivery (albeit in rare cases). The "non-sentient parasite" will scream and struggle, as "it" is entirely capable of feeling pain. It is infanticide, and everyone knows it. 

quote>

Are you saying that the USA does not have a legal time limit beyond which abortions would be illegal.

[Patricius Maximus 236]

So, what you're saying is, people are insects are amoeba, and that bacteria are no different from humans for the point of this discussion. Wow, you must have been a real joy in Philosophy class. How did you arrive at this most-dehumanizing and ultimately absurd POV? It is certainly not far off of the reasoning used to build concentration camps. Very reminiscient of the extreme environmentalists who characterize humanity as an infestation, tantamount to mold or lichen overrunning the Earth.quote>

Not precisely. I said that fetuses, embryos, insects, amoebas, and bacteria are all non-sentient, and are in the same category in that respect, but have radically different structure. I did not say they are equivalent for the same thing, as was implied in your post.

Partial delivery, remember? If the head isn't crushed (compressed, they euphemistically call it) before crowning, the baby can indeed scream. They certainly struggle, or display other reactions to the trauma of having their skull punctured with scissors; that isn't disputed by either side.quote>

As I said, even an insect will struggle if its head is crushed. That is not an indicator of sentience.

Nobody here has suggested pigs or cows are human, they have stated that the human fetus is human This is biological  fact.

The argument is not about what is a human but which humans are persons.quote>

Not exactly. An embryo (which later grows into a fetus) is a growth of cells that will develop into a human if not interfered with. It is not a human, but rather something which will develop into a human. There is a crticial difference that some fail to see. Just as a mold spore is not mold, a human fetus is not human.

And I love ur graphs Patricius.quote>

The graphs were made by Duke87, not me.

We spend hundreds of billions of dollars to fight radical religious and political extremists all over the globe, I think it's about time we started to clean up our own house. The only difference between the "terrorists" and "extremists" in the Near and Middle East and here at home are the houses of worship they attend. Beyond that they all believe and do basically the same thing.quote>

The main difference between "extremists" and "terrorists" is that the "extremists" seek to stop what they consider to be  destruction (though I don't condone their actions), while the "terrorists" are trying to cause destruction. Trust me, they don't believe the same thing.quote>

Extremism is not the crime he committed: murder was the crime he committed. He is not a terrorist, because he did not attempt to commit an act of violence in order to instill terror into a civillian population. Relative to the American mainstream, he was an extremist, but at the core, he was a murderer. Nothing more, nothing less.

Are you saying that the USA does not have a legal time limit beyond which abortions would be illegal.quote>

To my knowledge, no.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Scott P. Roeder, is the suspect, expected to be charged monday.

http://www.kansascity.com/703/story/1226712.html?storylink=omni_popular