Capitalism versus Socialism

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: krbe

Originally posted by: Duke87 In the days of old, no one from Africa ever met anyone from Asia or even knew what Asia wasquote>

That must have been a really long time ago; we've more interaction with each other than most think.quote>

Well, I was talking about prehistory (think Neanderthals, here...), though even in the classical era your average Joe would not have any interaction with people from other parts of the world, even if people did trade with each other by various means.

For the European side of history, you have the Romans which came across much of North America, and deep into the Middle East; the Vikings sailed to America, deep into Russia and along the African coast by the turn of the first millenia after Christ; Marco Polo went to China, and Dengis Khan tried to occupy Europe. Later on, Spain, Portugal, Britain and France tried to conquer every square centimetre of the world.quote>

I follow you completely except for Romans in North America. I think you meant Europe.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: Duke87 I follow you completely except for Romans in North America. I think you meant Europe.quote>

 

There is ample evidence of Romans in North America. Roman coins have been found, as have amphora in the Gulf of Mexico and possibly even a Roman cemetery. There are a few sources, I'll let people research it for themselves. Some sources are of dubious character, I will admit. Some skepticism is called for. Dr Naomi Norman, University of Georgia professor and member of the Archaeological Institute Of America is a specialist on Romans in America.

Other surprises? 

The Vikings who landed at L'Anse aux Meadows were almost all killed by the native Americans; supposedly it took 3000 to eradicate 100 Vikings, and the natives nearly lost. This is said to have occurred around 1000 AD in the area of modern-day New England. It is recorded by the writings sent back to Greenland with a few survivors; the settlement was abandoned. Viking runes and stela have been found in Minnesota, among other places.

Stones with Hebrew writing circa 100 AD... in Bat Creek, Tennessee(!)

The Chinese visited Mexico in 426 BC, and called it the Fu Sang. This one is also a little unclear, it depends on whose definition of li ones uses. The li was the unit of measure in use in Imperial China, and the difference in definition could make Fu Sang Japan, or British Columbia.

I guess America has always been an immigration melting pot.

Way off-topic. 

Um,...Capitalism will triumph!

[Frankie_Grove 32]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

Originally posted by: Duke87 I follow you completely except for Romans in North America. I think you meant Europe.quote>

 

There is ample evidence of Romans in North America. Roman coins have been found, as have amphora in the Gulf of Mexico and possibly even a Roman cemetery. There are a few sources, I'll let people research it for themselves. Some sources are of dubious character, I will admit. Some skepticism is called for. Dr Naomi Norman, University of Georgia professor and member of the Archaeological Institute Of America is a specialist on Romans in America.quote>

I find that difficult to believe. The Romans excelled at naval technology, but long range travel by Roman vessel would have been impossible (their ships were built for shallow seas and shorter distances..). Unless a ship was lost and perhaps drifted to North America, there is no other way it could have happened.

I doubt the Chinese visited Mexico, at that time less advanced groups of Aztecs, Mayans, and other civilizations would have occupied the area. You know from history how they reacted to the Spaniards, and if another race (Chinese) had truly come to Mexico, it would have been in their history.

Someone tried to explain to me the knight's templar and their business in the Americas, but I remain skeptical until enough evidence presents itself.

So what if some artifacts have been found out of place, that happens a lot because thieves and grave-robbers have always existed throughout history.

[saltandsauce 0]

yes however do you think every roman went to france spain east germany or even rome? a lot of people have never been outside a five mile radius of where they were born (before transport was common)

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Well, I was talking about prehistory (think Neanderthals, here...), though even in the classical era your average Joe would not have any interaction with people from other parts of the world, even if people did trade with each other by various means.quote>

That's fair enough. But this was also due to quite a low population density; hunter/gatherer people were always on the move (but it took a little longer).

And about the classical era; I can only speak for my own experiences, but there have been found tons of coins and artifacts from the Roman Europe and later empires in Scandinavia. Slaves were also common to bring home from ex. Ireland.

I follow you completely except for Romans in North America. I think you meant Europe.quote>

It should be North Africa. Though mostly desert, there were some items of interest deeper into Africa.

[DocRorlach 25]

Originally posted by: El Burro What I would like to know is if history would perceive the Soviet Union any different if Trotsky had came to power instead of Stalin.quote>

 

El Burro: I recommend (very highly) Stephen Fry's "Making History". The basic premise is that a professor and a student manage to go back in time to load the only well in Braunau with an overdose of the male pill, thus causing Hitler not to be born. He then extrapolates a scenario that might have happened. If you can't find it, (privately) send me an address and I'll ship it out to you..

