laying out of your subways

[trojan_47 2]

I feel like I have become pretty good at SC4 but one thing I am not sure on is the most productive mass transit. I have recently tried the on road mass transit in one of my cities, and it has grown exceptionally well.

I used bus-stop/subway combos and I made this city with a large amount of avenues for super low congstion. I have tried many layouts for my busstops and subways. 

I find that no matter what style I try, I always end up using grid style subway systems and busstops. 

Does anyone else know a better way?

I have tried several ways, and if you dont have several direct paths from your residents to your commercial, the subways lines will become congested (red on traffic data map).

Now I understand that using NAM (which I currently am) has increased the capacity values, and I have mine on the (hard) setting. Now does this change in capacity reflected in the traffic data map?

Should I be ignoring My red congested subway line that has 4888 trains going through it? The NAM traffic controller sets the capacity around 6000-7000 I believe for subways (could be wrong but too lazy to check). Should I be ignoring my congestion indicater when I am looking at my traffic data view because those lines still show in the red when they get over their default SC4 capacities.

[malefic 0]

Definitely hope you get an answer.  I am a little clueless on masstransit myself.  Sims seem very preferential about their mass transit.  I had number of red bus stops and I would plop another right beside it figuring they'd act like schools or hospitals and people would even out between the two but never such a thing occurred. 

[ArchangelMichael 51]

@trojan_47 -- It would be helpful to know exactly which traffic simulator you chose, but it sounds like you are using A or B.  The traffic congestion data views for both of these simulators are buggy, as discussed here.  The simulators created by z are, in my opinion, more realistic.  Also, remember that you need to run a city anywhere from one to six Sim years to allow the traffic to adjust to the new simulator.  When the traffic volume and commute time graphs have remained fairly level for at least one Sim year, the transition to the new simulator is considered complete.  The congestion view may also reflect some changes. 

Most of your Sims love using the subway because it is very fast (150 kph, I think.. or mph?).  It is therefore important that the subway lines leading to and from densely populated areas have a reasonable capacity.  The game default is only 5,000.  How many people in New York or Chicago do you think ride the subway every day?  I'm guessing many more than 5,000.  That's why I find z's simulators to be a more accurate representation of reality.

The following tip may have been brought up elsewhere, but I'll mention it anyway: It's also a good idea to place your subway stations one or two tiles away from the main tube.  In other words, where "X" represents the stations and "-----" represents the subway line, you can keep individual stations from being congested by the accumulated subway traffic like this:

                            X                                     X                                X

                            |                                       |                                 |

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Placing the stations directly on the line will cause the ones situated in the direction of the flow of traffic to become overwhelmed:

--------------------X----------------------------X------------------------X-------------

The second station will have its own traffic passing through it, plus the traffic from the first station; and the third station will have to deal with its own traffic, plus the traffic from the two previous stations on that route.  A grid pattern is fine (very efficient, in fact) as long as you remember this.  The same thing tends to happen with bus stops, so placing several right next to each other rarely helps.  The only cure is to increase their capacity.

The easiest way to switch out traffic simulators without re-installing NAM altogether is to download the MAC version, extract the simulator(s) you want to try into a separate folder, then replace the existing simulator with the new one.  Run the game to see if you like it and repeat as necessary.

[malefic 0]

Stupid trivia since you made the rhetorical question about people using the subway in New York.

I only know this because of a trip I took of New York in 2001.  The tour guide claimed up to 1 million people move in and out of Manhatten Island on any given workday.

I never confirmed his statement

[malefic 0]

also thanks for the input.  I tried the Z one once and I have red squares all over the place at intersections. It was very confusing

[ArchangelMichael 51]

@malefic -- Read the readme carefully.  z states that he made his traffic simulators more realistic in that, just like in reality, one would expect to see congestion at intersections.  At this thread, he describes his simulator in detail.  There's a ton of interesting info, but a point that is pertinent to this is that "The traffic simulators handle intersections by temporarily reducing network capacity.  By default, it's reduced by 30% in the intersection square, 20% one square away, and 10% two squares away."  You would think that all that congestion would lead to longer commute times and abandonment, but z found that by adjusting the pathfinding algorithm "the traffic simulator was now smart enough to figure out that by moving more Sims into cars, even at the expense of creating more traffic congestion, it could get them to work faster than by using [an] extensive mass transit system."  So, the red squares near intersections are perfectly normal and, moreover, are a clear indicator that his traffic simulator is working exactly as it should.

[malefic 0]

"By default, it's reduced by 30% in the intersection square, 20% one square away, and 10% two squares away."  

Yeah I read it but I freaked out because I did not figure 30% reduction would have caused all the red intersections hehe

thanks for letting me know thats normal though!

maybe I'll give it a second chance!

[trojan_47 2]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your replies, I have done alot of thinking about your layout suggestion ArchangelMichael and I will give that a shot. I have tried that before but i ended up having to grid teh network so big that it turned into a mess. Ill have to use better planning from teh start, or nix my who current networks to create the new layout.

