US Debt

[JanYpe 17]

Originally posted by: toxicpiano

I hope you appreciate that China has the largest army on the planet:

"With 2.25 million active troops, the People's Liberation Army (PLA) is currently the largest military in the world. The PLA consists of an army, navy, air force, and strategic nuclear force."quote>

True, but having a lot of guys and getting them to someplace where they're useful are two different things entirely.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: Odainsaker Hehe, wait till you start looking at the commodities and futures markets, where contracts and promises circulate for more of a particular commodity than could ever possibly exist in reality. As an example, we are trading on the markets more promises of platinum than has ever been mined in the history of mankind. This seemingly counter-intuitive system works so long as we are never called upon to pony up all at once, and contracts just change hands until they are bought back or settled, never actually being tied to any identifiable quantity of existing platinum. Physically possessing the actual material promised is not the point; it is the value applied to the traded contract itself that matters.

Which may also suggest that hoping for a gold standard or an underlying precious material basis for money is also futile.

quote>

However, a properly implement precious materials standard for money isn't based off of the futures market.  It's nothing more than the government regulating the amount of currency in circulation to a ratio of one dollar of currency to one dollar's worth of a precious material.  If the government had sixty trillion dollars worth of precious metals saved away, then there could be sixty trillion dollars worth of money in circulation.  It's worked beautifully before, and it would do so again.

[pepsi71ocean 2]

Originally posted by: JanYpe

Originally posted by: toxicpiano

I hope you appreciate that China has the largest army on the planet:

"With 2.25 million active troops, the People's Liberation Army (PLA) is currently the largest military in the world. The PLA consists of an army, navy, air force, and strategic nuclear force."quote>

True, but having a lot of guys and getting them to someplace where they're useful are two different things entirely.quote>

 

it can be done with some difficulty, none to big tho. With a 2.25 million man army and over 10 million for any type of immeadiate reserves the chinese could invade via a land rout over alaska. I could draw up invasion plans to invade any country on this earth. and give me a stragegy and i can change and modify my plans. I play a game with people at school that a cross breed between A&A and Risk. Ive wone more times than ive lost. I've played risk, and axis and allies and i knoiw i could do it. Numbers will do it. You have seemed to forget that while china lacks a proper invasion navy, it does have the capibliblity to air drop thousands of soldiers as a opening strike, dropping maby 3 or 4,000 solders near a small port the chinese could then bring in troop carrying ships and land them in a small port, now that an invasion. Look at Anizo for this. Or the chinese could try and build an invasion fleet, in which case one can look no farther than Operation overlord for this. The american navy has no invasion fleet before it, and yet everything was done, and the invsion was a success over all. IMO its quite possiable.

[JanYpe 17]

I'm not saying that it absolutely can't be done, but it's unlikely and wouldn't be a picnic. Driving up from China through Alaska would leave an extremely long logistical tail. And with a large part of the current US navy still geared towards blue water engagements, getting across the Pacific would turn into a shooting gallery filled with nice and juicy transports. I think we're getting a little too off topic with this.

[Micah 16]

Edit: I missed JanYpe's post.

Pepsi: You are forgetting that America doesn't have gun control laws.  Though the actual military may only be 1 million, I'm sure the American citizens would fight for their land, family, and freedom.

But seriously, I think this topic deserves a seperate thread. This is about the US debt, not a Chinese invasion.

[coolotter88 2]

xD chinese invasion...that's just silly, you can't invade something that's already overrun....*shifty eyes*

I think chinese invasion would probably take the form of the US mortgaging states or something xD.

"yeah, japan, you can have washington and China basically already owns california and germany can have pennsylvania or something."

I mean, seriously, there are some states that wouldn't be missed...like north dakota, idaho, georgia...xD

[hamsterTK 93]

Pepsi: You are forgetting that America doesn't have gun control laws. Though the actual military may only be 1 million, I'm sure the American citizens would fight for their land, family, and freedom.quote>

Well im sure all of you took history classes and have heard of the the "militia myth".....but hey whatever

If another country invades the US, dont waste your time, Go join the real army. Real life is not like that movie Red Dawn

a large scale insurgency would still work of course, but things could get done cleaner if everyone volunteered and worked with the system that is already in place

[JanYpe 17]

Real life is not like that movie Red Dawn quote>

 WOLVERINES!