[DocRorlach 25]

Interesting that someone should bring in the Romans into this discussion: As far as I know theirs was the first "nation" that tried nearly all variations of government, from imperialistic despotism to senatorial republics, and all shades in between. And even by modern definitions they did integrate both capitalism as well as socilaism (even if they would not have called it that) into different eras of the Roman Empire.

They did indeed roam far and wide, as both traders and as conquerers, but a visit to the Americas is extremely doubtful. Coins and artifacts could have easily been carried over by later immigrants. As for the Chinese in Mexico, I think they would have the naval capability but their outlook on the world was one that China - in the largest continental sense - was the world. Hence their unabashed surprise when the first western explorers showed up.

[panthersimcity4 162]

 

Originally posted by: Boggy1My school of 600 pupils has three black students, two polish, a few English, one asian, and a single white African. Scary?

I'm positive that it is the same in the USA, that different areas have different levels of immigration.quote>

That's funny. My school has 2,500 pupils, has a large minority hispanic (I live in the Southwestern U.S.), asian, black, jewish and there's even a Muslim girl who goes to our school.

My mom immigrated from Poland in the 80's via a cargo ship to New York. She lived in Brooklyn and then moved to Tallahassee and then to Seattle. Most of the immigrants in my area are from Mexico...

Let's face it... Capitalism is appealing to people. On the other hand it's pretty cruel to impoverished people. But to be honest I prefer it to communism/socialism/whatever it's called. However I will admit that I've been told that there were no homeless people under communism. Then again the housing was crappy. Beggars can't be choosers I guess

 

[ilikehotdogsalot 311]

I don't even think it's possible to put a percentage on all the different kinds of people at my school

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: manticorefanUm,...Capitalism will triumph!quote>

Actually, neither will... Absolute Capitalism or Absolute Communism are both extremes that should never come into fruitation no matter what... eventually the world will find a perfect balance.

Originally posted by: DocRorlach

Originally posted by: El Burro What I would like to know is if history would perceive the Soviet Union any different if Trotsky had came to power instead of Stalin.quote>

 

El Burro: I recommend (very highly) Stephen Fry's "Making History". The basic premise is that a professor and a student manage to go back in time to load the only well in Braunau with an overdose of the male pill, thus causing Hitler not to be born. He then extrapolates a scenario that might have happened. If you can't find it, (privately) send me an address and I'll ship it out to you..quote>

Ah, Fry is brilliant... if I cant find a copy i'll certainly pm you my Address

[DocRorlach 25]

That's funny. My school has 2,500 pupils, has a large minority hispanic (I live in the Southwestern U.S.), asian, black, jewish and there's even a Muslim girl who goes to our school.quote>

Neither capitalism nor socialism - as ideas being developed - ever foresaw the shrinking of the world that took place since ca. 1950. Nor did the idealist thinkers reckon with massive legal/illegal immigration.  Modern governments, as far as they adopted one or the other system, still try to function on principles enshrined hundreds of years ago, largely paying only lip service to such fanciful ideas as multi-culturalsim, integration, melting pot, etc.

I'm a product of WWII, as seen from the victors: part American (with Berber origins often mistaken as black by American negroes), part Italian with French and Polish grandparents, born and raised in Germany, and I've lived pretty much everywhere else, including long spells in Asia.

And I have yet to find a government or a society, capitalistic or socialist, that has made more than the economically expedient attempt at integration of its entire populace.

[Motina 77]

There are things wrong with both systems. The U.S. spend the most money on health care, yet this is all towards pravite companies and the result is 30th in the world in term of health. Yet with a socialized system like the NHS in the UK, it is full of corruption and terrible facilities.

Currently the UK just accepted benefits to men with multiple wives!! Since when did polygamy become legal in the UK? I find the UK among the worst when it comes to shody acceptance of of questionable rights and liberty. Some right wing people will lebel this is leftist ideaology, but this is something outside the realms of left and right, and in the realms of a cancer.

