Abortion

[Duke87 1,070]

So... yeah. How have we come this long without having a thread about this? Boggles the mind.

Anyways, abortion. We all know what it is, we all have... many and varied opinions on the matter. It's one of the most controversial issues in America(n politics) at the moment and has been for several years. Currently, the law stipulates that a woman "has the right to choose", that is, abortion is required to be legal - as per the supreme court decision, Roe v. Wade. Last year, a slight backpedaling on the matter occurred when the supreme court ruled that late-term abortions were not allowed.

As it stands, the availability of abortion varies, especially to minors. Some states require parental consent. Some merely require parental notification. Some require neither.

In general, it is conservatives who are against abortion (most schools of Christianity are against it) and would like to see it made illegal - but that cannot happen without the supreme court overturning its prior decision. Which makes the appointment of justices to the supreme court a major issue, since the political leaning of the justices could potentially sway the outcome of such a case that could do that. Roe v. Wade itself was a narrow 5-4 decision (5 justices in favor of the right to abortion, 4 against). Liberals tend to be the other side of the coin - in favor of keeping it legal. Some more right-wing groups have been known to hurl such epithets as "baby-killer" at such people. Some churches have refused to give communion to people who speak out about being "pro-choice" (in favor of the right to abortion). The group against it is known as "pro-life".

My opinion on the matter is thus:

Abortion is not a pretty thing. Especially when it occurs in the second trimester (early on, it's less messy and nasty). That said, it is a sort of... necessary evil, in a way, since, well, stuff happens. Women get raped. Condoms break. Oopses occur, and for those mistakes it's best to be able to have an abortion rather than have an unwanted child which you can't love and care for the same as if it was wanted. It's best to get it done as soon as possible, of course. The so-called "morning after pill" is the best way, but things don't always get caught that quickly. Sometimes wanted pregnancies need to be terminated for medical reasons. Ectopic pregancies and whatnot.

I understand that some people may have moral qualms about getting an abortion, or simply emotionally not wanting to... and that's fine. The beauty of "pro-choice" is that if you don't want one, you don't have to get one. But those who do want to retain the ability to.

And, of course, me being a Libertarian, this is a classic example of where I fndamentally believe it is not the government's place to pass moral judgment - it's best left up to the individual to choose to handle the matter as they see fit. To ban abortion is oppressive, as is to require it in any case(s).

Now then, your opinions, discussion, debate, whatever...

...just try and be mature about it and refrain from insults, personal attacks, put-downs, et cetera...

Remember, ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy. If you resort to attacking the person rather than the issue, you automatically lose the argument since you demonstrate inferior intelligence. ("discuss the issues, not each other"...)

Commence thread now.

[Explodingsims 3]

My opinion:

Make it illegal. There's adoption agencies out there, so you don't have to take care of it.

Abortions are fine if there's a valid medical reason for them, but just because it is "unwanted" is where it goes off the rails.

And I know, rape, broken condom, etc, etc, but if you get in bed with someone and don't wear a condom, then a pregnancy is what you deserve. It's simply paying for your actions.

(And before someone makes the "But then they'll risk their health with some of the more questionable methods of abortions" counterargument, that's exactly what they deserve if they still want to go get.")

So to me, there's no real need for abortion. Except in cases where where the baby will cause harm to the mother or itself.

EDIT: Oh yes, and the "It's the woman's choice" argument is pretty flimsy too. Remember, the woman also had the choice to:

1. Have Sex

2. Not use a condom.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Well, you knew I would pop in here sooner rather than later.

To me, abortion is the biggest stain on our nation... more shameful than slavery, or our treatment of the native population of the continent. This is an issue where many religious lines disappear, as Mormons, Catholics, and Protestants all agree that it's so hideous an affront to humanity that it needs to be fought on every level.

Now, I know that someone will come along and say "I would never tell a woman what she can't do with her body". But the law does it every day; if a pregnant woman does drugs, she can be prosecuted. If she rides a motorcycle, most states say she must wear a helmet. And besides, there's someone else's body involved, the unborn human's body. They have no legal rights in the current abortion-on-demand structure. America is all about defending the voiceless and defenseless, yet ignores the most extreme example of both.

Abortion is no better than the worship of Molech the Corrupter of ancient Canaan, where a stone idol was heated up red hot, and newborns thrown into its mouth. It's just faster nowadays with modern medicine.