[Micah 16]

"militia myth".....but hey whatever quote>

Minute Men at the southern border?

Hrmph.... guys.... focus. (You know, I think this is actually interesting to talk about. I wish we could create a seperate thread to talk about this. Seriously! But, I have a feeling it would ugly real quick).

Edit: And trying to get this thread locked is unacceptable as well. (Following post deleted).

[+Guest]

Heyyy... Coolotter. I'm Idahoan! lol Although Idaho doesn't seem like it is contributing much to the United States hopeful decline in debts and supposedly would be great trading grounds to keep china off of the rest of Americas back? yah ok anyways Idaho may or may not be the BEST one to throw around considering how its only about 1.5-2 million people.. IF something like that happened to where we had to "sell" a state (never gonna happen America has way too much pride in unity) we might as well sell a bigger one like oh say... California. But I am not saying that if this ever happened i was say "SELL CALIFORNIA NOT US" ... heck wed probably be better off under a different government the way things are looking.. still.. This topic is getting a little out of hand.

Edit: And not to mention that Idaho is one of the few states that is NOT contributing to moral and economic decay. Idaho is growing bigger and a lot more enjoyable every year while the rest of the U.S. seems to go the exact opposite trail.  And I don't care that much if i am going a little over board on the whole defending Idaho but hey, the people from the spud state aren't as worthless as we look.

And I agree with whoever said that China would not ever attack us because of our debt, that would be very unlogical for them. Even if they did try to launch an attack we would whip out a good defense like no other. It would take so much money to launch an effective campaign that even with an extremely large workforce I HIGHLY doubt they would be able to pull anything really major off.

[Cob92 360]

Heres my suggestion to fix the debt: The government should stop funding the Democrats' welfare state and stop the mindless spending. As for those who believe in Bush's doomsday army: Bush is not trying to rule the world. If he was Earth would have been renamed "Planet America" by now. The USA has enough power to crush nearly every country in the world quite easily, except for China, which would be the only fair fight. Back to the debt. Why are people voting for the Dems in full knowledge that they will implement a democratic socialist economy which will send debt probably into hundreds of trillions of dollars.

[Q-Tips 37]

As living in Europe, i dont know much about how the Americans are doing. But it is noticable from time to time. For example is the US dollar on a record low value. So taking a vacation in the US is actually a good idea since the low value of currency makes everything cheap.

But whats up with all this comments about invading? In case you dont know, it dont work like that. If a country have problem paying debts, the world bank takes over and comes with rules and restrictions. Just take country's like Argentina and Brazil as examples. Its not like anyone invaded them just because they owed money. They had to strighten up and work hard to pay the debts. (correct me if i'm wrong).

And "USA have enough power to crush nearly every country in the world"???? If so, then why cant they get the situation in Iraq and Afganistan in order? And why do they ask NATO for help to solve those problems? And if they realy have so much power they can crush most countrys in the world, then its obvious one of the reasons to USA's money problems. And by the way, USA's problems in Iraq is one of the reasons for high oil prices, and as i understand, USA is importing a huge amount of their need for oil and gas, so thats also a good reason for getting in debts.

[Micah 16]

And "USA have enough power to crush nearly every country in the world"???? If so, then why cant they get the situation in Iraq and Afganistan in order?quote>

The US isn't trying to crush Iraq; it's trying to stablize it and that requires a massive amount of man power, money, and hope which is slowly fading away.

[manman99 2]

There was never hope to begin with, Bush went into war with Iraq because of a supposed bomb threat. Was there any bombs, no, so that was your chance to get out. But he didnt, and only one thing good came from it when we found that old dictator, I forget his name. Right now Bush and Cheney are on their own, they have no more support. Dont forget too, that Bush is the one who wanted to legalize all illegal immagrants, the bill wasnt passed and he was very upset! Im upset about all this red tape. So much corruption. Just take a look at New Orleans. The only thing Bush did is come down there and start hugging people. And yet we were the first ones to respond and help for the tsunami in Indonesia. There is no way he will balance the budge because of his lack of commitment towards his own country. This country really isnt at a prosperous time right now, and he chooses now to stay in war. The most pointless war. I think its worse than Vietnam, not including the death toll, which there shouldt even be a death toll! Sorry im a little off topic but I was responding to Micah's comment.

