Should the UN be Immune from Consequences of its Wrongdoing?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Haiti Cholera Epidemic.

 

The UN posted infected peacekeepers to Haiti, failed to properly dispose of their waste, and now says it is immune from claims against it.  Maybe in 1947 they could get away with something like this, but now?

 

What good is having a UN agency on world health (WHO) when the UN is spreading one of the most disgusting diseases that strikes poor populations?  Population control?

 

Why would the UN post infected peacekeepers in the first place?

[macvirt 361]

The individual case is a topic in its own right, but no person or organisation with responsability and power should ever be excluded from accountability.

 

Not following such basic principles is counterproductive to any human dynamic. It is what leads to institutionalised corruption on one end of a scale, and the Neurenberger Trials on another end of the scale.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

In my mind the UN has committed a crime against humanity.  Whoever the on-site commander is should be accountable. 

 

You are quite right that immunity leads to corruption in those in charge.  Says something about the whole United Nations Organization doesn't it?  They have been acting like absolute monarchs, and it is time for a magna charta.

[LexusInfernus 908]

First of all, its not a crime against humanity. Its not like they deliberately posted people who were sick there just so they could spread that disease and kill a bunch of people. 

 

Second, the Commander of that mission is from a specific country. If you hold him responsible, you end up holding that country responsible, not the UN.

 

And what exactly is the UN? All the UN really has is a building. But other than that, its just a context that countries use to cooperate with each other. Blaming the UN either means you blame the organizational framework which we call the UN or you blame the individual members of the UN. Either way, they will all deny responsibility. 

 

Also the UN does not act like an Absolute Monarch. That is just ridiculous to say. The UN barely has any power, and what little power it does have, it has absolutely no means to enforce it. The UN security council is the only UN organization whose decisions are binding, but it does not have the means to actually enforce such a binding decision. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

That is the sort of argument that can be used in an attempt to make the UN's irresponsible actions excusable.  There is no excuse for infecting thousands of people with a potentially fatal disease.  Carelessness on their part does not make them unaccountable.

[LexusInfernus 908]

That is the sort of argument that can be used in an attempt to make the UN's irresponsible actions excusable.  There is no excuse for infecting thousands of people with a potentially fatal disease.  Carelessness on their part does not make them unaccountable.

Carelessness also means they did not commit crimes against humanity. 

 

And carelessness from who exactly? The UN? The UN is not responsible for the operational part of the mission, and this is clearly a fault in the operational aspect. So you would end up with the commander of the mission, or the guy doing the logistics. And those are not part of the UN as an organization, they are just put there by the member state. You could blame the member state or the commander for screwing it up. 

 

The real problem here is simply the way the UN has to set up a mission. It has no army and it has to beg member states to send troops. Most of the time, the majority of those troops come from countries with an absolutely worthless army, who lack discipline and training. Its really no wonder that crime, prostitution and human trafficking sharply increase whenever UN peacekeepers set up a base in an area. Then again, as long as the UN can't have a standing army of its own and it relies on troops from its member states, you can be sure that the quality of those troops remains poor and incidents like this will continue to happen. But yeah, like anyone is going to give the UN a standing army, that's politically unfeasible. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The buck stops at Ban Ki-moon's desk.  The Sec. Gen. is the guy who is responsible for the whole shebang.  If he picked an incompetent subordinate, it is not really the subordinates fault that he got in over his head, now is it?

[LexusInfernus 908]

The buck stops at Ban Ki-moon's desk.  The Sec. Gen. is the guy who is responsible for the whole shebang.  If he picked an incompetent subordinate, it is not really the subordinates fault that he got in over his head, now is it?

Except that Moon never picked that subordinate, nor is Moon in any way responsible for such...details. Moon is nothing more than the chair and public figure of the UN. In the end, the member states and the UN security council make all the decisions, not him. If some middle level civil servant screws up big time, do you blame the president of the country? Do you hold him responsible? Of course you don't because that would be ridiculous. 

 

And besides that, diseases like Cholera are inevitable when there is no running water for years and when the rubble does not get cleared and thousands of bodies are still decomposing beneath the rubble. You might as well blame the international community for spending the money in incredibly stupendous ways. 

[hym 358]

The buck stops at Ban Ki-moon's desk.  The Sec. Gen. is the guy who is responsible for the whole shebang.  If he picked an incompetent subordinate, it is not really the subordinates fault that he got in over his head, now is it?

Except that Moon never picked that subordinate, nor is Moon in any way responsible for such...details. Moon is nothing more than the chair and public figure of the UN. In the end, the member states and the UN security council make all the decisions, not him. If some middle level civil servant screws up big time, do you blame the president of the country? Do you hold him responsible? Of course you don't because that would be ridiculous. 

 

And besides that, diseases like Cholera are inevitable when there is no running water for years and when the rubble does not get cleared and thousands of bodies are still decomposing beneath the rubble. You might as well blame the international community for spending the money in incredibly stupendous ways. 