To me, it's the most basic of all human rights issues.

And let's not ignore the industry that has grown up around it. Planned Parenthood has had several recent scandals where they conspired to cover up the rape of a minor so they could perform an abortion.  [link] [link] [link]

They receive public funds, but rake in an awful lot of cash for the blood they spill. Ron Paul pointed out that after delivering over 8000 babies, he had never seen a 'medically necessary abortion'. There are very few such situations, not nearly as many as abortion advocates want people to think. And, at last I had seen, 10,000 women per year in the US died as the result of 'safe legal' abortions.

The link between abortion and breast cancer was pretty clear, but such a conclusion was so politically unpopular that the advocates got it shot down as false. The studies showed a link between the odds of breast cancer and multiple abortions, that it was proportional. I never saw any real evidence that the study was flawed, it was just politically incorrect enough to spark outrage among friends of fetal murder.

[hamsterTK 93]

I think the urge and act is actually quite natural, based on the frank realities of life. When you find a baby bird on the sidewalk, it's there because mama pushed it out of the nest.

What nature of conscious does an early fetus have, beyond the hopes and anticipation that it's willing and loving mother has projected on it? In the absence of those things though, what is it?

[panthersimcity4 162]

Oh boy, I knew this would come up sometime soon.

Okay, well personally I'm against abortion in all forms. I used to support abortion only in certain cases but in recent times I've come to the conclusion that it should just be rid of all together. You can make it seem like it can be justifiable, but honestly, it's not right.

Except hold on...Societies have practiced forms of abortion since recorded history. Just how human is a fetus really?quote>

Well, societies have practiced murder and rape since the dawn of man. Putting abortion into that kind of context makes it look even more unjustifiable.

As for teenagers who get pregnant, tough cookies. If you make the decision, deal with the consequences.

[spa 970]

Duke: You missed one part of the practical argument, when abortion was illegal desperate women died or suffered life long injury at the hands of unlicensed doctors and worse. Abortion saves adult lives. It's very easy to judge and say they made their choice but that ignores the whole messy reality of life and death.

Personally, I would have a whole lot more respect for the pro-life crowd if they weren't predominately middle aged men telling women what they can and can't do (most the time that I have come across protests here in Canada it is always close to 2/3s men).

[ShortStraw 1]

Originally posted by: spa Duke: You missed one part of the practical argument, when abortion was illegal desperate women died or suffered life long injury at the hands of unlicensed doctors and worse. Abortion saves adult lives. It's very easy to judge and say they made their choice but that ignores the whole messy reality of life and death.

Personally, I would have a whole lot more respect for the pro-life crowd if they weren't predominately middle aged men telling women what they can and can't do (most the time that I have come across protests here in Canada it is always close to 2/3s men).quote>

I agree whole heartedly.  The "messy reality of life and death" makes abortions a necessity, for that reason alone they should be legal.

I don't think men should have an equal say in the matter either.  A potential father has a right to an opinion on the subject but the final decision to commit to the pregnancy must rest with the woman.

People who don't want to have children shouldn't have children.

People who choose abortion over having a child and putting it up for adoption, or who choose abortion for stupid, selfish or immoral reasons shouldn't be reproducing anyway.

Of course it should be legal if there's a medical risk to the mother.  Of Course it should.

Finally, I realize the irony of stating that men shouldn't have a right to an opinion on the subject and then promptly voicing my opinion on the subject (I'm a man).  My bad.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: spa Duke: You missed one part of the practical argument, when abortion was illegal desperate women died or suffered life long injury at the hands of unlicensed doctors and worse. Abortion saves adult lives. It's very easy to judge and say they made their choice but that ignores the whole messy reality of life and death.

Personally, I would have a whole lot more respect for the pro-life crowd if they weren't predominately middle aged men telling women what they can and can't do (most the time that I have come across protests here in Canada it is always close to 2/3s men).quote>

So, because callous, selfish women died committing an illegal act, we needed to make the act legal? That's like saying cops need to stop carrying guns so bank robbers won't die.

And men have a right to protest a wrong; after all, they were fetuses once, too. Just because they aren't women doesn't mean they can't express themselves. Of course, my wife is vehemently pro-life, just like her mother, and my mother. It's not a men-only view.

