will_silver00

Here it is then. Its taken me quite a while to get this City Journal ready for release, but tonight's the night. This is my first City Journal. Otranto is built in an Anglo-Dutch, Franco-Spanish style, that tries to encorporate the best bits of many European cities that I've visited, including London, Paris and Barcelona. It is presented here as a City of Culture, and let's hope that it wins the coveted title for 2005! The word in the halls of the National Assembly is that an Olympic bid is being put together as well, but that's for the future. Althought I've spent a long time working on this, the city is still in its infancy, and please expect continued growth as the city expands. In contrast, Otranto itself has a long history, and it dates back to around 500 BC, with Celtic settlements around what is now the recreational Dupont Island. River movement and changing land usage, particularly during the refortification of the city during the 30 Years War between 1618-1648, have meant that these sites are now lost. ^ Dupont Island ^ There was also a Roman influence at Otranto. The 4th Army arrived by sea around 215 BC, and successfully captured and subjugated the native population, eventually honing the site into a highly lucrative and easily defensible trading centre. The fort of Otrantorium was based on the site now occupied by the Otranto Citadel, which in its current form is also a product of the 17th Century. The Romans were able to convert the largely marshy common land around the river into productive wheat fields, turning Otrantorium into a bread-basket for the region. The Roman shipping fleet was based at a now lost port probably near to the modern Opera House site. Otrantorium was largely peaceful for the majority of the Roman rule, and its continued expansion owed much to its increasingly powerful control of the food trade. As well as food, it traded in minerals, silverware and lumber, whilst importing pottery, oil and wine from the Mediterranean. More city history with the next update... Hope you like the city? Two more pictures: ^ Queenstown Island Port ^ ^ Magellan Place ^

A European wall-to-wall tutorial Prologue This tutorial has been previously posted in my CJ, but I thought it might help more people if it were posted here. I hope it's pretty self-explanatory, and it mightn't even be that useful for most of you, but if you do have queries, then please feel free to post them and I'll try and get back to you. Personally I haven't seen anybody else build European cities in quite this way which I think is a bit of a shame, so it's my pleasure to share this with you. BUT, if you've already been doing this for ages, why not share a pic of your creation on here? Will Introduction As we all know, the majority of the BATs available for European cities come from a handful of BATters - primarily Xannepan , Porkissimo , Erdmoebel , JEC and Vanderaap . With my CJ, Otranto, I have found Xannepan's and Porkissimo's most helpful, but most of their creations (Xan's especially) are large lots that offer little scope for variations when you're in the game. Let me explain. What I mean is that in European cities, whether in England, France, Spain or anywhere, there are rarely rectangular or square 'blocks' with a boundary of buildings and a big space in the middle. Instead, there are courtyards, more buildings, and all sorts that make any European city a dense urban jungle. I also feel that Maxis' roads are way too wide for European cities, so this guide helps to build without too many roads. Check out this site of Paris aerial pics , and you'll see what I mean. * I stress that this is all eye-candy. It has to be, as you'll see that roads are not always necessary. * Preparation This style of building hinges on filler lots that MUST have no road restrictions, which you'll need to make yourself in the LE. It's easy to do using Xannepan existing buildings many of which can be chopped down to 1x1 or 1x2. Porkissimo's and (most of) Erdmoebel's buildings are both ploppable, with no road restrictions so can go anywhere. You could even use Maxis' buildings to make some filler lots. I've also heard from pnorrell, that Gascooker's pub lots work quite well as 1x1 fillers. They're growable not ploppable, but appear easily apparently. Thanks for that man! 1.) Our blank canvas. 2.) Plop down some corner buildings. 3.) Fill in the gaps with some of your filler lots. 4.) And then fill in the middle space, using varying patterns, and shapes to create a dense urban space. Use all kinds of lots and different placings to create different effects. 5.) What about awkward shapes in the road like this? 6.) With Xannepan's lots, like this one, it's no problem. Use a 1x2 filler lot with details/windows on all sides to fill in the gap. You don't need to use a 90' corner lot everywhere! 6a.) Or with Porkissimo's 1x1 lot, make use of the decoration on the side of the building and place it at the end of a street. Try and find a lot that fits the remaining gap, like this other BAT of Porkie's. Lastly, I read on a CJ that some people where having trouble with Xannepan's new BATs: 7.) What you need to do is make sure you zone first, before you plop them. They're a mix of R and C, so zone that out. 8.) And then plop the BATs, and they should thrive. (Interestingly, I've noticed an increase in population/jobs because of these ones, but never any traffic? Wierd.) So, that's the end of the guide. I hope its been useful and shown you how to go from European cities that look like this before, to more realisitic ones that look like this:

Firstly, Latexmaali and GMT, thanks guys! Secondly... :: FINAL UPDATE :: This is my twelfth and final update, concluding the Otranto CJ, my Simcity career , and my time here on Simtropolis. I hope you've enjoyed reading this as much as I've enjoyed building it. Huge thanks to everyone who has followed this and posted here over the last few months, you've all been great! And thanks to the Simtropolis team for creating such a superb site for us all to share and enjoy! Maybe I should even thank Maxis for a great game... but we all know it's the myriad BAT, lot, map and mod designers who've given this game it's real addictiveness. I leave you with my first (but last, of course) five-piece Otranto mosaic in the Mickebear/Jeronij style, and six other shots of the main city. Thanks again, and goodbye! Will

Will, I think it's a very nice clich

Thanks a lot Dusk - that feels like a royal seal of approval! You know I'd forgotten about the many times I, too, have plopped C BATs straight on the ground!? Of course it works, doesn't it... Whoops. That said tho, these new ones by Xannepan do seem to be ultra-sensitive to outside factors and can delapidate very quickly if you're not careful. Anyway, thanks again for the input.

Oh. My. Goodness. Without a doubt, Marsalia is the finest work I've ever seen done in Simcity. It's just so beautiful! Just in this update, that little hill of older buildings in the middle of your mosaic is absolutely stunning - the stairs leading down to the seafront - the way all the buildings fit together perfectly.... And the seamless incorporation of the el-train... And your port area, which seems so... REAL. In fact it's like looking at a proper city, not some game. I can't believe how much work you must have put into this?? Massive congratulations to you - I would say that right now you're setting the pace with this CJ for future European-style city building, and I think this'll be a very hard act to follow... EDIT: Flipping heck, I'm busy typing this about Update A, and then find you've posted another update that's even better!!! Unbelievable.

Yours comments: dhoppeii: I think you're the first to mention the posters - glad you liked them. No idea where the theatres actually are in Otranto, lol, but I enjoyed photoshopping these anyway. I so want to see Les Mis, especially before it decides to stop its run in London. Must get up there soon. I'm also pleased that you found the guide useful. I did it mainly because I'm surprised not to have ever seen anyone else do it, so that's why I wanted to share my discovery. Kwakelaar: Well now you know! Thanks man. pnorrell: It will be a bit sad - I'll certainly miss it. I am satisfied with the following - I appreciate all my regular followers (including yourself of course!) very much, but comparing the 'stats' of views-to-posts Otranto is down a bit on the rest. However, the key to this (and life ) is to not compare yourself to others! That said, I half wonder if sticking 'European' in the subject line put some people off... That's great that you like the tutorial, I'm glad its been received positively. And thank you for your tip too! I'm toying with the idea of re-posting the tutorial in its own thread in the city-building concepts forum, as it may help a wider audience from there. If I do, I'll include and name-drop you for that excellent tip! I always meant to use Gascooker's stuff more, but it often seemed so small next to the Paris/Spanish/Amsterdam buildings... Another time maybe. Thanks again man. aasim45: They certainly are great - I owe them everything in this CJ, lol. Thanks man. Vitruvius: 'Killing' is such a strong word, lol. I think it's run it's course, and it's time to call it a day. As for the guide (that's so cool you've bookmarked it btw ), the infill buildings don't need road access. That's the key to the look, and essential for it to work. You see, Xannepan's early Paris BATs, most of Porkissimo's early ones, and the majority of Erdmoebel's never needed road access, so you can easily edit those to form filler lots in the LE. If you wanna make your own fillers from scratch, then you just use a park lot or something and stick the appropriate props on that, and they'll never need roads either. The consequences if lots DO need roads are obvious, and annoying. ktsurfdk: I'm sure your grammar and wording are excellent, but I don't speak Dutch I'm afraid. The Dutch wording in my sig refers to Bienefeldt's Dutch CJ Lentbury, not me. I'm English. Glad you like the city, and best wishes/condolances for when you leave Europe! Thanks guys! EDIT: Just realised I forgot to reply to anselmthecrack, from the previous page. Sorry mate - must have scrolled too quick and missed you!! Thank you SO much for your marvellous rating too! And welcome to Simtropolis as well!!! As for the European buildings, I hope the above guide and the links there answer y

