American Politics

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Originally posted by: Meg

There is a group of people who so hate how the election turned out that they will deny the reality of it until the end. quote>

and why is that, exactly?

quote>

It's a sort of psychological vindication. If you feel really strongly that Obama doesn't deserve to be president, there is comfort to be had in believing that his election was illegitmate.

It also fits right into the classic delusions of persecution that are typical of conspiracy theorists. Our government is out to get us, so they filmed fake moon landings in a Hollywood studio, they launched misiles disguised as planes at the World Trade Center, they intentionally blew up Deepwater Horizon, etc. More severe cases get diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenia.

And beyond that, there is a sort of satisfaction in being able to tell yourself that everyone else is believing lies but you're smart and you have it all figured out.

I suppose you could sum it up as a falacy of taking the general statement "things aren't always what they seem" (true) and assuming that in a specific case "this isn't what it seems" (not always true).

quote>

Dont forget they also delayed cleaning up the oil in the gulf to ruin the fishing industry in the gulf, So we would  have to buy fish from Cuba.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

yup, just wild theories and hoaxes... except, where is the real, genuine document? Making inferences does not a proof make. I can produce mine, I expect the same. For a lot of people, it's easier to dismiss others than deal with the meat of the problem. That is, your Chief Executive has never produced proof of eligibility, and has has gone to court to keep it that way. Say what you will about me, you are every bit as distracted as you are supposed to be. The Democratic Party thanks you for playing along.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Dont forget they also delayed cleaning up the oil in the gulf to ruin the fishing industry in the gulf, So we would  have to buy fish from Cuba.

quote>

What makes you think the Cuban fishery is any better off?  You have made them a non-place.

The Canadian fishery is enjoying an upsurge, especially in Malpeque Oysters.

And frankly, ladies and gentlement, it is far to late to speculate as to whether Obama is a "real" American.  It doesn't matter if he was born in Minsk or Pinsk, if he looks like a lobster and acts like one, he must be one, eh?

[morriswalters 16]

You'll have your chance to vote your wishes in the next election.  Right now your just kicking a dead dog.  All the i's were dotted , all the t's were crossed.  If there was a conspiracy, then it was successful.

[Wrightguy0 40]

If i Recall there was a fair amount of genuine suspicion surrounding the results of the 2000 election, most of the people stopped beating the dead horse a few months later about the recount, and no they won't even look at you for a nomination if you don't have a US Birth Certificate. and What's so bad about Obama having an Islamic Heritage? that's just a tad Narcissistic to expect an elected official to have the same religion as you.

there are so many things here that are absolutely petty in nature, nit pickers just love to pick nits over things most people don't care about. :\

[Duke87 1,070]

So, Arizona's law is back in the news again. A federal court has issued an injunction against a few of the law's provisions. At least for now, there will be no requiring officers to investigate immigration status, requiring people to carry proof of legal residence, or prohibiting illegal immigrants from being employed. Full court case is still pending.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: A Nonny Moose

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Don't forget they also delayed cleaning up the oil in the gulf to ruin the fishing industry in the gulf, So we would  have to buy fish from Cuba.

quote>

What makes you think the Cuban fishery is any better off?  You have made them a non-place.quote>

Nothing i just made all that up. Makes as much sense as any of these other conspiracies.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Well, there is nothing bogus about the increase in exports to the U.S. from our fisheries.

I suspect that the Cuban fishery is as bad or worse off than the gulf coast.  Since you don't trade with them, its all the more for us.  We don't care if Fidel or Raul or whoever is the boss down there is Red, white or blue.  Red is so passée these days.  So they are Marxists, so what?  No God-fearing American who recites the pledge of allegiance in his sleep every night is going to be affected by a few wierdos from some island.

While we are not particularly happy about what has happened to the fishing brotherhood in the gulf, neither will we be reluctant to profit from their misfortune.  In the fisheries market, its "Up yours, Jack, I'm inboard."

[Easy Bakes 253]

Bump dity bump

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Originally posted by: manticorefan

yup, just wild theories and hoaxes... except, where is the real, genuine document? Making inferences does not a proof make. I can produce mine, I expect the same. For a lot of people, it's easier to dismiss others than deal with the meat of the problem. That is, your Chief Executive has never produced proof of eligibility, and has has gone to court to keep it that way. Say what you will about me, you are every bit as distracted as you are supposed to be. The Democratic Party thanks you for playing along.quote>

Officially confirmed by the State of Hawaii.  Multiple times.