 I have noticed plenty of men at pro-abortion rallies, I believe it's because they are the type of cad that would be just fine letting a woman bury his obligation, and help him dodge responsibility for actions they shared. Escaping consequences is an age-old human dream for many.

[Follarch 326]

Just how human is a fetus really?quote>

Are you kidding me? This is just like what I heard about people saying that clones aren't human either. But I'm not here to talk about cloning. A Fetus IS human, no matter what stage of development it is in. It is human, it will be human, it always was human ever since conception.

I don't want to say that women who are forced to come to terms that they are pregnant when the don't want to be should be forced to have the baby, but I ALSO don't want to say they need to abort it altogether. A life is a life since conception took place. The woman should at least deliver the child and then give it up for adoption to a family that actually wants the baby. Even if she doesn't want it, who is she to say that she can take away a life when it can grow up to be a very good person with another family? All she has to do is wait nine months and then she can say goodbye. (a pretty fair consequence for not using protection huh?) Abortion is just wrong on so many levels, you get disturbed and sickened when you think about what happens... Even if you're a girl and your pregnancy is because of rape, you have to remember that the child had NOTHING to do with the rape, its an innocent soul brought to the world by un-innocent means. The least the girl could do would be to have the baby and then give it to a good family.

All in all...i would be very content if abortion was illegal.

[fukuda 351]

Originally posted by: Archean

Just how human is a fetus really?quote>

Are you kidding me? This is just like what I heard about people saying that clones aren't human either. But I'm not here to talk about cloning. A Fetus IS human, no matter what stage of development it is in. It is human, it will be human, it always was human ever since conception.quote>

Wrong question. Yes, it is a human, and no, it isn't a person (it's not the same thing).

[hym 358]

What exactly is the difference?

[Xyloxadoria 1,099]

Here is something that might help. Its a map showing what abortion laws exsist and where:

KEY:

Red-Abortion illegal in all circumstances or permitted only to save a woman's life.

PIink - Abortion legally permitted only to save a woman's life or protect her physical health.

Yellow-Abortion legally permitted only to protect mental health.

Blue-Abortion legally permitted on socioeconomic grounds

White-Abortion on request

Green- Abortion is legal.

Most of the countries where abortion is illegal is in South America, Africa Southern Asia and Austrarla. One of the reasons for that could be that the culture in thoose areas respect the family. The family plays a pivotal role in thier familys and killing their own babies would be something that they would never think of doing. The other main reason against abortion is relgion, which tells you it is wrong. Since religion is more widespread, and it usally doesnt play a role in what goverments do its harder to use it as a determing factor in laws.

[fukuda 351]

Hym: A human being is multicellular mammal that usually contains a person, a person (from persona, means mask) is a neural build which is sentient, has feelings and knows its own existance. There are humans that haven't developed a person yet (foetuses), and others that have lost it (brain death). Even if their body still keeps working, the human is alive, the person disappeared.

Xyloxadoria: Abortion is fully legal in some spanish states, depends on how catholic is the state

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

 I have noticed plenty of men at pro-abortion rallies, I believe it's because they are the type of cad that would be just fine letting a woman bury his obligation, and help him dodge responsibility for actions they shared. Escaping consequences is an age-old human dream for many.quote>

You raise two interesting points.  First, there are very few people who are "pro-abortion".  That implies that they are actively encouraging women to have abortions which is an entirely different activity than letting her make the choice for herself.

Second, men can, and do, dodge their responsibility and obligation for the children they help create.    That can be a major factor in the decisions the women make.

 

Originally posted by: ShortStraw

Finally, I realize the irony of stating that men shouldn't have a right to an opinion on the subject and then promptly voicing my opinion on the subject (I'm a man).  My bad.quote>

Everyone has the right to an opinion.  I do question men's "right" to demand that women go through a process that the men themselves will never have to face.

Originally posted by: Archean

 All she has to do is wait nine months and then she can say goodbye. quote>

 

That's "all" she has to do?   Pregnancy is not a trivial thing.  It is a complex, physically dangerous process that changes her body and her life forever.

 

Giving a baby up for adoption is not the same as saying goodbye.   Adoptees and biological parents of adoptees go through a lot during their lives.  It's not like the adoption is the end of it.

On the other hand, it's not like abortion is the end of it either.

 

Let's not act as though these issues are trivial. 