Also malefic, the info about the 30-20-10% reduction is something I didn't even know before! I will certainly take stock into that when building my networks.

Also ArchAngel, to answer your question I am usin the A simulator, but I already have the other simulators including Z extracted in a seperate folder. Can I not simply remove the A and install the Z?

Also, with your theory in regards to "placing stations off of the main transit line" what would you reccomend for bus-stop placement ?(realizing that bus-sub combos make this question redundant, but just have to ask for normal play using normal bus-stops).

Thanks

[malefic 0]

Heh I was just quoting Michael's post so don't hand any thanks deserving of him my way hehe.  I am just a padawan here.

[ArchangelMichael 51]

@trojan_47 -- Yes, switching to a new traffic simulator is as easy as moving the old one out of the NAM folder and into a backup folder not located in Plugins, then moving or copying the new simulator into the NAM folder to replace the old one.

When not using a sub/bus combo station, the best place to position bus stops is across the street from subway stations, but this is not terribly important with any simulator by z.  The reason for this placement is that Sims only have to walk straight across one tile to switch transit types.  If you place the bus stop next to the subway station, the Sims will have to walk across two tiles, effectively making an immediate U-turn, thus increasing commute times.  The simulators by z, however, increase both the number of tiles Sims are willing to walk for a commute, as well as the speed at which they walk.  So, either placement would probably work fine and, thus, becomes dependent on your current layout.  If, for example, you have a nice big high-wealth skyscraper across the street from your subway station and a single family home beside the subway station, do not demolish the skyscraper just to put in a bus stop -- give that rinky-dink little shack a taste of the 'dozer and put your bus stop there.  If you are implementing my advice from another thread about boulevards, the subway stations and bus stops could be placed next to one another in the "service strip" between the roads that make the boulevard.  For non-boulevard placement, you may be interested in this set of bus stops by Simgoober.  He made them in various sizes (1x1, 1x2, & 1x3) and gave the multi-tile lots the properties of a park.  They're nice for filling in empty spaces behind the bus stop with something that benefits the neighborhood.  You can use ilive's reader and my instructions in the aforementioned thread to increase their capacities.  If those instructions were too quick and technical, I can provide screenshots and a step-by-step tutorial.

As a final note, I am working on a project that I originally intended to keep to myself because there are so many other transit lots already available, but I'll mention it here just to see if anyone who happens upon this thread might find this project useful.  I am making a modular set for bus stops, subway stations, parking lots, and eyecandy alleys that can be placed in single-tile strips between buildings, or used to build parking lots of any size and shape.  The set consists of functional pieces that actually perform the transit duties (parking, bus, subway, and combos), and non-functional filler lots to give the appearance of large parking lots or dark alleys like you might find between two buildings with adjacent rear facades -- the places where you find service doors, loading docks, employee parking, and emergency exits.  My goal is to mod the functional lots with capacities congruent with the most recent CAM and NAM traffic simulators because most existing transit lots have ridiculously low capacities.  When I make more progress, maybe I should start a LOT Project thread.  Opinions?

[k808j 0]

@Archangelmichael- Good idea to start a thread.  This way you'll have imput from the community(I didn't know about putting the subways directly on the tube would cause congestion thks.)

[trojan_47 2]

You sir are a SimCity MASTER! Thank you again for assuring me that I was always correct to place the bus-stops across the street from subways.

Also when you are talking about boulevards, do you mean 2 roads with a tile in between  (totaling 3 tiles width) where you place the transit stops in the center of the road?

And yes, great idea with the new stops with park benefits and parking-lot/alley pieces.

[ArchangelMichael 51]

That's exactly what I mean.  Here's a pic of a couple boulevards with the service strip filled with bus stops and plazas:

The bus stop/parking lots are a sneak peak of the project I mentioned.

[malefic 0]

@michael

oooo you gave me an idear.  instead of using avenues I can use opposing one way roads and make my own medians with 1xX parks mass trans and such.  It'll make my "avenues" 3 tiles in width but that could look pretty spif. My 4way intersections would look interesting but on a negative I'd lose round abouts though hmmmm

[ArchangelMichael 51]

Here are some suggestions for keeping roundabouts.  Drag a single 1x2 length of avenue from all four sides of the roundabout, then convert to one way roads and take a one-tile diagonal jog with either road to create your median:

Or, apply the technique above to just two sides of the roundabout, then drag OWRs two tiles apart off the other two sides.  But there's no sense in wasting space!  You're guaranteed to have some pretty decent traffic here, which makes this the perfect place for commercial zones next to your mass transit:

Oops -- I just noticed that the bus stop in the upper left didn't render before I snapped this pic.  That sometimes happens with semi-transparent models.  Double-tapping the "G" key takes care of it, but I didn't realize it was missing until just now.  It should look like the one on the other end of the boulevard, except backwards.  They are part of Andreas Roth's parking lots, and I am using them as a dependency in my lot project.  The pic in my previous post shows them better.