First post here, and it's amazing stuff Vitruvius. I like the row-home rectangles, they're really very effective. Personally, I like the Royal Quarter. That path from the beach to the palace - simple but it works really well. And I wouldn't mind living in those R$$$ suburbs... Keep up the great work... [EDIT: This post brings me the big 1-5-0! ]

First to comment on the first pic! Well, I'm in even more of a tennis mood with Wimbledon around the corner and now this. Nice complex you got there, but one suggestion - why not link it all together with paths and carparks like PEGs trail kit rather than one-way road. Might give a more parklike feel? I think the night lighting sets it all off great tho! Looking forward to more... EDIT: I just noticed the date of your last post... is this CJ finished, or sleeping? Sorry if I disturbed you early, lol, just clicked your sig-link and posted... Will

Eeeek, it sounds very painful what happened. My sympathies to you, because there's nothing worse than a stupid corruption knocking out something you've spent ages on. I'm with Gemika on backing-up to CD. My plugin folder is at 2.5gb (goodness knows how or why, lol) and thats quite a few CDs, but its worth it. I think of my plugins like a fragile ecosystem, where everything functions just right as one, but one little problem could blow the lot. Backing up regularly preserves it. No updates for five nine (haha I can't count) days - are you going to concentrate on a larger city then, because of the farm probs, or is this an end? I'd like to say tho, your sundown pic is astounding. Beautiful stuff.

Mickebear, I have great pleasure in commenting here - your CJ is absolutely stunning!!! What I really like is that it all seems to be complete, and we're getting a 'grand tour' of the finished article. I've never seen that before in a CJ, but it works superbly. It really gives the feeling of a proper, 'realistic' city that you're taking us around. I'm looking forward very much to the next update. Lol about the zoom level differences on updates. I know what you mean, I think people always like a close-up. And I can totally sympathise with you about the time stuff takes. I've got a 1gb of ram, and its still brain-deadeningly slow. On mine, the game itself takes about 8 mins to load, 6 mins for each city, and about 2 mins for the landmarks menu... Craziness. Keep up the great work!

Well, Kwakelaar, I don't know about a bang but I do plan to stop, yes. So I'm just trying to make the most of the last few updates, that's all. Glad you liked the last update. :: OTRANTO BUILDING GUIDE :: (* Beware = This is pic-heavy. But they're only 640x480s *) I mentioned in my last post the idea of posting some tips on how I build urban developments. This is not meant to be arrogant or self-absorbed or anything, it's just that I'd like to share what I've learned. Perhaps some people might find it helpful? Introduction As we all know, the majority of the BATs available for European cities come from a handful of BATters - Xannepan , Porkissimo , Erdmoebel , JEC and Vanderaap . With Otranto, I have found Xannepan's and Porkissimo's most helpful, but most of their creations (Xan's especially) are large lots that offer little scope for variations when you're in the game. Let me explain. What I mean is that in European cities, whether in England, France, Spain or anywhere, there are rarely rectangular or square 'blocks' with a boundary of buildings and a big space in the middle. Instead, there are courtyards, more buildings, and all sorts that make any European city a dense urban jungle. I also feel that Maxis' roads are way too wide for European cities, so this guide helps to build without too many roads. Check out this site of Paris aerial pics , and you'll see what I mean. * I stress that this is all eye-candy. It has to be, as you'll see that roads are not always necessary. * The Guide Preparation This style of building hinges on filler lots, which have no road restrictions, some of which you'll need to make in the LE. It's easy to do using Xannepan existing buildings many of which can be chopped down to 1x1 or 1x2. Porkissimo and Erdmoebel's buildings are both ploppable, with no road restrictions, so can go anywhere. You could even use Maxis' buildings to make some filler lots. 1.) Our blank canvas. 2.) Plop down some corner buildings. 3.) Fill in the gaps with some of your filler lots. 4.) And then fill in the middle space using more filler lots, varying patterns and shapes to create a dense urban space. Use all kinds of lots and different placings to create different effects. 5.) What about awkward shapes in the road like this? 6.) With Xannepan's lots, like this one, it's no problem. Use a 1x2 filler lot with details/windows on all sides to fill in the gap. You don't need to use a 90' corner lot everywhere! 6a.) Or with Porkissimo's 1x1 lot, make use of the decoration on the side of the building and place it at the end of a street. Try and find a lot that fits the remaining gap, like this other BAT of Porkie's. Lastly, I read on a CJ that some people where having trouble with Xannepan's new BATs: 7.) What you need to do is make sure you zone first, before you plop them. They're a mix of R and C, so zone that out. 8.) And then plop the BATs, and they should thrive. (Interestingly, I've noticed an increase in population/jobs because of these ones, but never any traffic? Wierd.) So, that's the end of the guide. I hope its been useful and shown you how to go from European cities that look like this before, to more realisitic ones that look like this: Hopes this helps!