Originally posted by: Duke87

So, Arizona's law is back in the news again. A federal court has issued an injunction against a few of the law's provisions. At least for now, there will be no requiring officers to investigate immigration status, requiring people to carry proof of legal residence, or prohibiting illegal immigrants from being employed. Full court case is still pending.

quote>

Good.  Personally, I do not support the AZ Immigration Law.  I think that immigration is a definite issue, but I do not think that this is the way to rectify it.

Barbarossaquote>

Whats bad about requireing immigrants to carry identification or proof of leagality?

Isnt that already required by federal law for visitors and forgien residents?

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Whats bad about requireing immigrants to carry identification or proof of leagality?

Isnt that already required by federal law for visitors and forgien residents?quote>

It certainly isn't required for ordinary citizens.

The biggest problem here, really, isn't anything that the law says. The problem is that since overwhelmingly most illegal immigrants come from Latin America, the issue ends up getting looked at as a racial one (even though it really isn't). This makes any attempts to do anything with regards to the matter touchy... which is a big part of why all these years not much has been done. It's a high-voltage third rail. 

Then, Arizona got fed up with having to deal with the Mexican drug gangs and all the crime they bring over the border with them and decided to take matters into their own hands. Naturally, there have been some very strong opinions spoken against this (though more people than not support the law).

The unfortunate reality, though, is that the status quo on immigration is what this country actually wants. There is a considerable demand out there for black market labor. If all the undocumented workers were made to go home, it would cut into the profit margins of the people who employ them because they'd have to hire legal residents, pay them more, and treat them better. If they all were made "legal", they would lose what makes them special and would have a harder time finding jobs.

[Meg 368]

A point that many people seem to miss: if anyone can be asked about their immigration status, then we all need to carry papers documenting our citizenship.

If I went to Arizona and some police officer decided I look suspicious, he could detain me until I provide proof of residency or citizenship. I do have a DC birth certificate and a US passport but I don't normally carry them with me.

It looks like I may have to start doing so. or should I figure no one is going to ask me because I am (in the words of a friend) whiter than Casper?

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: Meg

A point that many people seem to miss: if anyone can be asked about their immigration status, then we all need to carry papers documenting our citizenship.

If I went to Arizona and some police officer decided I look suspicious, he could detain me until I provide proof of residency or citizenship. I do have a DC birth certificate and a US passport but I don't normally carry them with me.

It looks like I may have to start doing so. or should I figure no one is going to ask me because I am (in the words of a friend) whiter than Casper?quote>

but you do have a drivers licience.And  can produce your other documents

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

but you do have a drivers licience. quote>

so what?  the hijackers had driver's licenses

And  can produce your other documentsquote>

Sure.  They are here in Maryland.  and if I'm being detained in Arizona, I might be there a while until it gets sorted out.

[Duke87 1,070]

As far as I'm aware, all 50 states require some sort of proof of legal residence in order to issue driver's license (New York had a proposal to change that several years back, but it failed). So a valid driver's license (or non-driver ID) is thus, logically, proof of legal residence.

That doesn't cover minors not old enough to drive, though...

[Odainsaker 2,136]

Time to pop in the dvd of "Born in East L.A." Cheech Marin is a not-so-smart citizen who ends up in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong accent, and as he had no identification on him at that moment, he is suspected of being an illegal Mexican immigrant criminal, swiftly processed by a disbelieving and overworked bureaucracy, and soon deported to Tijuana. Then comes the odyssey of a mistakenly deported citizen trying to get back into the U.S., hehehe. I think "A Million to Juan" plays out similarly. Sadly, the first movie is from 1987...we have not advanced on this issue since the Reagan Era!

Of course, Arizona has always been somewhat touchy given its tense border location. My dad gets stopped there everytime when travelling from California, probably because he looks sufficiently ethnic--dark skinned Pacific Islander! Actually, my Japanese-Caucasian friend tells me the same happens to him...stopped everytime on the highway when passing through regardless of any other reckless drivers on the road, so that he can be thoroughly checked out, even if it is his Caucasian wife that is safely driving. Given my exotic looks and oddball accent--these Texans say it sounds like a mix of British/Hawaiian/German!!!--I think I will just give Arizona a wide berth when travelling. Sorry guys, but that is the climate being created even before the legal circus, which itself is being done in no small part by opportunist politicians out cynically stoking their base and seeking the national spotlight.