[Q-Tips 37]

Yes, i know USA is trying to stablize the situation, and i do understand USA never wanted to crush Iraq. It was not my word :"USA have enough power to crush nearly every country in the world", i refered to the above post.

What i was trying to tell is that its not so easy to just invade any country and therefor not the way that USA can crush any country like someone seems to think. It usually follows consequences with it. It cant be argued about the fact that there is still strugling going on in Iraq, and the fact that this costs both lifes and resources. And this do necessery cost money. So what i was trying to point out is that a war in Iraq might be one of several reasons for financial problem USA might have.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Everyone:See how easy it is to get distracted from the solutions to US debt? Besides, China is facing some very serious environmental issues that threaten it's own population, that may keep them occupied for a while...

[manimal_uk 0]

Just reading this thread. I heard recently that the UK had finally paid off its debt to the US from the 2ND ww.

I found some interesting facts and figures about UK debt.

Total UK personal debt

Total UK personal debt at the end of April 2007 stood at £1,325bn. The growth rate increased to 10.4% for the previous 12 months which equates to an increase of £114bn.

Total secured lending on homes at the end of April 2007 stood at £1,112bn. This has increased 11.4% in the last 12 months.

Total consumer credit lending to individuals in April 2007 was £213bn. This has increased 5.4% in the last 12 months.

Total lending in April 2007 grew by £9.4bn. Secured lending grew by £8.9bn in the month. Consumer credit lending grew by £0.5bn.

Average household debt in the UK is £8,816 (excluding mortgages) and £54,771 including mortgages.

Average owed by every UK adult is £28,189 (including mortgages). This grew by £165 last month.

Average outstanding mortgage for the 11.6m households who currently have mortgages is £95,871

Average interest paid by each household on their total debt is approximately £3,542 each year (this equates to 9% of take home pay).

Average consumer borrowing via credit cards, motor and retail finance deals, overdrafts and unsecured personal loans has risen to £4,537 per average UK adult at the end of April 2007.

Britain's personal debt is increasing by £1 million every 4 minutes.

Today in the UK:

* Consumers will borrow an additional £313m today

* The average household debt will increase by over £13 today

* 330 people today will be declared insolvent or bankrupt

* Bank and building societies will hand out £1bn in mortgages today

* Citizen Advice Bureaus will deal with 5,300 debt problems today

* The average car will cost £15 to run today

* The average home will cost £30 today to run

* Raising a child to the age of 21 will now set you back £23.50 daily

* The price of a typical house will increase by £46 today

* 24.3m transactions worth £1.3bn will be spent on plastic cards today

* £82m will be spent online today

* 1/3rd of all groceries we buy today will end up in the dustbin.

See you're not alone

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

manman: Nice, I love statistical breakdowns like that!

[manimal_uk 0]

Now are you being sarcastic?

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Warning: two post rule violation in progress! Warning! Warning!

manimal: No, I genuinely like them, a fan of probability and statistics analysis. Can I get any more boring?

[Micah 16]

Warning: two post rule violation in progress! Warning! Warning! quote>

Go to the Current Event rules just a few threads up and read my latest post.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

LOL trying to protect myself unnecessarily and impersonate the "Lost in Space" robot at the same time...*waves arms robotically*

[MrFingers 0]

Debt is a function of big government, which in turn is a function of centralised, inefficient and federal government. Thank you Abraham Lincoln and a big F U to all the stupid americans who idolise the man who ruined your country 150 years ago.

edit:

America is literally blinded with its infernal obsession with oppression and slavery to the point that it is incapable of differentiation.  Abraham Lincoln was an evil man who destroyed the vision of america that the fore fathers had, even his slavery policies were driven by a goal of personal profit.  This book opened my eyes;

http://www.amazon.com/Real-Lincoln-Abraham-Agenda-Unnecessary/dp/0761536418

(1) that Lincoln basically allowed an unnecessary and horribly bloody war to occur in order to further his political vision of a strong state; (2) Lincoln was a "constitutional dictator"; and (3) Lincoln was never terribly concerned with slavery as a moral injustice.