It's PAGE 7!!!! Thank you everybody for all your comments and support thus far! 181 comments, 6000 views - is that a good ratio or not? Too many lurking viewers I suspect! Please post before it's too late.... For those new to the CJ and seeing it for the first time now, please be aware that this one is drawing to a close soon. BUT, I invite you to review the previous 6 pages and let me know what you think, while there's still time!! Your comments: jacqulina: Thank you again. I have enjoyed it, but it will be a bit sad. I must try and finish your park before the final whistle. Mickebear: I went and had a look at Marsalia - they do appear to be related. We obviously have the same Xannepan / Porkissimo / Vanderaap / JEC genes. You CJ is really quite superb - beautiful presentation and city-building. Excellent stuff! You've hit it bang on - the LE is the key to a 'realistic' city. It's a tip I've learned off Marrast in his Eladremme CJ. aasim45: Thank you so much! le_harv: That's really cool you were able to post here - I appreciate it. Glad you like the mix of old and new - and that you found the links useful! We'll have to see about the airport links. I'm afraid I've made most of the stuff myself, so it's not gonna be found anywhere but my PC. As for the lack of chavs, I've heard that Burbery still retains a certain 'credibility' in the fashion emporia of Otranto. You won't find a cap for less than 50 notes. And for chavs, it'd need to be less than a fiver, and with a dodgy Chinese label in the back. Lol, hopefully they're priced out of the market. Oh, and Fred Perry is straight banned here. pikatchoum: I aim to please! newy2: Thanks very much - I liked the rain one too, it came out better than expected. flappie: Thanks a lot man sheep Vitruvius: Thank you for such kind words! Dare you ask? Well I dunno... Impossible to count. I sometimes play Football Manager and it has a timer which scares me half to death. If SC4 had one, I'd probably have a coronary. Best not to think about it. Sounds to me like you're trying a bit too hard. Play a bit more freely and build continuously, and then you'll find your own style of play. When you've done a large section, you can go back and make alterations, but at least you'll have made a good start to feel upbeat about! Might keep Mrs Vitruvius more happy...? I'm gonna post some tips on how to make Otranto-style urban developments next time. Hope it will be helpful for you? Laters guys

:: UPDATE 11 :: The Seaside Town of Beaconsfield Beaconsfield is located in the southern corner of Hastings Bay, and is a picturesque development dating from a sixteenth century farming and fishing community. It became a popular tourist spot in the mid-nineteenth century, when affluent, middle-class Victorians used to travel across from England to sample the excellent sea air, the European lifestyle, and the luxurious hotel accomodation. It's position away from the main port area provides seclusion and tranquility. However, in recent decades, there has been much development around Beaconsfield with the construction of further housing developments to the north and across the bridge in Seer Ridge. The addition of the M2 out of Otranto to connect it with the port has provided a, perhaps unwanted, permanent connection to the metropolis. ^ Seer Ridge ^ ^ The historic town-centre, and the Church of St Mary. ^ ^ Gladstone Hall. This local manorial pile dating from the late eighteenth century was once on the periphery of the medieval farming hamlet. It now finds itself well within the town centre surrounded by nineteenth century development, but does good business as a tourist trap. ^ ^ A postcard of Beaconsfield from the 1920s. Little has changed in the centre since then, thanks to a strict and conservation-conscious town council. ^ ^ A recent new development along the cliffs to the north. ^ ^ The dead centre of town. ^ ^ Otranto Waste Facility lies across Junction 4 (M2 and M3) from Beaconsfield. ^ ^ Came across these cranes moving all over the map one time I was playing. Goodness knows what the game was trying to do. At least I got a pic of it. ^ Please excuse not replying to your comments yet, I will come back to those later. Can only do so much at one time! But, comments / suggestions for this update are very welcome!

