Pyongyang.

[marc 13]

Originally posted by: hamsterTK @marcaszar: I get what your saying, but half of that stuff is irrelevant and highly opinionated just to let you know.

I agree with bixel, if they want to be socialist, they should go for it an the US should keep its nose out of their business but for that to happen Kim Jong Il and his cronies need to go though it would suck to start a warquote>

Yes, I am opinionated, but in the numbered section of my post, I put down hard, cold facts. How can stating the US and NK both have armies over 1 million be opinionated? Or that the US invaded more countries than NK, for that matter?

Edit: Bixel you said "I pray there will be no huge creation of violence during the regime change." Don't worry- I seriously doubt this would ever happen. Koreans are by their nature a very orderly, peace-loving society. As this Russian tourist asked a apartment dweller: "

Regarding life in the apartment buildings - I asked the girls the following question:

 - When there are more than one apartment on a floor, who cleans the halls and staircase?

 - People take turns.

 - What if the person, whose turn it is, doesn't want to?

 - We will ask him.

 - What if they refuse?

 - ? (Clearly not understanding the question)

Judging by this and other similar incidents I understand that discipline is Koreans' blood."

So we can assume that if KJI disappeared (wouldn't that be cool), and the US ordered NK to embrace American-style democracy, the people would simply say "OK" and immediately go about doing it.

[hamsterTK 93]

Look despite your personal best efforts to some extent vindicate NK by bringing up the US's troubles it will not change the fact that right here and now they are a potential menace and the rest of the world is justified in its condemnation of them just as it was when we invaded iraq or china's looming over taiwan.

Im not ignorant or overtly nationalistic I just think this is going way too far not to mention this thread has strayed very far off topic and should be locked if it does not change course

[marc 13]

NK has a nuclear weapon because they think that after the US invaded Iraq, is planning to invade Iran, they will be next. A very accurate outlook- I can see their need for building up a defense fast.

About going off topic: Yeah, maybe we should redirect our posts to this thread instead.

Edit: That's fine if you are nationalistic- that is actually good. It's when it turns into fanaticism when it gets scary, and no one here is a nationalistic fanaticist. (Those people don't go online to simtropolis, they stay in their drive-in churches.)

2nd edit: (To post below, no point in making a new one) Yep- can't wait! Hope no sneaky tricks are pulled on us by these types...

[hamsterTK 93]

well at least you always vote...

[Gastly 0]

I've never seen so much concrete in one place...

[Baro 44]

Countries like North Korea make me think this is all some big game of Civilization, and North Korean is being played by some new idiot who doesn't even know the basic interface of the game. He saw the cool military and palace options, but the food and labour screen is 'too confusing' for him and he just wants to have fun and build all the coolest stuff and not worry about the rest. Everyone tells him he's a terrible player and really needs to learn the basic mechanics of the game (like feeding your people, making sure you can afford your projects) but as the player is only some spoiled suburban 13 year old kid he stubbornly keep playing untill he either gets bored or he manages to run his country into the ground.

North Korea actually is an increadibly unique country. Not even Stalin's russia was this oppressive and crazy. It's one of the only countries in the world where things are absolutely black and white. It's a horrible horrible country ruled by horrible people. And they're not even smart-evil, they're absolutely incompotent evil. They only know how to do one thing, and that's brutally oppress and isolate their entire population so they never learn just how bad their country is, how their entire lives have been lies.

The entire place seems like something out of a book, ripped from the pages of 1984 and 50's anti-communist propaganda. Sadly it's a very real place.

There are many very good indepth documentaries of people who have managed to get in and get a little off the beaten path. Even the worst pictures posted here are of the areas the government has poured all their efforts into putting up a facad of respectibility. But that's it, there's the capital and a few squares, the rest is some of the worst hell on earth starvation, slavery, poverty, currently existing today. There's no 'other side' to the issue, well i supose there are two sides to North korea. The terrible side, and the even more terrible side. There's no exuse for this country. It would be hillarious if it wasn't so tragic.

[ilikehotdogsalot 308]

The organization which took this picture is LYING to us. Let's look at the logic: Why would food in a country where it is not abundant be thrown out of a passing train anyways? The kids seem to be picking up pebbles; there is no indication of why food would be lying on a paved surface. (They would be looking through a dump or dumpster, not on bare ground.) The picture only shows a group of children, obviously one is curious enough to pick up an interesting pebble or coin, just like a child in any other country. In other words, many of the pictures we see are real, but the labels are lies.