 

 

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: ShortStraw

Finally, I realize the irony of stating that men shouldn't have a right to an opinion on the subject and then promptly voicing my opinion on the subject (I'm a man).  My bad.quote>

Everyone has the right to an opinion.  I do question men's "right" to demand that women go through a process that the men themselves will never have to face.quote>

Have a question for you (since you're a women, you're the ideal person to ask).  Is it fair that a man is legally obligated to provide for his child, yet often has no say in the matter if the mother chooses to abort the developing baby against the father's wishes?

[belfastuniguy 18]

I'm pro-choice. I do not like abortion but I don't and no-one else has the right to tell women what they can and cannot do. Its not an easy decision and its not a plesant experience however I fully support the decision of the women and their partners on the issue, whether it be to abort the foetus or keep it.

I completely agree with the Duke, the government is not there to uphold religious moral or pass judgement on its people.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Explodingsims

 Remember, the woman also had the choice to:

1. Have Sex

2. Not use a condom.quote>

 

Not necessarily.  Most of the people here live in societies where that is true.  However, in many places, a woman who says no or insists that the man uses a condom is likely to find herself without food next week. 

It is an issue of economic dependence.   And, let's be honest:  most men are not going to tolerate a lack of sex and many will not tolerate using a condom all the time.

In many cases, the "choice" a woman has, even in the societies people here live in, is to do things the way he wants them done or go it alone as a single mother.   Which might help explain the number of single mothers on the planet.

Originally posted by: ShortStraw

People who don't want to have children shouldn't have children.quote>

 

Generally speaking, women are pretty good judges as to whether they would make a good mother or not.   If a woman wants to have an abortion, it's a pretty good indication that she isn't ready for parenthood. 

In the ideal world, women who wanted to get pregnant would be able to do so (without all of the fertility drug hoops people jump through) and women who didn't want to get pregnant wouldn't get pregnant.  Unfortunately, we don't live in that world.   Human fertility does not have an on/off switch.   Neither does the human sex drive.

Originally posted by: hym

Have a question for you (since you're a women, you're the ideal person to ask).  Is it fair that a man is legally obligated to provide for his child, yet often has no say in the matter if the mother chooses to abort the developing baby against the father's wishes?quote>

 

Is it fair?  No, it's not fair.  But what are the other options?

 

Taking it a piece at a time, I think it's totally fair that a man is legally obligated to provide for his child.  If you are going to bring a child into the world, you should be expected to step up to the plate and support it.  To do less is dumping his responsibilities on the rest of the world and the rest of world already has enough problems.

Is it fair that a mother can chose have an abortion against the father's wishes?  I know that can be very painful for the father.  (and, yes, I do know men in this exact situation.)    But the alternative, giving him the right to insist she goes through with the pregnancy, is essentially turning her into chattel.   I know people do not like that term but, when Person A has control over Person B's body, what other word applies?

[hym 358]

If someone's going to get screwed over one way or another, it seems like providing an option for the judge to make the decision would be a less unfair way to handle the issue.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: hym

If someone's going to get screwed over one way or another, it seems like providing an option for the judge to make the decision would be a less unfair way to handle the issue.quote>

 

Lovely thought but, by the time it would get to the top of court docket, it will be a moot point.

 

Another interesting thing to note is that surveys show that most Americans support the right to chose within the first three months of pregnancy but not in the later months.  But the extremists at both ends keep talking about how it shouldn't happen at all or shouldn't be restricted at all.

 

[panthersimcity4 162]

Here is something that might help. Its a map showing what abortion laws exsist and where: quote>

Heh, it seems Poland is the only nation in Europe in which abortion is illegal. Poland is probably the last remaining "conservative" country in Europe, most other nations in Europe are pretty liberal. I was suprised that abortion is legal in Italy and Lithuania, I always thought that those nations were pretty conservative.

Everyone has the right to an opinion.  I do question men's "right" to demand that women go through a process that the men themselves will never have to face.quote>

Well, using that argument, women wouldn't be allowed to tell men to do alot of things...

Like (I believe manticorefan) said, we're legally allowed to tell women not to smoke and snort cocaine while they're pregnant...

Anyways yeah... I think I'll leave this thread for a while before I get grouchy.