Time to get back to all you guys. pikatchoum: I'm pleased that you like it, and with the airport - yeah that new pack really makes a difference. jacqulina: Thanks for your continuing support. sloppet: Thanks man, sounds ok to me! Kwakelaar: That's great that you've found the history interesting. I know it's a bit of a mix of various countries, but anyway... Part Two: You have the honour of being first person back! I agree - the pics are a bit too grainy. I had some file size issues in Photoshop, and had to adjust it afterwards so it messed them up a bit. I'll try and be a bit more restrained next time, lol. Glad you liked Grosvenor Place tho. nooneatall: No worries! And thank you for your kind words! Kaze Progressa: I appreciate your concern, but we've all gotta stop sometime. Marrast's ending of Eladremme made me think whether I want to carry on as well. Happens to us all... except maybe Jeronij. NicolaiS: Thanks you man, there'll be a few more updates to come. PhilsCafe: Glad you like the night shots and close-ups. About the airport - I was gonna make an airforce base in the LE, but we'll see whether I get round to it now. Thanks! debussyman: Wow! Thank you so much - you're very kind! rewright: Those are really nice words, thank you. I'm pleased they come across as winding - Maxis' roads and streets seem so wide sometimes, its more like avenues slicing through everywhere! Thanks again! :: Update 10a :: Posters from Otranto's Theatreland All comments welcome!

Well, its been a while... And I'll start by saying thank you to everyone who has posted in the last month - I'll get back to that in another post I think. In short, my arm is still a bit sore, so I'm only going to post a small update at the moment. I'm thinking that I probably won't carry on with this CJ too much longer anyway for the following reasons: 1.) I feel I've done what I wanted to do with Otranto which was to try and create a 'realistic' European city, with a history and culture to boot. To me, it seems that each 'new' area I do is rather like others I've done already, and that's boring for me. Maybe (but hopefully not just yet ) it's boring for you too? 2.) To be honest, I'm getting really sick of the city and this region , and the prospect of plopping whole suburbs is too daunting... 3.) This irritating arm problem. So, what I'm going to do is post a few more updates to wind the CJ down, and then call it a day. :: UPDATE 10 :: North Park You've caught it on a pretty bad day, I'm afraid. It's wet, grey and dreary. But at least the sun came out at the end of the day to brighten the place up. (I've recently bought Elements 3 btw , thought I'd try the Marrast trick of sharpening stuff up. I think it's kinda worked. Maybe I overdid it a little...) ^ North Park's St David's Avenue ^ ^ A rainy day along Park Avenue ^ ^ North Park on a grey day, normally typically of England not Otranto ^ ^ North Park's Castlefield Station ^ ^ Grosvenor Place ^ ^ Sunset across the Cafe Quarter of North Park ^ Comments / suggestions etc, are still welcome!!

Thanks guys for the nice comments! Kaze Progressa: You're welcome! I bet the BATs look that much better in your city now! Thanks for the comments too. petriknl: Oooo, you would be most welcome I'm sure to schedule flights to Otranto. The Tourist Board will be very appreciative! On the church: I'm not entirely sure which one you mean, but if its this one: then there are two versions. Xannepan's original St John's , or the BSC Reward version . Hope that helps! FullStrenght: Thanks for the compliments! I'm glad you think it looks like London, that was pretty much the main inspiration for that bit. nooneatall: Man, loads of comments! I'm glad you're impressed! Not sure about Marrast's sea-walls. I've got them up at the port, but they're very repetitive and perhaps a bit over-used. The ones I've used here are PEG's old sea-walls kit, but you're right, its very angular. No perfect solution - I'd prefer to leave it normal SC4 cliffs so you get decent shapes, but that's not too realistic either. Also, glad you like the airport. You know I spent ages in the LE on that terminal and you say you'd rather see a BAT one? Lol, I dunno... . The airbase will have to wait a bit I'm afraid (see below). Good luck with Azureilles, and thanks again for your comments! jacqulina: Thanks very much! I'm afraid Jacqulina Park is currently on hold (see below), but I've got a nice spot lined up. :: Small Announcement :: I'm afraid I'm going to have to take a bit of a break from Simcity-ing, Simtropolis-ing, and the computer in general for a while, as I've got some pain in my arm. This kinda stuff aggrevates it, so I'm gonna give it some rest for a while. Hopefully I'll be returning at a later date to continue where I've left off with Otranto. All the best! Will

And... the bump that gets me first post of Page 6!!! (Contents picture under construction...) Thanks to everyone who's commented so far!!! Will

I think I'm gonna take the honour of 150th post if thats ok! Hope to see you soon frogface!