This was actually on CNN Presents, and you saw when a train passed, many people ran to long for 'fallen fertilizer and grains that fell off the train'. You also saw this guy in the street, selling U.N rice which should have been distrubed for free, but he was selling it profit.

Ill would spends all his money on the Nukes instead of feeding his people which left the country bankrupt, and the UN sanctions and the famine has made people go to bed hungry at night.

I don't think CNN would fake something as serious as that.

@hamster, I think it's the whole little complex in the bottom but I'm not sure.

[mayormommy 8]

May I remind you folks that this is the Architecture, Urbanism and Planning Forum? Any more political comments will results in this thread being moved to Current Events. Otherwise please confine your comments to the architecture and city life of North Korea. Thank you.

[ledge69 0]

Well I still think there is an underlying grandure to the city. That hotel thou should just be pulled down, I understand they were still trying to get investors to finish it but I think its a monolinth that even if finished would not improve the city. Also they ended up building a new hotel in the end anyway.

[____----____ 37]

marcszar u just got my vote for pwnage of the year great post.

[Wolf_pt 7]

Originally posted by: marcszar Special Eddie: That's exactly the point I was trying to make! Glad you picked it up People had been showing negative pictures of NK and showing the US in a positive manner. I showed positive pictures of Pyongyang and negative pictures of US cities. In other words, I did exactly the opposite of what other posters did to show you can spin the facts any way you want! We know both countries have slums and parks. Your post just switched the stream of photos back to the typical, sanitized view westerners are comfortable in believing.

In my opinion, any country/organization with nuclear weapons is a threat to the international community.

On another note, let's compare ourselves to the North Koreans:

1.) US active troops= 1,422,494/ Number abroad or in conflict: 350,000+

     NK active troops= 1,106,000/ Number abroad or in conflict: 0 (The presence of troops everywhere does not indicate militarization, as this Russian tourist commented on his site, " Interestingly, all construction in the country is done by the army. As we can tell from the results, it is done rather well. From the point of view of an exterior observer it may seem that DPRK is a very militarized country. There are soldiers anywhere you look. No one can tell that they are just builders.")

2.) US persons in food insecurity= 38.2 million

     North Koreans who starved to death in 1990s famine: 3.5 million (Rations are distributed to everyone now, so everyone is guaranteed food, even though it might not be much. Apparently the food is very limited in variety and bland, but how would any of us know?)

3.) NK: freedom of speech is not tolerated at all and dissenters are quickly silenced.

     US: Anyone who says anything negative about the US is immediately branded as "unpatriotic," ostracized, and told to sit down and shut up or "go live in Iraq."

4.) US unemployment rate: 4.6%

     NK unemployment rate: 0.0% (Everyone is guaranteed a job, no matter how menial.)

5.) US homelessness: 3,500,000 including 0.9 to 1.4 million children

      Washington DC homelessness:  12,000 (This is who foreign tourists see huddled under our capitol in the "land of plenty.")

    NK homelessness: 0 (Everyone is guaranteed an apartment, no matter how unattractive)

6.) US Nuclear Weapons: as of 2002, 10,600 currently in the stockpile (Number of U.S. nuclear bombs lost in accidents and never recovered: 11)

    NK nuclear weapons: 1? (Unknown- also a few outdated bombs from the Soviet Union)

7.) US Music Video: (Yes I know Britney sucks, this is just to make a point)

    NK music video. Another.

Conclusion- Both US and NK music videos display normal teen romance themes, no "propaganda."

8.) US: Fanatical administration in control, many are signers of the PNAC's Pax Americana.

     NK: Fanatical administration in control as well, leader loves to watch NBA basketball.

9.) US: Invaded Iraq without its will, interfered in the affairs of countless Latin American countries.

    NK: Invaded 0 countries (1 if you count SK in the 1950s, but at the time it was technically one country still split into 2 "temporary" regions), intefered in the affairs of 0 countries.

10.) US: Leader thinks God is guiding him, told him that attacking Iraq was the right thing. (Okaayyyyyy, whatever George)

       NK: Leader is idolized as well, however it is an ancient Asian tradition (China, Japan, Korea) of having very high respect for the person in power.

11.) North Korean sensationalism.

    American Conservative Sensationalism.

Both countries seem pretty similar to each other. Both have strengths and weaknesses.quote>

Very similar coutries

PYONGYANG

Washington DC

[hamsterTK 93]

I don't think CNN would fake something as serious as that.quote>

the media says bogus things sometimes intentional sometimes not...Its too bad the majority of viewers didnt catch this one and bring it up sooner.

Although maybe by watching the rest they are right I am still suspicious of that pic...