[DocRorlach 25]

Originally posted by: Motina There are things wrong with both systems. The U.S. spend the most money on health care, yet this is all towards pravite companies and the result is 30th in the world in term of health. Yet with a socialized system like the NHS in the UK, it is full of corruption and terrible facilities.quote>

 

True enough: the NHS is definitely the most problemati of the European health care systems, and as for the US - despite all the clamouring and posturing of the current elective candidates, it's business model will never allow universal health care: it would result in massive lay-offs and a large number of bancruptcies.

Yet, continental Europe also had to scale back its social agenda because of rising cost resulting from the rising longevity of its population. So what is one to do?

[belfastuniguy 18]

British society needs a bit of a shake up since people won't do those jobs because they will be a laughing stock there are plenty of binmen, fruit pickers, stable boys (horse poo cleaning) and cleaners who don't mind the actual work itself but the shunning and general snobbery of other people who are working in an office and are well paid and work regular hours, in the 80s when all the coal mines closed people expect to do a different job every ten years instead of working at a job you can do for most of your life you are still open to promotion but you shouldn't demand it the promotion will come to you not the other way around (although you have to try and be noticed, theres a way of going about it)

and thats why we have to import people who will work in that way until of course they demand a leg up and so the cycle keeps going

yes you are confusing prejudice with bigotry, if prejudice wasn't beneficial then it would have been wiped out by evolution

and by the way if you think everyone will ever get on happy happy la la land then you are in for a huge surprise, since the global economy is having a cold people will fight with each other for jobs etc. and all these "integration schemes" and "melting pots" will become "waste of money" and "hellhole"

and before you go and say i havn't thought this through again look up the dictionary for prejudice it will say " to form an opinion before examination" not "to take all people of other races ,religions and greeds and burn them at the stake" now here is a scenarioquote>

Prejudice leads to bigotry...

As for your excuse for British people not wanting to take a cleaning job or whatever because they are worried what people think. They really believe that people think of them better because instead of earning a decent wage they lounge about all day wasting my taxes and not bothering to get off their ass to do some work.

I don't think so.

The reason the the vast majority don't work is pure bone idleness, laziness and a lack of self respect. The government should take their benefits off them after a certain time just as they do in several US States. This makes them go and find a job or seek further training instead of pi****g our taxpayers money away on whatever them deem important.

What exactly is wrong with someone earning more than a cleaner. If a someone working in an office doing a specific job is paid more then so what....wages in employment sectors are determined by the demand for those people, their skills/qualifications and how complicated their job is.

I'm not exactly what century your living in in terms of how you see the world of trade, economics and understanding the market. Coal mines close, so what, the world moves on and the country develops new employment sectors. That's a stark reality, dreaming of a by-gone era when everything seemed great (which in fact is wholly inaccurate, in those days widespread poverty, bad education, health and a host of other social problems existed)

yes you are confusing prejudice with bigotry, if prejudice wasn't beneficial then it would have been wiped out by evolution

and by the way if you think everyone will ever get on happy happy la la land then you are in for a huge surprise, since the global economy is having a cold people will fight with each other for jobs etc. and all these "integration schemes" and "melting pots" will become "waste of money" and "hellhole"

and before you go and say i havn't thought this through again look up the dictionary for prejudice it will say " to form an opinion before examination" not "to take all people of other races ,religions and greeds and burn them at the stake" now here is a scenarioquote>

I am fully aware what the word itself m

[belfastuniguy 18]

There is ample evidence of Romans in North Americaquote>

The romans didn't even make it to Ireland.....I HIGHLY doubt they ever made it to North America.

There are things wrong with both systems. The U.S. spend the most money on health care, yet this is all towards pravite companies and the result is 30th in the world in term of health. Yet with a socialized system like the NHS in the UK, it is full of corruption and terrible facilities.

Currently the UK just accepted benefits to men with multiple wives!! Since when did polygamy become legal in the UK? I find the UK among the worst when it comes to shody acceptance of of questionable rights and liberty. Some right wing people will lebel this is leftist ideaology, but this is something outside the realms of left and right, and in the realms of a cancer.quote>

Well firstly the ENTIRE United Kingdom is not one unified NHS trust, within all four nations tusts operate and each nation is allowed to direct spending and decisions to suit local population. I can only speak for Northern Ireland, but we certainly are from from having terrible facilities, indeed we have some of the most modern and up-to-date medical facilities in the UK including treatment and research centres that lead the field in Europe, an example is the Northern Ireland Cancer Centre.

Please do not generalise an entire nation when you clearly lack all the facts.