 

Depends on the situation.  Sometimes the guy in charge doesn't take the blame, and sometimes he does.  Regardless of whether he does or doesn't, if he can be reasonably expected to be aware of the problem(s) that induced the incident, he should be expecting to carry the can for it.  Even it was in no way his fault.

[AcmeSigns 97]

Its not like they deliberately posted people who were sick there just so they could spread that disease and kill a bunch of people. 

We really can't be absolutely certain of that. Man has committed untold atrocities against man for a myriad of reasons. Who's to say whether someone, somewhere did or didn't have a deliberate, nefarious agenda? Of course, I'd just chalk it up to typical UN incompetence.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-20024400 - An earlier part of that story.

http://ijdh.org/archives/15442 - This is an AP article from November 2010 from http://ijdh.org/cholera-accountability/news

 

The UN, as per normal, is sticking to it's 'I'm not responsible' tactic. I think it's about time to abolish the whole organization. The world isn't the same as it was in 1947 and the UN is no longer valid.

[LexusInfernus 908]

 

Depends on the situation.  Sometimes the guy in charge doesn't take the blame, and sometimes he does.  Regardless of whether he does or doesn't, if he can be reasonably expected to be aware of the problem(s) that induced the incident, he should be expecting to carry the can for it.  Even it was in no way his fault.

Yeah, you go after his immediate superior, not the guy at the top. In this case, the immediate superior is the commander of the mission, who is not part of the UN, but rather of the member state that is in charge of that mission. When the Netherlands screwed up and had 5000 people killed in Sebrenicia we got the blame, not the UN and not even the UN commander of that mission. So blame the Nepalese for not knowing how to properly set up a base and enforce sanitation standards rather than just go after the whole organization. 

 

We really can't be absolutely certain of that. Man has committed untold atrocities against man for a myriad of reasons. Who's to say whether someone, somewhere did or didn't have a deliberate, nefarious agenda? Of course, I'd just chalk it up to typical UN incompetence.

 

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-20024400 - An earlier part of that story.

http://ijdh.org/archives/15442 - This is an AP article from November 2010 from http://ijdh.org/cholera-accountability/news

 

The UN, as per normal, is sticking to it's 'I'm not responsible' tactic. I think it's about time to abolish the whole organization. The world isn't the same as it was in 1947 and the UN is no longer valid.

Whats the use of introducing a disease like this, that totally kills at random, but doesn't nearly have the mortality rate to actually kill off a significant part of the population. I mean, 8000 dead out of 600.000 infected and those 600.000 people are what? 5 percent of the total population? 

 

Also, while I agree that the military side of the UN is utterly worthless and needs reform, the UN itself still serves a very useful purpose. It has effectively created a safe environment for countries to talk things through, and the various of other UN organization do good work. UNESCO, UNICEF, all valuable organizations that do a good job. 

[Duke87 1,070]

The problem is, who holds the UN accountable and how? It's not like a company where you can sue them, or a person where you can bring them to trial. The UN is an international treaty organization. No courtroom has the authority to try them.

 

Ideally, whoever screwed up would be out of a job - but that requires internal policing. The only other option is for enough member states to clamor for action against the responsible parties... and not enough countries seem to care.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

In any hierarchical organization, no matter how large nor how well intentioned, there are always incidents like this.  The blame game ends at the top, and not lower. 

 

There was an actual sign on Harry Truman's desk that said "The buck stops here".  He, at least, was aware that if some private in the army murdered a prisoner, he was responsible.

 

It is time to remove the immunity from the UN.  This is probably not the only incident of the UN doing something that would be criminal if it were not for that clause.  I think accountability is clearly needed, and a branch of the ICC is where accounting should be done and publicly.

[LexusInfernus 908]

No, in a hierachical organization the blame game does not lead all the way to the top, at least not automatically. It stops at the direct superior of the guy that screwed up. Unless the superiors also screw up, thats where it ends. Otherwise there is no hierarchy to begin with and there would be no point in creating a hierarchical power structure if the guy at the top gets the blame for everything. 

 

And besides that you assume the UN actually is your standard pyramid hierarchy which it is not. The UN itself is basically the Security Council and the parliament. Military missions are ad hoc, so not part of the UN hierarchy itself, and where the UN is only responsible for the diplomatic/political side of the mission, not the operational/technical side. And the various other UN organizations again are not part of the UN hierarchy, but have their own power structures. If UNESCO or UNICEF screws up, you cannot blame Moon for it. 

 

Also, make the UN accountable, but to who exactly? Its an organization consisting of nothing more than a lot of member states, so who exactly are you going to hold accountable? The Member States? That is already possible. Or the UN as organization? Good job, you allow countries to commit terrible crimes while under the cover of a UN operation and then just divert all the blame to the UN. That is sure to improve things.