Once again the pendulum is swinging back to militarizing the border with the national guard, the U.S. military, and even private vigilante militias, lest the illegals, the drug lords, and the smugglers get us. But we have to be careful in what we do...in Texas, we need only look to 1997 when the Clinton Administration tried a test progam of using Marines in the border anti-drug surveillance program. One such unit stalked and mistakenly shot to death an 18-year-old U.S. high school student, Ezequiel Hernandez, and then attempted to cover up the incident. The program had to be quietly wound down, as it was found troops simply do not have the necessary police civil training to properly operate when dealing with encounters with citizens.

That is one of my fears...that innocent, law-abiding citizens will soon find themselves mistakenly caught up in the blunt, politically-driven crackdown on illegal immigration and illegal immigrant crime. "Slaughter Ten Thousand Erroneously Rather Than Let One Guilty Escape!" I don't want to be the sacrifice because of my accent so that other citizens can feel better about themselves, and as an equal citizen, I should not have to be. Sure, we won't technically call it racial profiling, but, c'mon, we've been there..."I'm not technically telling you to cut corners or violate workplace safety or billing procedures, but we must have you do this garguantuan project with an overworked skeleton staff and within this unreasonably critical timeframe, and we know you will do what is necessary to have it done using whatever 'creative devices' you have, of which we don't really want to know. Get it done, doing whatever it takes or you will be reprimanded, but remember, we are technically not telling you to do anything improper." It's a legalese setup, and we are falling for it.

Of course, this is an era of an economic downturn, and in previous such eras immigrant populations along the Mexican border, legal or not, were typical targetted as a way of freeing up jobs for other favored groups. It is hard to know how many U.S. citizens of Mexican-descent were improperly deported during the hysteria of the Great Depression, but few politican demogogues cared at the time so long as they were placating their bases.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Achtung!  Papers please!

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Yes, Barbarossa, that is the same one that failed testing by forensic examiners, who went through step-by-step and found not only software image-manipulation watermarks, but also determined the manipulation was performed on an iMac, not a PC.  I notice no substantive answers for the Elections Clerk, nor for the non-existent hospital records. Since WND is so hated (but CNBC gets a pass with other Leftist organizations), but has brought up other very good unanswered points..  to wit:

NEW YORK – Two private investigators working independently are asking why President Obama is using a Social Security number set aside for applicants in Connecticut while there is no record he ever had a mailing address in the state. 

In addition, the records indicate the number was issued between 1977 and 1979, yet Obama's earliest employment reportedly was in 1975 at a Baskin-Robbins ice-cream shop in Oahu, Hawaii. 

WND has copies of affidavits filed separately in a presidential eligibility lawsuit in the U.S. District Court of the District of Columbia by Ohio licensed private investigator Susan Daniels and Colorado private investigator John N. Sampson. 

The investigators believe Obama needs to explain why he is using a Social Security number reserved for Connecticut applicants that was issued at a date later than he is known to have held employment. 

The Social Security website confirms the first three numbers in his ID are reserved for applicants with Connecticut addresses, 040-049. 

"Since 1973, Social Security numbers have been issued by our central office," the Social Security website explains. "The first three (3) digits of a person's social security number are determined by the ZIP code of the mailing address shown on the application for a social security number." 

The question is being raised amid speculation about the president's history fueled by an extraordinary lack of public documentation. Along with his original birth certificate, Obama also has not released educational records, scholarly articles, passport documents, medical records, papers from his service in the Illinois state Senate, Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism records and adoption papers. 

Robert Siciliano, president and CEO of IDTheftSecurity.com and a nationally recognized expert on identity theft, agrees the Social Security number should be questioned. 

"I know Social Security numbers have been issued to people in states where they don't live, but there's usually a good reason the person applied for a Social Security number in a different state," Siciliano told WND. 

WND asked Siciliano whether he thought the question was one the White House should answer. 

"Yes," he replied. "In the case of President Obama, I really don't know what the good reason would be that he has a Social Security number issued in Connecticut when we know he was a resident of Hawaii." 

Siciliano is a frequent expert guest on identify theft on cable television networks, including CNN, CNBC and the Fox News Channel. 

Daniels and Sampson each used a different database showing Obama is using a Social Security number beginning with 042. 

WND has further confirmed that the Social Security number in question links to Obama in the online records maintained by the Selective Service System. Inserting the Social Security number, his birth date and his last name produces a valid Selective Service number. 