....

Err anyways, back on topic, i found an interesting site about the Pyongyang Metro

http://www.pyongyang-metro.com/\

you just have to read it, but its interesting how much of the system is built for defense purposes and that there might be secret lines for government officials only

according to that site they also have trams. The lines are actually very new, from the 90's but because they use retro stuff from eastern europe they look much older

[ilikehotdogsalot 308]

Here are some of the City's transportation.

Bus.

Street Car/bus.

Metro.

Ferry.

And the railroad.

Oh, and you guys, tomorrow at 7am EST in Good Morning America on ABC, Diane Sawyer is reporting from North Korea, It should be interesting to see the city from a journalist's viewpoint.

[Baro 44]

It's scary how EMPTY all the pics are. The streets, trains, sidewalks, everything always looks so so empty outside of staged events. Like a giant ghost town.. ghost country.

[marc 13]

You know- I've always wondered about the trolleybuses. Not just in Pyongyang, but in any other city that still has them. What happens if the pantograph slips out from under the wires? (Or is it somehow fixed to the wires) If it can slip out, does the bus have some sort of backup power that will allow it to drive back under the overhead wires or does the driver need to step out and use some sort of tool to pull the pantograph back under the wires? I know trolleys/trams don't have this problem because they have fixed paths on tracks.

By the way, the trainsets Pyongyang uses on the subway are the exact same as the ones used on Berlin's S-Bahn to this very day. It's also interesting to note how energy hardships have forced them to modernize more than they probably normally would- for example, all of their trams/trolleybuses (at least in Pyongyang) and especially their railroads are electrically powered. So in that respect they save fuel and are on par with Europe while ahead of the US. (Not intentionally, of course.) Many of their railroad trainsets seem to be East German. (I'm a railbuff and would love to find out where they were built.)

ilikehotdogsalot- Yeah, fat chance she could ever get inside NK. At this point, NK won't let any American in. She'll probably stand in front of a cardboard cutout in Seoul with a photo of a slum pasted onto it and with sounds of moaning and hardship dubbed in.

Edit: Or would she actually try to sneak in to North Korea? Haha, what a riot! A person actually trying to get in to NK! There's a real "Goodbye, Lenin" moment!

2nd Edit: No point making a new post... Lets take a trip into the North Korean countryside, which is very different than its urban areas as in many other Asian countries:

Because of the oil shortage, these trucks have been modified to run on wood (You can see a pile in back- these are not steam-powered, but rather have a modified internal-combustion engine.) I believe Germany resorted to such measures during wartime as well when it ran low on oil.

Small village near the foothills. You can see the wide floodplains surrounding the river.

19th century shacks (similar to our southern shotgun shacks) still remain in some rural areas, albeit powered by electricity nowadays.

Farming done as it was for thousands of years- through immense human and animal effort...

An electric train speeds through the countryside on what looks to be a hot day.

Run-down shacks cluster around an unpaved street- although some have rudimentary TV aerials. Although the tourist commented that South Korean villages look pretty much the same.

Another village spreading up the hillside. Two cellular phone towers can be seen on the hills- mostly used for military communications.

Rice growing in a field with airport communication aerials nearby.

Farmer's hut in the morning haze.

Waterfall on Mt. Myohyang. North Korea has incredible natural beauty.

[ledge69 0]

The systems I know the driver has to reconnect there is a special tool weather this is on the bus itself I don't know as it has to be fairly long, specialy if it's a double decker.

[ilikehotdogsalot 308]

ilikehotdogsalot- Yeah, fat chance she could ever get inside NK. At this point, NK won't let any American in. She'll probably stand in front of a cardboard cutout in Seoul with a photo of a slum pasted onto it and with sounds of moaning and hardship dubbed in.

I'm not joking

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2572077

And here's a video I found on Youtube....

Here's the city at night!

[panthersimcity4 162]

I hate to say, but the U.S. is really bad at poverty. Alot of people are suffering form poverty, but rich people with their giant SUV's, air conditioning, and hot mocca's don't realise the people who are suffering because other people are better off. Jesus told the story about the poor beggar who died at the gate of a rich man, who would not let him in. The poor man went to heaven, and the rich man suffered from his self-indulgience.

What I'm saying is, rich people need to stop indulging themselves and help the poor, even if they are addicted to drugs. Many of us try to justify our greed by saying that most poor people inflicted it upon themselves, but that's not true for everyone. Even if they are on drugs, we should help them get over it. Maybe one day everyone will be equal... and nobody will be more advantaged by race, color, gender, or age.