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguyThe reason the the vast majority don't work is pure bone idleness, laziness and a lack of self respect. The government should take their benefits off them after a certain time just as they do in several US States.quote>

Generally thats true for people in their mid 20's to 40's (or maybe even up to retirement age), but for people like myself who have just left College its extremely difficult to find a 'decent' job that your qualified for that doesn't require previous experience. In the past 6 months I've applied for 7 jobs, 5 I got rejected for, 1 I got an interview and then rejected and i'm still awaiting a response from my 7th... I read on the BBC website that 2008 is projected to be a worst year in two decades to try and find work... how brilliant is that, not just for me, but also for the Tax payers? The Government stops benefits after a certain amount of time, I think its 7 months... after that they find you a menial job with minimum wage that you have to take or they just stop your benefits... they make this pretty clear during your first Sign on. If i'm still jobless by March, its off to Tesco to stack shelves... honestly not the most productive job in the world...

[DocRorlach 25]

As an economist (albeit former one) I'd have to state that the common low-level reasoning that ties immigration (leag or otherwise) in capitalistic societies to employment levels has long been discarded, if it was ever really in consideration. The problems El Burro faces are more due to current market forces, a high level of automation, and the wholesale derugulation especially the global companies enjoy in the Western hemisphere. Governments, especially those in the EU, feel no longer obliged to true social reforms and the general voter's apathy left them open to the only influences that lastly matter: simply follow the money.

Belfastinguy: true enough, the NHS is almost as devalued as the UK itself, and the worst offences usually happen in England rather than, say, Wales or Scotland. Still, even Brown admitted that its overall state is going to be the hottest topic during his reign, right up there with terrorism. I still love going to the UK, but I no longer want to live there, it's been in decline since Margret tried to kill it with overzealous privatization. And I'm sorry, El Burro, but it is only going to get worse - you may need to relocate to where you skills are needed (I did).

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: DocRorlach As an economist (albeit former one) I'd have to state that the common low-level reasoning that ties immigration (leag or otherwise) in capitalistic societies to employment levels has long been discarded, if it was ever really in consideration. The problems El Burro faces are more due to current market forces, a high level of automation, and the wholesale derugulation especially the global companies enjoy in the Western hemisphere. Governments, especially those in the EU, feel no longer obliged to true social reforms and the general voter's apathy left them open to the only influences that lastly matter: simply follow the money.

Belfastinguy: true enough, the NHS is almost as devalued as the UK itself, and the worst offences usually happen in England rather than, say, Wales or Scotland. Still, even Brown admitted that its overall state is going to be the hottest topic during his reign, right up there with terrorism. I still love going to the UK, but I no longer want to live there, it's been in decline since Margret tried to kill it with overzealous privatization. And I'm sorry, El Burro, but it is only going to get worse - you may need to relocate to where you skills are needed (I did).quote>

I'm looking forward to the day we'll see the results of the growth of China and other former third world countries. I've never heard anyone talk about what they'll do the day the cheap Chinese workers has put everyone of the expensive American and European factory workers on the streets; who'll then pay for the Asian goods? Their own rising middle class are not nearly big enough to support their industries; when Apple and/or it's subcontractors has a city of 200 000 people only making iPods, you know this: they're paid too little to ever afford these products themselves; these big companies requires far less middle class workers in supporting jobs (lawyers, doctors, designers, teachers, pilots etc.) than American or European industries have (fewer large companies, a myriad of smaller subcontractors).

And the Norwegian financial daily  reported for about a year ago that there are 200 millions more Chinese agricultural workers that are ready to go into the factories. Given todays econocmic conditions; who the hell are going to support them? We're trembling under those we've got already.

I'm quite certain that this is not what Smith imagined when he was our leading economist.

And Burro, there is nothing wrong with checking the job market elsewhere. It can be a bit of hassle, but depending on your education it might be exactly what you need (the EU might not be a country like the US, but at least it's gotten easier over the years).

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: DocRorlachAnd I'm sorry, El Burro, but it is only going to get worse - you may need to relocate to where you skills are needed (I did).quote>

Trust me I have... Graphic designer is what i'm qualified for but i've tried that and failed. I've also went in for menial Office work but many of them ask for prior experience and/or a qualification I don't have (like an ECDL/ICDL).