[malefic 0]

you sir are fantabulous.  Thanks for the visual and the idea!

[trojan_47 2]

Finally someone who knows his SC4. And thanks for the pics. And your transit-stops are awesome.

Can you show us a few pics of one of your better cities?

[ArchangelMichael 51]

Sure.  Just give me a day or so.  I have a new NAM and RHW update to install, plus a couple other new goodies to play with (Rural Roads, Single Track Rail, some new bridges).

Is there anything in particular you'd like to see?  Agriculture.  Suburbs.  Parks.  Downtown.  I'm not really into beaches or coastal stuff like harbors and ports.  Probably because:  A) I can't swim, and B) I'm a landlubber living in Ohio.  Yeah, I know Lake Erie is about an hour from where I live, but have you ever actually smelled it?

Regarding the transit stations, I should probably point out that the ones I put together are on the far ends of that boulevard strip.  The two next to the roundabout are by SimGoober.  The left one is a bus stop, the link for which can be found a couple posts above this one; and the right one is his urban subway in case you're interested.

[mykalberta 0]

Just a question.

Do workers in the Industrial area use mass transit to get to work? I have a subway line and bus stops near my industrial and none seem to be used at all.

If you connect different ctities via the subway, do they actually use it?

Or does it take 10 years of simming for it to show.

Thanks. I tried searching the forum and couldnt find anything about it.

Thanks.

[ArchangelMichael 51]

Short answers: Yes, and yes.

A few more details:

Sims will use mass transit to go to work in industrial areas.  Your mass transit system must present a more efficient route for them or they will not use it.  Also, make sure your Sims are of the proper education and wealth levels to work at these particular facilities.  If the subway or rail you want them to use takes a path "around Murphy's barn" (do people still say that?) rather than a direct shot towards the destinations where you intend for them to seek employment, they will just drive.  Even a slight deviation in the mass transit route between home and work will lead to little or no use of that network if it adds up to a longer commute time than driving.  You could, of course, bulldoze the roads that connect the residential areas to the industrial areas, thus forcing residents to use subway or some kind of rail.  With multiple paths to choose from, the simulator will always choose the quickest route, and it is programmed to never double back along the same route using the same transit type.  The only time you will see a Sim move in the opposite direction s/he just came from is when exiting a transit switch point (such as a bus stop) using a different form of transportation (e.g., walking).

You can make neighbor connections via subway and Sims will definitely use them.  The capacities and speed limits for all types of rail, including subway, are the highest of all the networks in every version of simulator z.  This makes them the best choice for out-of-town commuting.  In kilometers per hour: subway = 150; el-rail = 175; heavy rail = 200 for passengers, 150 for freight; monorail = 250.  Detailed information about the speed limits on the other networks and for other transit types can be found here.  Note that buses move slower than cars, especially on streets!

BTW, you guys can call me Mike

[trojan_47 2]

Is there anything in particular you'd like to see?  Agriculture.  Suburbs.  Parks.  Downtown.  .quote>

 

Anything you would be willing to show us. But yes all of the above. And I too was born and raised right next to lake Erie in SE Michigan but I do like beaches. Its why I moved out to CA. I would like to make beaches in SC4 but i rarley do because the land has to be perfectly even and straight to get them to work. I saw a beach mod out there but the image wasn't too impressive in my opinion. 

And Mike, every time I log on to check simtropolis, you have provided me with a wealth of information and entertainment. It is appreciated! Urban Subways!!!!!

[ArchangelMichael 51]

I'm sorry it took me so long to get back to you.  I had to really think about what I consider one of my "better cities."  I've only been playing SC4 since early July '08, and didn't even discover this site or the fact that the game required official updates until the end of August.  The first several months were spent just trying to make a city work without killing the budget or see everyone abandon.  Then I started downloading custom content and soon began studying the more technical aspects involving the reader so I could modify various things for my own purposes.  I've only recently noticed a lack of realism in my cities and your request for pictures really drove that home -- most of what I've built would never be built in real life and, as a result, tends to look rather silly.  Functional and efficient, but certainly not real.  My method for solving traffic woes was to begin with road boulevards as discussed (and depicted) above.  These would feed onto avenues, which in turn would lead the Sims to highways.  Bus traffic was through the roof, but if things got hairy, I'd lay subways.  I didn't get into rail until the January '09 NAM release.

So, I scoured my regions for something I wouldn't be too embarrassed to show the community, snapped some pics, then meshed them together into mosaics and posted a few in the appropriate threads.  Posting them here would be pretty far off-topic.  I will, however, post one in this thread simply because I don't know where else to put it and because it depicts a little of everything.  If you are on dial-up, you probably shouldn't click this thumbnail:

The other images I mentioned are suburbs and a couple parks.  I have no large downtown areas that are worth looking at right now.  Don't get me wrong -- I do have cities with lots of skyscrapers in them.  They just don't come anywhere near the qualifications for being one of my "better cities."   Once I start using more custom RCI content, I'll be able to post some more engaging snapshots.

Mike