Many thanks jacqulina - I'm thinking of naming a park after you in honour of your frequent visits. Does that sound ok? And many thanks also to bienefeldt. I'm very pleased that Otranto has been added to the destination list of easyLent.com. Hopefully it will mean increased trade and tourist between our respective cities. Actually easyLent.com wasn't the only airline to express an interest in securing landing rights at Otranto International. After extensive discussion, a potentially lucrative deal has been forged with low-cost, no-frills, Irish-based carrier, Ryanair. I am assured that the discussions are all above board, and that there has been no evidence of any large sums of money passing from the accounts of Otranto Board of Commerce to those of Michael O'Leary. The new route will run four times daily between Otranto and London Stansted, currently for only

It's been a few days since I was last here, but thank you to everyone who has left comments! dhoppeii: thanks man! The street layout is always a challenge because of the constant 90' angles of most of the BATs. As for the roundabouts - well I am English, so its only natural... Kaze Progressa: thanks very much! You need to register on Simcity.com first then go to Downloads, then to the BAT section. They'll tell you what you need to do, but in short you'll need: 1.) Gmax (3D design programme), 2.) the SC4 BAT update for Gmax, 3.) the Simcity.com BAT update. I think that's it - then night lights should appear! jasperdeman.nl: thanks a lot man!! petriknl: glad you like it! That 'spiral looking modern tower' you're not sure about is London's new, world-famous, Norman Foster designed, Gherkin (or Swiss Re Building), so I'm afraid it was always gonna appear in Otranto! I take your point tho, maybe the closeness to the cathedral wasn't the best placing. Oh well. :: UPDATE 9 :: Otranto International Airport It's largely still under construction, especially so since I only recently found Joerg and Thalassicus' v2.1 Airport Pack, available as a zip here , with the associated thread here. But here are some shots of the building. Notice the changes from the old 'blocky' diagonals to nice smooth ones, and curves! The terminal building, divided into the main Terminal One complex in the middle, with a smaller commuter Terminal Two to the right hand side. Baggage handling and maintainance depots to the left hand side: The cargo facility: The northern end of the runways. The construction site to the bottom is a future airforce base: The final runway begins to take shape: The airport complex - I still gotta fill in the gaps with airport grass : Close-ups of the terminal. Terminal One entrance area: Concourse A of Terminal One: The baggage-handling/maintainance/freight facility: Please comment!!

:: UPDATE 8 :: Close-Ups of the District of Harmsworth Hopefully you've read the introduction to this area of Otranto in the above posts, so I won't say too much more here other than a little information on places and streets. Enjoy! Harsmworth Square, bordered by St Martin-on-the-Square Chapel: Rowcross Street Station, with the white marble De Vere monument next to it, and the Cartwright Central Hospital in the left foreground: One of the 1960s housing developments, Torrington House, on Fenchurch Road: A further shot of Harmsworth Square, which lies at the end of Wellington Avenue. The building on the corner, No. 25 Wellington Avenue, has recently become home to the Harmsworth branch of HMV. Boutiques and cafe's still occupy the ground floor, but escalators from a street-level entrance whisk you up to HMV set across the upper five floors: As one might find in London, many of the top international airlines like to rent an inner-city presence. Here in Otranto, fronting Wellington Avenue but also in close proximity to Rowscross, we find KLM, amongst others: A picturesque plaza once occupied this triangluer plot on Watling Walk, until the land was purchased for redevelopment in the late 1980s. The result was the Allender Building, with its unusual facade and footprint: The beginning of Wellington Avenue, as it turns off Millbank Boulevard into Harmsworth. This picture illustrates the density of building, and the number of rooftops in this part of Otranto: That's all, please comment!! I must also thank helomoto, for your kind words! And Darmok, thank you for taking the time out to read through the CJ! I'm glad you like it! Will