I could always take up Fiction writing like you mentioned, probably mean getting a basic job to keep me afloat in the mean time though

[DocRorlach 25]

Trust me I have... Graphic designer is what i'm qualified for but i've tried that and failed. I've also went in for menial Office work but many of them ask for prior experience and/or a qualification I don't have (like an ECDL/ICDL).quote>

Graphic designer, eh? Your CJ shows that. But back to reality: here, where I live now, Belgium (and now and then Amsterdam, demand is high in that line of work, especially if combined with computing skills - in contracting (which is what I do, except I'm about as graphic as a blind worm).

Belfastinguy: when I said that the human disaster at Tiananmen Square gave the West a brief respite before the economic giant that is China truly wakes up, a lot of knowledgeable folks looked at me as an inhumane alien; but you are right - for now! China will turn faster into a fullfledged middleclass capitalistic society before we'll know it.

[BurroDiablo 222]

Well, I don't see them becoming more Capitalist than the US, the most they they might do is abolish the single party system and create a slightly free-er market.

[DocRorlach 25]

Originally posted by: El Burro Well, I don't see them becoming more Capitalist than the US, the most they they might do is abolish the single party system and create a slightly free-er market.quote>

 

Au contraire: they certainly will. In fact they are, by nature, except that the legacy of Mao is holding back the full explosion which will come as day follows night. Right now the politici can still maintain the tight grip they have on the citizen. But money and the rising accumulation of wealth will take care of that in the next five decades. And unless Europe and the US can find an accommodating, economical answer to that fast, the east will rise and the west will decline. All you have to do is look at what happened in India those past twenty years!

[Motina 77]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy]Please do not generalise an entire nation when you clearly lack all the facts.quote>

My apologies, especially when ALL my info comes from one in Northern Ireland, one in Wales and one in England. None of them speak positively. The one in England doesn't complain much, she is single and doesn't have much income.

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: Motina

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy]Please do not generalise an entire nation when you clearly lack all the facts.quote>

My apologies, especially when ALL my info comes from one in Northern Ireland, one in Wales and one in England. None of them speak positively. The one in England doesn't complain much, she is single and doesn't have much income.quote>

None in Scotland? All you need to know is Alex Salmond is a prat...

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: El Burro

None in Scotland? All you need to know is Alex Salmond is a prat...quote>

Oh no... What about the water? I've got a mate who still hold on the the American ones, but he's finally admitted that it's the bottle

[DocRorlach 25]

Originally posted by: krbe

Originally posted by: El Burro

None in Scotland? All you need to know is Alex Salmond is a prat...quote>

Oh no... What about the water? I've got a mate who still hold on the the American ones, but he's finally admitted that it's the bottlequote>

 

I'll be damned if I understand any of this? Water? Who's talking about water? ANd who is this Salmond chap? Admittedly, I know nothing about the big one up north, other than that it contains a lot of rocks and lochs..

[krbe 193]

The water of life, my friend. The Scottish water of life to be precise.

[DocRorlach 25]

Originally posted by: krbe The water of life, my friend. The Scottish water of life to be precise.quote>

 

Don't tell me: there's a "water of life"??? And moreover, the Scots have one different from everyone else???

I know this probably does not filter according to capitalism or socialism (or chloride, for that matter), but I'm just utterly gobsmacked by this..!!

[krbe 193]

This is were you get you Scottish Gaelic -- English dictionary (everyone has one of these in their bookshelf), turn to W for water and finds water, of life: uisge-beatha. Then you find uisge-beatha in the Gaelic part, which gives whisky, lit. water of life as explanation. There are many whiskies, but I find the Scottish ones to be the best.  Other nations also have the water of life, like the French eau de vie and the Scandinavian aquavit (which is a direct dervative of the Latin translation used for the rest of the liquids, Aqua Vitae).

In excessive amounts it may seem like the water of death, but it's of course meant to be enjoyed in responsible amounts.

If I have to put this in either the Socialism or Capitalism bag, I'll have to say it belongs to Socialism. This is because of the American drinking culture and lack of suitable venues (which was discussed in the primaries thread), which forces the Americans to stay at home, drinking only with their close friends (other capitalists, of course), while the Europeans prefer to drink in public, amongst both friends and strangers, the social, community way.

[DocRorlach 25]

Of course, how silly of me not to turn to my Gaelic library first. The famoso single malts, I heard about these; of course, as a non-drinker I would put whiskeys definitely on the capitalistic side of the fence: good ones are expensive; cheap ones kill the flies of the wall.