[hawkpride147 1]

i presonally agree with former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani's position on the subject. while i believe a fetus is just as human as someone in a coma, i do not believe it is government's place to regulate abortion in the sense of legal vs. not legal. Giuliani believes the government's responsibility is to educate the nation about it and affect the act through affecting culture...so i am pro-choice in that sense. but i absolutely do not agree with abortion. for those who believe the fetus is not human until the 3rd trimester, i wish i had the chance to introduce you to a little girl i know named madeline matheny. she was born 5-5 1/2 months early...well within the 2nd trimester. she is now a fully functioning 4th grader with no developmental problems other than her being small for her age...but once we're adults, we all come in different shapes and sizes so who will really know? i only have my beliefs to argue that 1st term abortion is bad, but i have proof that 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions are aborting living human beings.

i do however believe abortion is ok in regards to the health of the woman. if not aborting the child will kill the woman, then ok, but if she can carry it to term and not die, then i don't think it's cool

the other case i believe abortion could be ok is rape. i'm not as enthusiastic though, because it is not the person's fault that they got raped...so there should be no shame. and there are plenty of families who want to adopt. why not let them have the child you don't want.

explodingsims said it best for all but the 2 cases i made exceptions for:

"Oh yes, and the "It's the woman's choice" argument is pretty flimsy too. Remember, the woman also had the choice to:

1. Have Sex

2. Not use a condom."

there's my 50 cents...

[belfastuniguy 18]

the other case i believe abortion could be ok is rape. i'm not as enthusiastic though, because it is not the person's fault that they got raped...so there should be no shame. and there are plenty of families who want to adopt. why not let them have the child you don't want. quote>

Yeah....nothing wrong at all.

Lets make you into a woman, have a man or group of men rape and abuse you...hell maybe even have that man as your husband or father.. (YES that does happen)

Then lets expect you to carry it for 9 months and then give birth to it just to hand it to some poor childless couple wanting to adopt...give me break. If you think that's alright then I am left with no option but to question your logic.

[Duke87 1,070]

I suppose others may think differently, but personally I'd prefer abortion to adoption, for two key reasons:

1) There are a lot of orphans, foster kids, etc. out there for whom finding guardians is a problem. As it is, there are more children up for adoption than people looking to adopt them. So having the baby and then putting it up for adoption only makes that worse.

2) Abortion gives you something adoption does not: psychological closure. You abort, it's over and done with, and that's that. You adopt, and you know that your child is out there somewhere, but you don't know where they are or how they're doing. And you'll probably never know. For me, that not knowing would be an endless emotional torture, whereas the abortion would be relatively quick and easy to get over.

The issue of it saving you months of pregnancy exists, too, but it's less of an issue, at least how I see it. A woman might see differently, I'd imagine.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: Duke87 whereas the abortion would be relatively quick and easy to get over.

quote>

Having known (at least) 2 women who have had them, I can promise you it is no such thing. The pyschological trauma in both women lasted for years, manifested by profound depression, nightmares, flashbacks, and even auditory hallucinations of crying babies. The boyfriend of one of them was driven to attempt suicide by the loss of his child without his consent or foreknowledge.

The only sites that deny such a thing are pro-abortion organizations, who are just protecting their reason d'etre, and their bread-and-butter. Everyone else acknowledges that it is a real issue.

I'm surprised that you did no research before making that statement, seeing as how you demand source citations from others on other subjects. Not trying to be an ass, but I had to call you on it.

[spa 970]

Originally posted by: hym

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: ShortStraw

Finally, I realize the irony of stating that men shouldn't have a right to an opinion on the subject and then promptly voicing my opinion on the subject (I'm a man).  My bad.quote>

Everyone has the right to an opinion.  I do question men's "right" to demand that women go through a process that the men themselves will never have to face.quote>

Have a question for you (since you're a women, you're the ideal person to ask).  Is it fair that a man is legally obligated to provide for his child, yet often has no say in the matter if the mother chooses to abort the developing baby against the father's wishes?quote>

 

The man makes his choice when he decides to have sex. After that it's someone else body. The two are completely different.

[ShortStraw 1]

There's something inherently messed up about considering parenthood to be a "consequence" of having unprotected sex.

Some men might be seriously upset by losing a potential shot at fatherhood because the woman they knocked up chose to abort.  I feel a twinge of sympathy for those few men but I believe most men are just not seriously hurt by a womans choice to abort.   The sad fact is, the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy are trivial for a man compared to what a woman faces in dealing with an unwanted pregnancy.  It's certainly poor behavior but a man has the option to just walk away from the whole mess and not look back.   I can't help but think that if men could also get pregnant there wouldnt even be a debate over whether or not abortion should be a legal option.   It would likely be the most common and readily acceptable way of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy.