To verify the number was issued by the Social Security Administration for applicants in Connecticut, Daniels used a Social Security number verification database. She found that the numbers immediately before and immediately after Obama's were issued to Connecticut applicants between the years 1977 and 1979. 

"There is obviously a case of fraud going on here," Daniels maintained. "In 15 years of having a private investigator's license in Ohio, I've never seen the Social Security Administration make a mistake of issuing a Connecticut Social Security number to a person who lived in Hawaii. There is no family connection that would appear to explain the anomaly." 

Does the Social Security Administration ever re-issue Social Security numbers? 

"Never," Daniels said. "It's against the law for a person to have a re-issued or second Social Security number issued." 

Daniels said she is "staking my reputation on a conclusion that Obama's use of this Social Security number is fraudulent." 

There is no indication in the limited background documentation released by the Obama 2008 presidential campaign or by the White House to establish that Obama ever lived in Connecticut. 

Nor is there any suggestion in Obama's autobiography, "Dreams from My Father," that he ever had a Connecticut address. 

Also, nothing can be found in the public record that indicates Obama visited Connecticut during his high-school years. 

Sampson's affidavit specifies that as a result of his formal training as an immigration officer and his 27-year career in professional law enforcement, "it is my knowledge and belief that Social Security numbers can only be applied for in the state in which the applicant habitually resides and has their official residence." 

Daniels told WND she believes Obama had a different Social Security number when he worked as a teenager in Hawaii prior to 1977. 

"I doubt this is President Obama's originally issued Social Security number," she told WND. "Obama has a work history in Hawaii before he left the islands to attend college at Occidental College in California, so he must have originally been issued a Social Security number in Hawaii." 

The published record available about Obama indicates his first job as a teenager in Hawaii was at a Baskin-Robbins in the Makiki neighborhood on Oahu. USA Today reported the ice-cream shop still was in operation one year after Obama's inauguration. 

Politifact.com, a website typically supportive of Obama, claims he worked at the Baskin-Robbins in 1975 or 1976, prior to the issuance of the number in question.

"It is a crime to use more than one Social Security number, and Barack Obama had to have a previous Social Security number to have worked at Baskin-Robbins," she insisted. "Under current law, a person is not permitted to use more than one Social Security number in a lifetime." 

Another anomaly in the law enforcement databases searched by Daniels and Sampson is that the date 1890 shows up in the field indicating the birth of the number holder, along with Obama's birth date of 08/04/1961. A third date listed is 04/08/1961, which appears to be a transposition of Obama's birth date in an international format, with the day before the month. 

Daniels disclosed to WND the name of the database she searched and produced a computer screen copy of the page that listed 1890 as a date associated with the 042 Social Security number. 

Daniels said she can't be sure if the 1890 figure has any significance. But she said it appears the number Obama is using was previously issued by the Social Security Administration. 

After an extensive check of the proprietary databases she uses as a licensed private investigator, Daniels determined that the first occurrence of Obama's association with the number was in 1986 in Chicago. 

Daniels assumes, but cannot prove, that Obama took on a previously issued Social Security number that had gone dormant due to the death of the original holder. 

Daniels has been a licensed private investigator in Ohio since 1995. Sampson formed his private investigations firm, CSI Consulting and Investigations, in 2008. He previously worked as a deportations law enforcement officer with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. 

The Daniels and Sampson affidavits were originally recorded by attorney Orly Taitz in an eligibility case against Obama last year. 

[Meg 368]

Per standard procedure, please provide a link when quoting an article. We must give credit to the author or copyright people tend to get cranky.

[confused04 14]

I'm gonna ignore the ridiculous birther movement to a more practical issue....

Today, three years ago, at 6:05 Central Daylight time.... Minneapolis, Minnesota experienced one of its largest modern disasters. On August 1, 2007, the I-35W bridge collapsed killing 13 people as well as injuring approximately 145. Even with the opening of the new bridge and a lot of new investments in infrastructure, many of us still can't help to remember that awful day and its ramification on US politics. The new bridge, although beautiful, is still just a scab over what occurred that day. I myself have not incurred and personal loss, but I know that some have. We all have accepted the new reality that is the post-collapse era, but it still affects us in many ways. We have lost some companies in the transportation chaos, as well as changed our outlook on mass transit. This issue as pushed us into a very mass-transit oriented environment, but there are many metros that have not accepted such a role in planning.