EDIT: Please stay on topic, folks - MM

[ilikehotdogsalot 308]

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2576728

The video of Diane in North Korea that aired this morning on Good Morning America

[jaaktrumm 0]

marcszar

I ride trolleybuses every day. Sometimes they do lose connection with the overhead lines, most of the time this happens in places where the line splits into two separate lines. The bus stops, the driver goes out with rubber cloves and yellow safety west and pulls the pantograph back under the wires. The process of pulling the pantograph back takes a few seconds. However, the whole system seems to be flexible enough so that the trolleybus can easily drive on the lane next to the lane over which the electric lines are hanging.

A friend of mine, who happens to be a rail-fan, told me once that the trolleybuses have enough power in their batteries to drive a few hundred meters after the connection with the overhead lines is lost. But this is not a official information.

By the way, riding on the trolleybuses is fun. The acceleration of an electric vehicle is something cool, though its hard for the older people who happen to be standing

And into the topic, the NK trolleybuses seem to be quite old.

[ilikehotdogsalot 308]

@jaaktrumm that's pretty cool, i never knew that. i am wanting to go ride a trolleybus one day and i do agree they are quite old. did you also see the airplane in the video? it was falling apart lol.

[tydev417 0]

Most trolleybuses like the Silver Line in Boston have a diesel engine as backup in case something goes wrong. North Korea looks so depressing, the city is so grey and dead, it's scary. It's great to see that China realized the faults of Communism and have become more democratic. It's not even fair to compare Pyongyang to most built-up US cities in which the PEOPLE and capitalism attributed to those buildings and not the Government building every single thing.

[antronics 0]

..Question for everyone, no matter which side of the fence your on about this tipic:

    Which country do you think has the better quality of life, and for both countries, where on the totem pole is that quality of life when compared to other nations?

[marc 13]

Originally posted by: antronics ..Question for everyone, no matter which side of the fence your on about this tipic:

    Which country do you think has the better quality of life, and for both countries, where on the totem pole is that quality of life when compared to other nations?

quote>

That's a really broad question and can be interpreted thousands of ways- maybe we should redirect responses to a different thread so this one doesn't get off topic. (I have a sample interpretation waiting...)

[Micah 16]

Agreed. This topic is starting to move to the border line of another thread. 

Besides that, I'm sort of surprised to see how some people are able to relate DC to Pyongyang. Well, although certain parts of DC may look like Pyongyang, at least those buildings were built by people who had the freedom to build them. Those buildings in Pyongyang are built so that the people of North Korea will be in Kim Jong-il's eyes (most people are ordered to live there)while the buildings in Washington DC are built there whether the people want to live there or not (Capitalism).

[marc 13]

Originally posted by: Micah

I'm sort of surprised to see how some people are able to relate DC to Pyongyang. Well, although certain parts of DC may look like Pyongyang, at least those buildings were built by people who had the freedom to build them. Those buildings in Pyongyang ...most people are ordered to live there...while the buildings in Washington DC are built there whether the people want to live there or not (Capitalism).quote>

True, but in Pyongyang, those with the means (gov't employees) actually get to live in whatever they want- palace or shack. Everyone else (in Pyongyang) lives in the same type of apartment, regardless of social status. So there is at least equality among the normal classes, even though the government elite is favored.

Very few people in DC (excluding the yuppies who arrived in the 90s) actually choose where they want to live. The unfortunate low-income people don't have the means to live in any other place- they don't choose their house. Many of the pictures I showed were government-subsidized or gov't foreclosed properties designed to serve as corrals for poor people rather than solving their economic problems. In NYC for example, I think the city owns more housing units than private landowners. Until 40 years ago, unless you were a white male, you definitely couldn't choose where to live. (But apparently we had capitalism 200 years before then as well.) And today this condition still exists for minorities. And while people can't choose housing in Pyongyang, at least all the housing provided to the common people is equal, whereas here you can easily tell someone's socio-economic status based upon how run-down their house is.

Also, there's incredible waste in some free-market "choice" housing. Although Pyongyang housing gets drab after being the same for half a century, we build a house, let it get abandoned, tear it down, build another, let it get abandoned... and on and on.

[tydev417 0]

marcszar, why are you even comparing the US to North Korea at the same level? It's a communist country, nothing more needs to be said after that. The government controls every aspect of their nation. We have the people have power, freedom and rights over here and are actually allowed to leave the country if we choose to.  The Government doesn't force us to do anything but to pay taxes.

Okay, I've had enough. You all can go continue your discussion of North Korea over here.

Thread closed - MM