[Creathir 3]

Originally posted by: MrFingers Debt is a function of big government, which in turn is a function of centralised, inefficient and federal government. Thank you Abraham Lincoln and a big F U to all the stupid americans who idolise the man who ruined your country 150 years ago.

edit:

America is literally blinded with its infernal obsession with oppression and slavery to the point that it is incapable of differentiation.  Abraham Lincoln was an evil man who destroyed the vision of america that the fore fathers had, even his slavery policies were driven by a goal of personal profit.  This book opened my eyes;

http://www.amazon.com/Real-Lincoln-Abraham-Agenda-Unnecessary/dp/0761536418

(1) that Lincoln basically allowed an unnecessary and horribly bloody war to occur in order to further his political vision of a strong state; (2) Lincoln was a "constitutional dictator"; and (3) Lincoln was never terribly concerned with slavery as a moral injustice.quote>

 

Amazing. Truely amazing.

I would hold FDR responsible well before Lincoln...

The man instituted socialism in this country. Him combined with LBJ are why we are in the mess we are in. Those two alone are responsible for most, if not all, of that debt. Otherwise, our debt would be just deffense debt, which I have no problem with. (This is the required function of the government... not to provide food for the people.)

 - Creathir  

[Sticksboi05 2]

The debt is overhyped. You always go through debt periods and attempting the destroy the world's largest economy would not be a smart idea. There's a reason the U.S. got to where it is now and this whole oh we are in debt and the world is coming to an end stuff has got to end.

[Sirithil 1]

Creathir, you are dead on, and FDR's methods in instituting the New Deal bordered on fascism. All previous recessions and depressions in the American economy had resolved themselves inside two years. The Great Depression, obviously, was a particularly strong downturn, and while unemployment peaked around 25%, it had fallen to 14% by the time of the New Deal. In the first couple years of the New Deal, it rose again to almost 20% and did not drop much below that until the huge mobilization and total-war economy of World War II.

On China. I hate to say it, but taking over the world is just a little more complex than Risk or A&A. In A&A the first couple of turns will have a single massive battle in eastern europe between Germany and Russia and that pretty much decides the course of the rest of the game, nearly without exception. In hundreds of games I've rarely seen it play out differently. And Risk, when it comes down to it, is as simplified as war-games get. Board games that play out in an afternoon are in no way a simulation of an actual world war - the combinations and permutations of events and chance, unit capabilities, weapons, equipment, tactics, strategies, and the capabilities of individual officers and leaders on the ground are literally as countless as the stars in the sky and no plan of battle survives enemy contact.

You cannot, cannot, cannot compare the idea of sending the PLA across the Pacific to Overlord by any measure. Overlord was an invasion across the roughly twenty miles of the English Channel under the cover of inclement weather and caught the Germans completely by surprise. A Chinese invasion of the US would require travelling literally hundreds of times that distance across the ever-sunny Pacific past scores of islands with US bases on them and under the watchful eye of satellites. The US would see them coming thousands of miles out and it would be a cruise-missile turkey shoot. The Chinese navy is miniscule compared to the USN and China in general has about as much power-projection capability as a random rock.

Alaska? Ridiculous. Let's say, just for a moment, that somehow they manage to move that huge force up through Siberia without anyone noticing. Let's say, even, that they manage to get across the channel to Alaska. Well, then they're screwed. Again, unlike Risk or A&A, the world is not an endless flat plain of grass with cities on it. There's a thing called terrain, and Alaska is ice, forest, and mountains. None of which is exactly good terrain for Chinese military doctrine - the human wave of ablative meat and the swarm of thousands of Soviet-era tanks. There's, what, two roads out of Alaska? Through mountains? You could bottle the Chinese up there for months, and if necessary, let winter do the rest.

Airborne invasion? Theoretically, let's concede the idea of some transport planes getting past American AA and who knows, maybe even the air force's F-22 wolfpack, and drop soldiers into a port. Let's say they even take it. The reinforcing invasion fleet still dies horribly on the crossing, and the forward force - by necessity a light one, due to the means of their arrival - is cut off and utterly doomed.

You're putting thought into this, which is good, but it could never happen, not without a massive paradigm shift in geopolitical and military power.