To me, this isn't a question of morals or ethics.  The moral and ethical considerations tend to take care of themselves as far as I can see.  If a basically good person has an abortion for the wrong reasons then that person pays in the way that Manticorefan pointed out.  Moral debt is resolved.   And if some sociopath is regularly having unprotected sex and getting abortions just to avoid the inconvenience of pregnancy and has no moral qualms about that whatsoever, well, thank goodness she ain't contributing to the gene pool.

Abortion should be legal for practical reasons having to do with the physical health and well being of society in general.  I have no problem with cultural groups demonizing abortion.  There should be a widespread effort from society to encourage proper ethical and moral behavior.  But this is just not something I feel should be handled by the judicial system.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Having known (at least) 2 women who have had them, I can promise you it is no such thing. The pyschological trauma in both women lasted for years, manifested by profound depression, nightmares, flashbacks, and even auditory hallucinations of crying babies. The boyfriend of one of them was driven to attempt suicide by the loss of his child without his consent or foreknowledge.

The only sites that deny such a thing are pro-abortion organizations, who are just protecting their reason d'etre, and their bread-and-butter. Everyone else acknowledges that it is a real issue.

I'm surprised that you did no research before making that statement, seeing as how you demand source citations from others on other subjects. Not trying to be an ass, but I had to call you on it.quote>

Again Manticore, as in previous debates, you have using a a couple of individuals and attempting to project their experiences onto all women that have abortions and the effect on them and their partners/family. I know some people that have had abortions yet they do not suffer immense depression or harbour suicidal tendencies. However I would not use their experiences as a basis for a generalised and sweeping statement.

If you have evidence of such situations then please provide it, though, again, as in previous debates when asked for such evidence you go rather silent. Rather telling.

[craizedmanic 0]

To take a life is murder. It is that clear. To many people now days have to create a grey area to make themselves feel ok with the decision they chose to make. By doing this they get other people to become blinded from the truth. It amazes me that when women make theirselves lose their child it is aganist the law. If a man walks up to the women and does something to cause her to lose it also aganist the law. If she has the child and throws it away or abandons the child then it is neglect or murder. If a doctor preforms the abortion or partial brith then everything is fine and dandy. How can the exact same things have 2 different outlooks from the law.  If in one case it is a human life then it has to be a human life all the way around. If you want a choice then choose not to have sex. Be an adult.  If your 12, 13, 15, etc. then worry more about being a kid and les about being an adult. The truth is this will never be sovled as long as their are people you choose not to take  responcibility of their actions. I think it is as simple as this old saying. If you play you pay. Think about outcomes before you make a decisions. After all if you get hooked on drugs is it your fault or the person that got you hooked.  YOURS you made the choice.

[fukuda 351]

while i believe a fetus is just as human as someone in a coma,quote>

Well, someone in a coma still has its perosnality, dormant, but it usually hasn't been destroyed, he can get up (or not). A fetus hasn't a dormant personality, it has none, yet.

personality is not the correct term but it's the easier one to use here*

for those who believe the fetus is not human until the 3rd trimesterquote>

Well, that's not a fetus, that's a baby to begin with. So what I said before is not applied in this case.

Having known (at least) 2 women who have had them, I can promise you it is no such thing. The pyschological trauma in both women lasted for years, manifested by profound depression, nightmares, flashbacks, and even auditory hallucinations of crying babies. The boyfriend of one of them was driven to attempt suicide by the loss of his child without his consent or foreknowledge.quote>

As any statement regarding the effect of a given thing over a large populations, only the statistics are valid, can we have them, please?

[hawkpride147 1]

Originally posted by: fukuda Well, that's not a fetus, that's a baby to begin with. So what I said before is not applied in this case.quote>

thus was the point...people (not anyone specific) argue that it isn't a baby until a certain point, but the point is we can not definitively determine when that point is...as the little girl i know proves, it could be at 3 and a half months...and definitely at 4...i don't know anyone who had a premature baby before that, but i also don't know anyone with a million dollars...but not having seen or not knowing someone who has experienced one of those, does not mean they don't exist or are not possible. lots of stuff is possible...especially in this age with all the technology we have.