I can remember that day very specifically and I hope that no one ever has to go through what we did. I hope that everyone takes this day seriously, not because of its penetration into the news, but because of its ramifications and its consequences on American society.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: confused04

I'm gonna ignore the ridiculous birther movement to a more practical issue.... quote>

well sure, bridges beat answers any day in political discussions.

The article I cite is from WorldNetDaily, a site which has its flaws. I see adjectives are being used in place of genuine proof of anything by many, but no significant fact-based rebuttal. I think the predilection for sand-oriented head burial reflects even more poorly on the American people than the fact that they got suckered. There is help, just a click away...

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: confused04

On August 1, 2007, the I-35W bridge collapsed {...} We have lost some companies in the transportation chaos, as well as changed our outlook on mass transit. This issue as pushed us into a very mass-transit oriented environment, but there are many metros that have not accepted such a role in planning.quote>

Now there's an ideological stretch if I ever saw one. The 35W bridge collapsed because it was poorly designed and undermaintained, and that has nothing to do with the fact that it carried a freeway. It could have just as easily happened to a rail bridge.

Not that mass transit is a bad thing, but come on now.

Originally posted by: manticorefan

quote>

Very nice.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Did your local contractor profiteer by using sub-standard materials in a public works project?  Don't be surprised, everybody does it if they can get away with it.  COGS (Contracting on Government Service) guarantees to tie up the case in litigation until your grandchildren have grandchildren, at which point a motion for dismissal due to failure of due process will usually be granted.

Join COGS, today!  Call 888-555-COGS.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: confused04

I can remember that day very specifically and I hope that no one ever has to go through what we did. I hope that everyone takes this day seriously, not because of its penetration into the news, but because of its ramifications and its consequences on American society.quote>

For a while now, we have heard that our infrastructure is aging but there hasn't been any real focus on it.   Then that bridge collapsed and most people still aren't paying attention.

Originally posted by: manticorefan

The article I cite is from WorldNetDaily, a site which has its flaws. quote>

Well, if you google it, it says it is "Independent conservative news website with an emphasis on aggressive investigative reporting and gossip."

Another place where the line between real news and gossip is being blurred.  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Most of the infrastructure of the big cities is over 100 years old.  Sewers and water systems are all on the verge of collapse.  At budget time, city councils find cutting sewer and water maintenance and provisions for replacement are easy targets when a sacred cow needs funds.  All this self-serving in councils across the land is going to kill a lot of us someday.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

US Envoy attends Hiroshima ceremonies for the first time ever.  New York Times

I guess they felt safe enough now, after 65 years  There are probably no survivors left to face.

[hamsterTK 93]

I wish I had the knowledge and research skills to dig up any audits of decaying infrastructure. What is the proportion of vital versus vestigial here?

Among the thousands of crappy bridges, how many are on secondary roads, or little used rail lines? Things aren't meant to last forever. Over time people and economic activity shifts from place to place, leaving behind facilities and infrastructure that is no longer necessary. We've talked about freeway deconstruction before on this forum. What would happen if a rust belt city that is seeing negative population and job trends tore down rather than replacing some of its highway system? It might hurt certain areas of the city, but in the big picture, is keeping something worth the costs in the long run? Hell, what about tolling? If toll roads can hypothetically pay for themselves why not build more of them?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Interesting you should think of infrastructure as roads and highways.  There is a lot more to it than that.  What about the sewers and waste water treatment plants, the fresh water supply, including the underground piping, the water tanks, etc.

I know the Romans do sewer maintenance, because I saw a TV special recently on the Cloaca Maxima that was built by the Romans over 2,000 years ago.  They are quite proud of it, and all the stuff attached to it, for such a stinking hole.  One wonders if the local city fathers take such pride in their works or just consider it an afterthought at budget time.

Not only are the peoples of North America courting highway disasters, but also serious diseases like typhus if anything happened to the water infrastructure.

As for the idea of removing some battered old bridges and underpasses, well it makes work, and times are hard.  If a city is on a down slope, downsizing might very well make sense.  There is a movement to move farming into disused areas of Detroit.

[Duke87 1,070]

You don't necessarily need to go through the bother of removing an old bridge. You can simply close and abandon it. In hard times, it's an easy way to save some money.

This is basically what has happened with the 100+ year old Main Street bridge here in Stamford. It was closed to traffic in 2003 after badly failing an inspection, but it's still standing (and still open to pedestrians and cyclists). There are plans to tear it down and replace it with a new pedestrain-only bridge, but funds have yet to be found to do so.